Jedi Archive

Okay... I'll make a short list of some things I have thought about powers needing...

1.) They need a few speed modifiers... Currently the onlything able to make your FP speed faster is the Ranged Speed branch in FS and CAs.... Not enough speed to raise it over +50 to keep more balance and still have LS with a higher DPS....

2.) Breach is useless... Point made.... Had to use it 5 times in a duel to get all buffs off a target.. that's 1.5K force... That's alot of wasted time as well... Make it like 80% and able to take off avoid incap....

3.) Need to take warmups off of all attacks... IF we're suppsoed to be ranged then why my us rooted for a LS user to come and get us?

4.) Add a difference between area KDs and Intimidates like in the Force Lightning tree... I enjoy being able to single Lightning if I want or Area...

5.) Add more attacks... Or tweak some attacks... Like Force weaken... Maybe make it a armor break instead of having it slow movement speed down....

6.) Used intimidate 6 times in a large pvp battle tonight.. only intimidated 3 people overall in a large group of 30....

7.) Add alittle more damage to Lightning.. If not that then Force Strike....

8.) Do not make powers a Darkside only thing in the FRS... This would be bad for all the Lightside jedi that went powers because SOE decided ALL jedi could have it. But instead maybe add Darkside users getting soem special abilities and Lightside users getting some special abilities...

9.) Maybe make Force throw or Mind blast more useful... Stun and Dizzy really don't seem to help.. especially when alsting 3 seconds...

10.) Choke is currently useless against other jedi... Make it root or to bypass Force armor, aura, innate armor, but still allow Force shield, Absorb, Feedback to counter it.

Message Edited by Uneshoof on 07-10-2005 04:23 AM

Message Edited by Uneshoof on 07-10-2005 04:24 AM

1. Advanced Force Lightning Single at Master Powers.

2. Reduce the warm-up timer for Force Lightning.

3. Give Powers a Root ability (or add it to another skill, say Choke)

4. Increase effectiveness of Force Breach, because if you're fighting an Enhancer, you must get their shields down before you can do damage to them without killing yourself.

5. Give Powers and Armor Break ability (or add it to another skill, say Weaken)

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MyT_Chicken wrote:

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Baciacca wrote:

thus hopefully keeping Powers as the "Darkside" ability.

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You know, I hope they don't keep powers "Darkside". Even though RP /Storywise it is "considered" a darkside template, not everyone wants to wield a stupid glow stick...regardless what role they play in for the GCW. Powers should not be limited to only "Imperials / Darkside" jedi.

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The following will attempt to completely outline the issues with powers and will further attempt to describe potential solutions. I will do my best todelineate those sections subject to conjecture and opinion, but will similarly attempt to provide complete explanations for those opinions.

I. Powers in its current state

The developers have indicated that powers should be a "viablealternative" to lightsabers, but should not be capable of the same damage output. In its current state powers can best be described as vastly subpar. The single largest problem with powers is the number of areas in which powers is artificially weakened in comparison to lightsabers.Some of these areas are listed below(please note that it is a list of weaknesses and is NOT to be taken asa list of all areas in which powers shouldnecessarily improved):

Ranged Damage: Powers is touted as the ranged damage dealing profession,however, the advanced saber throw special of lightsabers inflicts on the order of 40% more damage than the strongest powers damaging special, lightning. In addition to this saber throw has the same 32m range as all powers,it is not accompanied by any warmup timer, and applies the knockdown state. Lightsaber is a more effective ranged damage dealing profession than powers.

Action costs: Powers is accompanied by inordinately high action costs.These costs result in the inability touse more than a handful of attacksbeforethe user finds their action pool drained.

To gain an accurate feeling for these costs Ihad a test subject attemptto maintain his buffs and heal against myattacks. Using lightsaberskills only I incapacitated the individual in relatively short order. Using a combination of powers and sabers I was able to deal only moderate damage before the action costs rendered me defenseless, the subject was never in danger of incapacitation. The result of usingpowers only specials was even worse, damage was minimal (well, laughable) and action pool was devestated.

Forcecosts:Powers continues to retail slightly higer force costs. This is not among the critical issues to take a stand on any longer, but is still an important consideration in terms of strength.

Damage: The damage of individual specials is far lower than that of lightsaber specials. This is well known and well documented. It is a known area of weakness in the comparison of powers and lightsaber abilities.

Number of damaging specials: The above indicated that the damage of each "damaging special" was lower, another major weakeness is the actual number of damaging specials.

Lightsabers retain the ability to combine both single target specials and AOE specials. An excellent damaging combination for lightsabers on a single target is to alternate between 2 high damage specials that operate on staggered timers (this means that the next special may be executed while the prior special is still in its cooldown phase). An example of this in a single target combination is alternating between head and power hit. An example of alternating AOE specials are dervish with polearm spin attack. The end result is an enormous boost in damage output when compared to simply spamming one special repeatedly.

Powers does not have this ability. There are 2 damaging specials in powers, one is an area attack and one is a single target attack. Both of them have a long warmup timer and cooldown phase. When engaged in pve and attempting to avoid aggro it is not possible to use the area lightning attack and therefore it is reduced to the incessant spamming of1 special with a very long recovery time (5 seconds for force lightning single with force speed 2, if i remember correctly 6 without). Even in situations that allowlightning single and lightning areato be alternated between It is agonizingly slow todo so, the length of time to execute the attacks combined with other factors make any powers user an extreme underdog. There are not enough damaging specials on seperate timers in the powers skill set.

Warmup Timers and Speed: Every significant damaging attack in powers is accompanied by a warmup timer. This requires the user to be standing still to deliver damage, sacrificing what remained of any ranged advantage. The warmup timer also has the effect of slowing down the rate of attacks enormously.

Assuming thata powers user is switching between area lightning lightning single they are capable of delivering an attack roughly every 3 seconds. In that time frame an MLS with a modified speed of only 1.5 is capable of delivering 2 attacks for every 1 powers attack. This means that the dps of the lightsaber user is not only higher by the individual attack, but it is on the order of DOUBLE that of the powers user because they are delivering damage at (roughly) twice the rate!

In conclusion, in my experience powers in its current state is delivering damage at approximately half the rate, with higher force costs, far higher action costs, with the damage of individual attacks being less, a fewer number of total damaging attacks, and far slower delivery. This is precisely where powers falls behind lightsabers. Instead of choosing an area to make lightsabers excel above powers, the developers made powers significantly weaker in 5 or more areas, all of which compound to make the entire skill set utterly laughable in comparison to sabers.

II. The role of powers in swg

It would be difficult to know what to fix, without knowing what powers role should actually be. This is the single biggest problem, everybody has their own idea of what powers should be.The following is my assessment of powers.

Powers is considered a dark side skill. From what we know of the greedy, self-centered dark side wielders, we know that they gain incredibleoffensive abilitiesas their strength grows. They tend to exhibit thisstrength most blatantly throughForce Powers. A powers jedi is violently aggressive using their powers to surprise, weaken, and annhilate their opponents in a spate of unparalled aggression(i.e. more of a surprise attacking, debuffer, followed by solid damage).

The developers also indicated that they saw powers as a moderate damage dealing skill. For all of these reasons I concur, powers should be capable of at least moderate damaging capabilities.Powers is also understood to contain abilities that weaken their opponents. It is exhibited in play via breach(and was supposed to with weaken). I again concur that powers should be a debuffer.

Powers is not a crowd control profession. Enhancer is the crowd controller. It is the enhancer that contains the roots, snares, and critical stasis skills. Powers contains a single area kd and an area intimidate that applies a minimal damage reduction. Akd does not control the flow of your opponents in the way that a stasis, root, or snare does, it simply places opponents in a more vulnerable position for a single combat turn, strangely enough the effect of placing a player in a KD position has more of the effect of a debuff than any crowd control. It puts the opponent in a slightly weakend position.

III. Recreating Powers as a Moderate Damage Dealer/Debuffer

The elegant result is that as a Moderate Damage Dealer and Debuffer, the current skill tree only needs some reassessment and adjustments, not a total redesign.

First lets look at the Moderate damage dealing issue. In the first section I elaborated on each of several major areas of weakness. If powers is going to become the viable moderate damage dealer that the devs envisioned something must be done to address these issues.

Action costs must be brought into alignment with lightsaber specials and the warmup timersabsolutely must be eliminated. Force costs are acceptable as they stand.

Now, we must select the area that we are willing to make powers weaker than lightsabers. Is it in the damage inflicted in each special or is it in the number of true damage dealing skills? To make a powers user weaker in both of these areas results in a compounding problem that results in a total lack of viability. My personal suggestion would be to leave the damage of the individual specials lower, but raise the damage inflictedwith other skills such as force throw, mind blast, etc. so that they are comparable to lightning's damage and place them on staggered timers so that they may be used in combination. In this way a powers user will inflict less damage on each special, but should be able to deliver them at roughly the same rate, this should be an excellent solution that satifies the argument that lightsabers should do more damage due to looted components.

Excellent, It looks like we have a viable moderate damage dealing profession now. How about the debuffing skills?

This is the logic that brings me to believe that powers should be able to step up their damage and, though not reaching that of a lightsaber, can actually approach it under very refined circumstances. Here is the idea. A lightsaber user will alway have the initiative, this means that they can enter any battle vs a master powers and easily dominate the early fight. The powers user cannot do damage that is even close to viable and comparable in the early stagesofbattle. Instead, assuming the powers user can control themselves, apply the proper debuffs, they can then set the opponent up for damage with powers alone that is approaching that of a saberist and if they choose to sacrifice their defenses for sabers the damage they inflict with a saber will far surpass that of an MLS not using any debuffs.

How can this be accomplished:

Weaken must become a defense lowering skill, it makes sense in the context of the word "weaken" and there are similar skills throughout the game. Weaken should become an important skill that lowers force defenses as well as ranged and melee defense. In this method a powers user that can keep is opponent weakened can more effectively deal damage and a more heavily offensive jedi with saber skills can also improve his damage though the use of dark skills.

Breach in its current state is not effective. We must remember that battles are very fast paced now. The dark jedi may attack the saberist, but they are on the defensive simply because they MUST debuff their opponent to do any damage (and if it is a combination powers/saber jedi if they choose to give up the initiative and go on the defensive to debuff they should gain an advantage in damage with both powers and saber if they are capable of actually surviving long enough to debuff). The cooldown timer on breach is devestating for the jedi attempting to tip the balance and gain control of the fight. The failure rate of it is also very severe, since it only takes a single buff to mitigate a majority of damage. The ability to immediately reapply buffs is similarly deadly for the powers user.

The cooldown timer on breachmust be drastically reduced. The percentage chance to remove buffs should be shifted to a 50% chance to remove all buffs at once and/or be given a higher chance to remove each buff, if these changes are not made then there absolutely must be a timer that prevents the immediate reapplication of buffs.

Not too bad right? A few changes to the debuffing ability and a few changes to the damage dealing portion and it looks like we've taken a big step towards a viable skill set. It is not capable of outdamaging lightsabers, but is capable of approaching their damage a bit morewith a lot of debuffing. Even better, for the purists out there that believe jedi should have sabers, the debuffing abilities compliment lightsaber damage and give the all out offensive jedi, whosacrifices their defenses, the ability to do some more damage, giving their templates viability as well. For those out there that wish to be pure weilders, you can still do effective damage and with patience and skill you can acquit yourselves well in battle. Everyone happy?

IV Conclusion/Recommendations

• Reduce action costs on powers specials


• Remove the warmup timers


• Make more specialsinto damage dealers.

-Force throw is an example of a skill that should be deliveringcomparable damage to area lighting, as an area attack.

-Mind blast(or another similarskill)should be delivering comparable damage to lighting single, as a single target attack.

-These skills should also be ona staggered timer to allowthe swapping between themin the same manner that players swap between head and power hit.

• Master powers should be hitting at the same (average) speed as a MLS user. (remembering that each of the powers users specials is lower damage and therefore results in a much lower dps).


• Speed mods in attachments for powers users so that they may improve speed the same as a LS user.


• Weaken must become a defense reducing skill. With so many defenses to reduce damage it must reduce force, ranged and melee defense. (Melee defense because the ls/powers user should actually get some benefit to their ls damage for the sacrifice of defenses, the same way that a defense/healer/enhancer jedi can stack abilities to improve defense.)


• Breach must have the cooldown timer reduced.


• Breach should either have a 50%(or so)chanceof removing all buffs per shot and/or an increased chance of removing each buff. Adda very brief period where buffs cannot be reapplied if neither of the above are effectively implemented. (remember the powers user is thrown on the defensive in the early fight, this is an incredibly dangerous and weak position to be in, the time needed tostand therespamming and waiting for a series of successful breachesbeforeattempting to retake control of the fightshould be reduced).


• The cooldown timer on choke must be reduced.


• Animations for powers must be sped up greatly, they act as nothing more than a self root and feel horribly clumsy.

I'm sure i'll think of a few other changes later. I will be turning in now, as it is rather late here. I will either edit or add any oversights/typos etc. that I may have made. Oh and for god's sake...can we get that silly little pink trail for choke removed...I look more like a carebear shooting silly string than a dark jedi.

Message Edited by LairdJimmy on 07-10-2005 02:11 AM

ok,these are my 2 cents

1-we have too many zip bars,too low damageand have to stand still using our most useful skills. we are continually self rooted. This cannot be for a ranged prof, overall when the so-called alternative ( MLS ) has a ranged attack (saber throws ) with a better dps, no zip bar and the possibility to move using it. Currently, MLS is a better kiter then MP.i don't have the solution for this, but surelya problem is there too

2-intimidate is completely useless

3-we have two attacks that induce a stun states ( imp force throw and mind blast ): that should be changed ( mind blast could induce a blind state, for example

4-we definitely need an armor break attack

5-we have too many counters. The only way a MP can win a duel with another jedi is trying to survive while his opponent kills himself using his force or action bars. Don't you think there is something wrong, for a profession whose core should beattacking the enemy?You should also compare our ranged attacks with MLS ones, think about the fact that our attacks get other counters (ex:force feedback) saber attacks don't get, then find a solution.Otherwise,speaking of a viable option is laughable

6-As already said, we should be able to choose between attacking a single or multiple targets. Forcing us to area attacking reduces oureffectiveness in pve

7-breach needs some help. No use for a skills whose cost is so high and chances to work so low

I am sure there is still something i missed,but it is nearly lunch time and i have something more important then SWG to think about

Good work guys

My questions:

• Is it intentional that powers are a "budget" damage dealing profession compared to sabers, i e that the lack of expensive components (pearls/crystals) make up for the fact that powers do less damage? Or is this something that you intend to address by adding a way to boost power damage just like saber damage?


• In the new FRS that's been submitted to Lucasart, do you distinguish between light and dark jedi when it comes to force wielding skills? I e can dark jedi deliver higher damage force lightnings?

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Harkonenov wrote:

my 2cents :

1) add a "talisman", "amulet" ...no matter how to name it, just like an item, were a persone, using f-powers can put crystalls and pearls and add a craft line for it - just like we have in LS. May be with less effect on output powers damag, but making Powers less f-costly, more spd., more dmg - basing on quality of pearls/crystals.

2) defenetly Powers need smth like armor break.

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Namen_Xenomi wrote:

*ahem*, last post before I'm done.

POWERS SHOULD NOT BE EQUAL TO LS, THEY ARE COMPLETLEY DIFFERENT SKILLS AND PLAYSTYLES THAT SHOULD BE TRATED DIFFERENTLY, USED DIFFERENTLY, AND GAUGED DIFFERENTLY.

that is all

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