Jump To Lightspeed Archive
Thread: Ok I have been saying this in Beta for the past week so here it goes.....Forced PVP in JTL
BrotherDavius wrote:
Vicotnik wrote:
BrotherDavius wrote:
Vicotnik wrote:
Pay attention, I will say this again: This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with people wanting to solo these missions. Period. They are already almost impossible to solo, unless youwould happen to bea uber leet powergamer. Most people WILL need groups for these missions. THIS IS NOT THE POINT OF THIS THREAD HOWEVER. THE POINT IS ABOUT PVP, WHICH IS ALREADY STATED IN THE ABOVE REPLY.
BrotherDavius wrote:
Vicotnik wrote:
It already isn't quite realistic to try and solo these missions, not after the latest upgrades to NPC stats (The developers call it AI, but it completely lacks the I) and the Gunboats. This issue has nothing to do with soloing or grouping for these missions.
If one person can get a group of people together to complete the mission why can everyone else not do that?
My god man i did not mean it that way, get a group to help you against the other players and there is no need to shout if you had read the thread you would have understood what my posy ment.
Yet again: Pay attention. This is NOT about getting a group to finish the missions. This is not about getting a group to cover your back while you finish your missions.
This is about the fact that these missions are absolutely ruined by PVP. This is about the fact that PVP will be hurt by these missions. This is about the fact that these missions will hurt JTL.
That is what i am saying you should at some point need to fly in places where you will need your mates to protect you againts other players. If you had read my past posts you would have known this so you pay attention.
If no one can do it then yes then it needs fixing, but if some it dose not matter who can do it then thats how it should be.
If you have enough mates then this will not be a problem, it is that simple.
I'll refer you to my other post as well but let me just say this: JTL was built for PvP. It makes complete sense to havemaster pilot missions take place in PvP space. The point is there are some people who will be really good at this game. Those will probably get to the master pilot missions first. The great thing about JTL is you can't grind the profession by sitting in the squill cave and spamming special attacks. Grinding master quickly is going to require a lot of flight time and a LOT of skill. Some players will get there faster than others and some won't get there at all. If thiscontrols the number of master pilots in the galaxy I say "great! Finally some realism in this game". I'm tired of everyone being a jedi. I'm tired of everyone being on equal ground where there's nothing to look forward to. No challenge. Now we got a few master pilots out there owning up space and maybe it'll take a squad or two of us lower-level players to wipe them out. That's the kind of space combat I'm looking forward to.
fav wrote:
/bigsnip
PvP is what JTL was built for. Player vs. player in space combat. We're tired of firing on wave after wave of mindless AI TIEs. So if you really have a problem with that, then JTL is not for you.
/snip
Keeping PvP in JTL just gives players more options, so how can you even suggest the two scenarios are equal?
/snip
But its just foolish to suggest the DEVs remove an element of the game that other players HAVE BEGGED FOR just becuase you don't want to participate.
JTL was built to bring the Galactic Civil War to outer space, which is where it should be considering this is Star Wars. PVP != GCW. PVP is not all there is to the GCW. PVE can and should play a part in the GCW, both on the ground and in space. Why? Because PVE is a very large part of this game. That's why there are 8 zones of space where players cannot attack other players (unless they go overt). There are 2 zones that are all about PVP. And I think that's great. The ground game used to have those (battlefields), but they didn't work very well.
No one is suggesting removing PVP from the ground game or JTL. All we are suggesting is getting a PVE mission out of a PVP zone. It would be a bit less of a concern if player kills counted towards the completing the mission. But they do not. All this will do is upset a very large portion of the player base, when they've wasted several hours trying to find spawns only to get killed by another player so that they have to start all over again.
And among the upset will be people who LIKE AND WANT TO PVP! There have been several people who are all for PVP who are against this mission being in a PVP zone.
Keep the PVP zones. They are a great feature to have, especially for post-master content. Just get the PVE master mission out of the zone.
BrotherDavius wrote:
That is what i am saying you should at some point need to fly in places where you will need your mates to protect you againts other players. If you had read my past posts you would have known this so you pay attention.
If no one can do it then yes then it needs fixing, but if some it dose not matter who can do it then thats how it should be.
If you have enough mates then this will not be a problem, it is that simple.
Gaaaaaah! Keep missing the point, will you?
The fact that you need mates to do these missions, and the fact that your mates might be able to keep attackers off your back DOES NOT justify these poorly designed missions. It does not justify that:
1. PVP-haters/the PVE crowd will have to do something they don't want to do to mater their profession. This will only make them hate it more.
2. PVP will be affected negatively by this. - No one can come here and say thingswouldn't bebetter if Kessel was left completely to PVP. No PVE missions in there at all. As it is: Innocent PVPers will now be branded as griefers. Griefers have actual content aimed for them.
3. One player, with ONE single shot can end several hours worth of mission progress. What the hell is the point with that?
Vicotnik wrote:
Cuality wrote:
Lol! You are just getting silly now. If you dislike something to thedegree of hating or loathing them, does that mean you would fear them? No. If you would find onions to be the most loathsome, disgusting edible thing ever, would you fear them? Of course not.
the things that i hate... i fear. i hate sharks. dark water. clowns. i hate them because i fear them.
Oook. I obviously have no insight in your psyche, but I hate Formula One racing. I absolutely do not fear it at all, I just find it dreadfully boring. Fear != hate, no matter what Yoda will tell you.
Actually, its a basic tenet of psychology. In fact... you don't like Formula one racing because... you are AFRAID of being bored.
if they bring along 25 friends then i'm sure they will... its a give and take thing. when i get to master, i will more than likely be flying with my guild
Yeah, but in this scenario you mentioned, they didn't bring 25 friends. So shall those 3 imperials feel safer?
i answered this no doubt but i answer again. the imps would then bring more.
Yes, but this still means that the PVP (master)population in Kessel will be higher than in Deep Space.
at times... yes... but not when people organize to take down the various targets.
We both know that the population in Kessel will almost always be higher than in Deep Space. Even with Deep Space and the SD/base, there isn't that much to fight over. Once the novely about fighting over these two things will end, there will only be sporadic trips into deep space.
actually... there are bonuses given for destroying the deep space targets. i know most servers are into the whole guild war... pvp for the sake of pvp thing, but ahazi has always been a targeting server... we need things to destroy... and base raids are still common, even today.
i would count the missions as content. it is more involving than just killing random critters. sure, its a stretch, but the missions are still content...
It's a big stretch, that's for sure.
not that big of a stretch. the missions are dynamic enough and if you pay attention to them instead of clicking through them as fast as you can... they are actually fun.
Yeah, I dare you to find a TIE fighter and fit it with components that can match a Tier 4 TIE fighter. Then try a Z95. Or heck, even try an A-wing. You can never fit those with components of the same caliber as the NPC ships. (Well, unless you use the "pre mass-nerf" components that's still around on Spacebeta1).
I'll call BS on that one. Sure, your engines might keep up, but can your shields and other weapons keep up?
having an interceptor means i have weaker shields. but my weapons are top off the line. I may not be able to survive a direct hit... but they have to hit me first.
Yes, but then your ship is not in line with the NPC ships, is it?
don't need to be. but i can still match it... and my weapons destroy the NPCs just as easily as they do me. Mine are a little quicker since i can hit them all in one spot.
Uh, no. You don't do beta tests just for stress tests. If that were the case, why the did they need us to post feedback?
to see where the various bugs were that QA couldn't get at. AI can be tested with a QA team. POP problems can be done with QA.
I disagree. You can test the AI with just a QA team. If you change the AI, the balance in all NPC fights is altered. If you alter the balance in NPC fights, you need to test all missions again. IMHO, it's a bit late to start tweak the AI two days before the beta ends.
agreed but it is something that QA would deal with... not the beta testers.
no, i was referring to the statement that you quoted... the one where if i killed a mission taker and they /hatetell me, how i would respond... how would that prove its a bad idea?
I don't have to prove it. Getting hate tells is indeed a proof that these missions are just a bad idea, since that will hurt PVP. Not promote it.
i get hate tells for flirting with dancers. people will always be upset with no matter what you do.
fav wrote:
Okay get ready cause I'm not really happy about this post. I really have a problem with people who join an online multi-player game but don't want to play AGAINST other people. Look there are LOTs of space combat sims that don't support PvP and I encourage you to look into them if you really can't hack it in JTL. Bottom line: JTL is the great equalizer that this game needs. I'm tired of 12-year-olds mashing buttons on their TKMs and owning me in PvP. There's no skill in that. JTL will finally pit player against player and only the ones with skills will survive. Yes yes I know what you're saying already: yeah well a tricked-out B-wing will always own my starter TIE in PvP. I agree you'd have a pretty hard time winning that fight no matter how good a pilot you are, but in most cases a good pilot can outfight even a superior ship piloted by a novice.
Just FYI I joined this multiplayer game to play WITH People and not always against them. So, you are tired of 12-year olds mashing buttons on their TKMand own you in PvP.Well, then I hope you will not get tired at 12 year olds mashing buttons on their master ships and own you in PvP while you try to master your profession.
I've heard the argument that the game needs to be fair for all players and exculding a group of players who don't want toPvP is wrong. Well, I disagree. I think the required PvP is just realistic and it adds a LOT to the overall feel of space combat. Yes let's be honest, none of us like to die or be beaten but it's going to happen. Some people will never be good at JTL and I can understand their frustration, but at the same time this JTL model is the game I've been waiting for since 1995. FINALLY a game that completely immerses me in the star wars universe, both in space and on the ground. It's not perfect... no game is, but it's goes lightyears beyond any other Star Wars game in what it does.
And here I again disagree with you. How would you like it if all PvE guys are calling to throw you PvP´s out? Why should it be more fair for you then for the ones that don´t like to be forced into PvP?
[FLAMEON] So to all you players who love to complain, and who seek "balance and fairness" I'd like to say this: People who complained that getting to jedi was too hard and it needed to be "fair", or the ones who moaned about bounty hunters being too powerful have ruined a large part of this game. Well now we have the new jedi system and bounty hunters were nerfed to death (but are now being fixed).They claim to be looking for fairness but all they really want is to be is "uber" and couldn't care less about how it affects the experience forthe rest of us.Those button-mashers who grind out experience just to geta jedi sothey can stand in Coronet and show offtheir lightsaber are the problem with SWG.They don't want to play,they just want to win.
And what has that to do with JTL or this thread? And how do you care how it affects the experience for the rest of us?
So guess what, JTL is not "fair". It's not "balanced". It's not "X-wing" or "Jedi Starfighter" or "Wing Commander" or "Battlefront". It's not a PvE environment. PvP is what JTL was built for. Player vs. player in space combat. We're tired of firing on wave after wave of mindless AI TIEs. So if you really have a problem with that, then JTL is not for you. But if you paid any attention to the development notes and the TONS of user discussions online, you would already know this. And I just have to comment on this last piece.
No it was not PVP it was built for. It was built to bring the space component into the game. And thats why there are 8 (in letters EIGHT) PvE zones and 2 (in letters TWO) PvP zones.
> please add you comments about the forced PVP issue, also those of you that support forced PVP think about this first, what would you do if I took PVP completely away from you? would you like being forced to do nothing but PVE? That is the same way we feel about being forced to take part in PVP.
Okay, first of all, you're not being forced. Don't want PvP? Stay out of Kessel. You won't get master pilot, but you won't HAVE to PvP. Secondly, if you took PvP out of the ground game I think people would miss it, but the ground is really geared for PvE to beging with. JTL is allabout eventual PvP. That's really a silly comparison anyway since taking PvP out of the ground game removes a feature thatsome players might enjoy. Keeping PvP in JTL just gives players more options, so how can you even suggest the two scenarios are equal?
And forcing players into PvP in JTL removes a feature that some players might enjoy. All Multiplayerships aremaster only.
Let me finish by saying, I'm not happy about EVERY little thing in SWG, but I play it anyway because I believe in the concept of the game. Some of the people who comment on these boards feel that they deserve a game that adapts to their personal wants. Well, in a multi-player environment its never going to happen. There will always be conflict of opinions and the Devs do a pretty good job of taking all the sides into account while at the same time trying to keep the original spirit of the game intact. But its just foolish to suggest the DEVs remove an element of the game that other players HAVE BEGGED FOR just becuase you don't want to participate. [FLAMEOFF]
Who has begged for Mastermissions in PvP zones?
Cuality wrote:
Actually, its a basic tenet of psychology. In fact... you don't like Formula one racing because... you are AFRAID of being bored.
Heh, now you're just stretching on the definition of being afraid.
actually... there are bonuses given for destroying the deep space targets. i know most servers are into the whole guild war... pvp for the sake of pvp thing, but ahazi has always been a targeting server... we need things to destroy... and base raids are still common, even today.
What bonuses? If there are bonuses, they are either not working or they were turned off for the beta.
don't need to be. but i can still match it... and my weapons destroy the NPCs just as easily as they do me. Mine are a little quicker since i can hit them all in one spot.
Sure, you can destroy them. Still doesn't justify the fact that the NPC ships don't play by the same rules as player ships does. The simple fact is that a player flown ship can never match or outmatch an NPC ship of the same kind and tier.
I disagree. You can test the AI with just a QA team. If you change the AI, the balance in all NPC fights is altered. If you alter the balance in NPC fights, you need to test all missions again. IMHO, it's a bit late to start tweak the AI two days before the beta ends.
agreed but it is something that QA would deal with... not the beta testers.
... And how would QA deal with that without beta testers? They can't, especially not in two freakin' days.
Cuality wrote:
I don't have to prove it. Getting hate tells is indeed a proof that these missions are just a bad idea, since that will hurt PVP. Not promote it.
i get hate tells for flirting with dancers. people will always be upset with no matter what you do.
Well, then that is just proof that it was a bad idea to flirt with the dancers.
Felinae wrote:
In order to become a master in any of the pilot professions you must enter the Kessel system, all of the master missions take place there. The problem with this is you have no choice whether or not to PVP in the kessel or deep space system, if you enter those system you are PVP fodder.
Now consider that and think about this.... rebel master mission 1, kill 30 ties.... they are not very fast spawns and hard to get to anyways because of the gunboats all around that can really mess you up, if you hyperspace out to repair, reload you fail the mission, if you die you fail the mission and you have to go get the mission again and then head back to start over.... now add in on all of that you are now a PVP target whether you want to be or not.
I tried this mission a few times then quit beta because of the PVP, I had maybe a few minutes in the zone but every time I was attacked by a PC, my choices where to die (restart mission) hyper out (restart mission) try to kill the guy shooting me...(no I refuse to take part in PVP). In just the past week alone I have counted in about 10 different threads about this issue, and there have been post after post about the possible griefing once this in live, yet all those posts have been ignored, not one dev comment.
Firespray by the way is the AV21 of JTL you have to gather 8 fragments that you can make a schem from that you can make 8 ships from.
Oh and the multiplayer ships are just taxi's, from the drivers seat thats all you can do, if you want your YT to be able to do your solo smuggling, forget it... you cant shoot without leaving the drivers seat and going to a turret.
please add you comments about the forced PVP issue, also those of you that support forced PVP think about this first, what would you do if I took PVP completely away from you? would you like being forced to do nothing but PVE? That is the same way we feel about being forced to take part in PVP.
Message Edited by Felinae on 10-22-2004 09:59 AM
/agree 100%
As for the multiplayer ship pilot not being able to fire guns, I've beencampaigning about this, and will continue to do so until it's changed.
I think I'll just be one of many using the yacht until things are improved, doesn't really seem worth the grind for master yet does it?
BrotherDavius wrote:
pve dose play a part in the gcw in space all but one mission are in pve zones, the last one just happens to be in a pvp. The way some of you people are talking it is as if its pvp all the way from novice to master well its not.
Also its not like the new master pilots will stay in that pvp zone they will more than likly go to the deep space zone as youneed to be a master to be able to get in there.
And what do you want to tell us? That it is no problem that the most difficult mission of all is in Griefers Paradise?
Nobody talked about every mission. What we are talking about is only that last mission. I personally also do PvP sometimes.
But:
a) when I want to
b) when it doesn't make me loose hours and hours of my time
The "normal" master pilot might really go into deep space but there will still be enough dorks left that stay in Kessel only to have their fun hunting the ones that have to go there to do the mission.
Message Edited by Eldana on 10-27-2004 09:28 AM
Eldana wrote:
BrotherDavius wrote:
pve dose play a part in the gcw in space all but one mission are in pve zones, the last one just happens to be in a pvp. The way some of you people are talking it is as if its pvp all the way from novice to master well its not.
Also its not like the new master pilots will stay in that pvp zone they will more than likly go to the deep space zone as youneed to be a master to be able to get in there.
And what do you want to tell us? That it is no problem that the most difficult mission of all is in Griefers Paradise?
Nobody talked about every mission. What we are talking about is only that last mission. I personally also do PvP sometimes.
But:
a) when I want to
b) when it doesn't make me loose hours and hours of my time
The "normal" master pilot might really go into deep space but there will still be enough dorks left that stay in Kessel only to have their fun hunting the ones that have to go there to do the mission.
Message Edited by Eldana on 10-27-2004 09:28 AM
Most people in here in the last few posts where saying missions implying that they thought that there where a few missions like this.
Let me ask the people who do not like this:
Why is it ok for jedi to have to pvp be it from bounty hunters or other jedi(in the Force ranking system) the whole time that they play. But it is not ok for a pilot to have to do it for one mission?
It is not like you have to pvp to work up the pilot trees, its not like you have to pvp after you master pilot, you only have to do it for 1 mission, if you find it to hard with 4-5 people find more people. Get people who have already done it to help you, if it dose not work in the live servers then yes they should change it but for now they should leave it the way it os.
BrotherDavius wrote:
Eldana wrote:
BrotherDavius wrote:
pve dose play a part in the gcw in space all but one mission are in pve zones, the last one just happens to be in a pvp. The way some of you people are talking it is as if its pvp all the way from novice to master well its not.
Also its not like the new master pilots will stay in that pvp zone they will more than likly go to the deep space zone as youneed to be a master to be able to get in there.
And what do you want to tell us? That it is no problem that the most difficult mission of all is in Griefers Paradise?
Nobody talked about every mission. What we are talking about is only that last mission. I personally also do PvP sometimes.
But:
a) when I want to
b) when it doesn't make me loose hours and hours of my time
The "normal" master pilot might really go into deep space but there will still be enough dorks left that stay in Kessel only to have their fun hunting the ones that have to go there to do the mission.
Message Edited by Eldana on 10-27-2004 09:28 AM
Most people in here in the last few posts where saying missions implying that they thought that there where a few missions like this.
Let me ask the people who do not like this:
Why is it ok for jedi to have to pvp be it from bounty hunters or other jedi(in the Force ranking system) the whole time that they play. But it is not ok for a pilot to have to do it for one mission?
It is not like you have to pvp to work up the pilot trees, its not like you have to pvp after you master pilot, you only have to do it for 1 mission, if you find it to hard with 4-5 people find more people. Get people who have already done it to help you, if it dose not work in the live servers then yes they should change it but for now they should leave it the way it os.
Actually you have to do "missions" in Kessel as thatmaster mission is also split into several parts.
Please don't compare the pilot profession with Jedi.
And Jedi are only permaovert when they reach knight status.
Would you agree that there is a huge potential of griefing in having that mission in a PvP zone or not?
And about having a group with you... nice, but 1 hit on you and all is over.