Jedi Archive

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Bawarr wrote:

Looking solely at weapons a 600-700 saber vs a good rifle/carb is more or less equal. Its everything else thats not 'right', currently the main problem is MLS/Mdef FOTM got countered with a BH/CM and now you have to have some powers to reliably kill one. No one temp can be the best, however that means BH will always have an upper hand since they can adapt to the main jedi temp in under 5 days whereas a jedi takes longer to 'counter' a BH temp.

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I actually agree with all of this. However, the strength of Jedi is not only that sabers can be built strong and the weapons specials granted are very powerful. The strength of Jedi is that it is a well-rounded class. Jedi excel in offense, defense and healing. Whereas a BH can only excel in 2 areas due to skill point restrictions. TheMBH/MCM FotM template excels in healing, is moderate in offense, and pitiful in defense. The reason why you need force powers to kill one more easily is that force powers would chip away at its one strength.

If I were able to compile a BH template that is well rounded and equal to Jedi power, it would be: MBH+MCM+TKM+MRifles. This would require 396 skill points ... which is, surprise surprise, 1.584 times more skillpoints than a normal player is allowed.

Do you all think it is a coincidence that the one template that is well rounded and equal to Jedi in power requires 1.5 times more skillpoints? There is a method to the madness. Jedi is balanced. The problem is that Jedi want to be more than 1.5 times more powerful but you can't have that when anyone who wants a Jedi can have one.

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OhBuggah wrote:

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Bawarr wrote:

Looking solely at weapons a 600-700 saber vs a good rifle/carb is more or less equal. Its everything else thats not 'right', currently the main problem is MLS/Mdef FOTM got countered with a BH/CM and now you have to have some powers to reliably kill one. No one temp can be the best, however that means BH will always have an upper hand since they can adapt to the main jedi temp in under 5 days whereas a jedi takes longer to 'counter' a BH temp.

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I actually agree with all of this. However, the strength of Jedi is not only that sabers can be built strong and the weapons specials granted are very powerful. The strength of Jedi is that it is a well-rounded class. Jedi excel in offense, defense and healing. Whereas a BH can only excel in 2 areas due to skill point restrictions. TheMBH/MCM FotM template excels in healing, is moderate in offense, and pitiful in defense. The reason why you need force powers to kill one more easily is that force powers would chip away at its one strength.

If I were able to compile a BH template that is well rounded and equal to Jedi power, it would be: MBH+MCM+TKM+MRifles. This would require 396 skill points ... which is, surprise surprise, 1.584 times more skillpoints than a normal player is allowed.

Do you all think it is a coincidence that the one template that is well rounded and equal to Jedi in power requires 1.5 times more skillpoints? There is a method to the madness. Jedi is balanced. The problem is that Jedi want to be more than 1.5 times more powerful but you can't have that when anyone who wants a Jedi can have one.

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That's a nice effort, however that is only YOUR opinion of a template equal to Jedi power. There are many others that are for all intents an purposes equal and these do not equate to 1.5 times the skillpoints necessary for a full template Jedi. Youdevising your own coincidental skillpoint calculation and deciding that it is "the one template that is well rounded" does not constitute a fact.

Edited for unusual use of a semicolon...

Message Edited by nufctoonfan on 09-03-2005 06:48 AM

A'ru, I know your new to the jedi boards and profession so i'll tell you how it works. You can post all the good ideas and good posts you can but certain jedi will not be happy till they have the I win button.

Bad PvP'ers are bad PvP'ers not matter what profession they are. Some of the idiots that have flamed you in your well thought out, constructive thread are the same mindless idoits that went Jedi because they cannot PvP and they believe that premium pearls and a high DPS will make up for there short comings.

I wouldn't waste your time here mate, your better than that and your better than 90% of the people in here. You will never have to worry about your PvP skills, because having dueled you as a none jedi,I know what you'll be able to do with a jedi.

ok gonna use the folowing weapons - stats pulled from the corby trade forums

the accy mods from master rifle/carbines/pistols etc actually make very little difference vs the 500 defence from aura on the jedi.

i chose MBH/CM as that is the most common opponent for a jedi to face - i dont have the time to run simulations for absolutlely every scenario

Master rifles/carbine/pistols has about +170 more acc than just a MBH - to correct the stats for this - multiply the damage done by about 1.1

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MasterSheep wrote:

the accy mods from master rifle/carbines/pistols etc actually make very little difference vs the 500 defence from aura on the jedi.

i chose MBH/CM as that is the most common opponent for a jedi to face - i dont have the time to run simulations for absolutlely every scenario

Master rifles/carbine/pistols has about +170 more acc than just a MBH - to correct the stats for this - multiply the damage done by about 1.1

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incorrect....for the purposes of rifle testing, if you stacked just rifleman on top of bh you would gain an additional 120 accuracy so, thats +120(rifleman) +50(sea's) +200(food)= 370 more accuracy than you used for your testing....that mitigates 74% of the 500 def pts granted through aura.....considering that if you were testing properly you would be starting with a weapon that has a higher base damage than the best possible by a saber...this is huge andit's not a 1.1 multiplier...yes your junky weapons are MAX damage capped...but you put nothing in the min which goes to the heart of your point saying min damage is king.....if you want to say because of our minimum damage, sabers are good weapons, look at therifles (and other weapons)that are capable of besting a saber in EVERY CATEGORY EXCEPT SPEED to which we only have an approx .4 (which does not equal a .4 modded speed advantage due to diminishing returns)advantage at best. AGAIN, THE REASON NO ONE UNDERSTANDS WHAT YOUR SAYING ABOUT SABER DAMAGE IS BECAUSE IT IS NOT TRUE.limp away.

and just for the record....a 500 pt range between min and max damis common for ranged weapons....sabers only have a 100 pt range, which means point for point, accuracy is 5 times more effective for a ranged fighter than for a Jedi....some might say that's probably why you didn't include food or masteriesin your testing.

Message Edited by Quiet420 on 09-03-2005 06:22 AM

correct on the food numbers - however i was ignoring food as it can be eaten by anyone so balances it out using it or not - same with sae's

i chose the weapons i did as typical examples of what is available those weapons were on sale from a good WS on the corbantis trade forums for many mill of credits- it is very tricky to up the min damage of a crafted weapon anyway - there are no enhancers except for loot stocks - but using them gives +20 sac over a crafted stock.

and as far as the damage modifier goes +50 more acc moves you up one level on the damage scale from min to max - i ran some rough calcyulations on what this means it is roughtly 1.1 for carbs 1.15 for rifles and 1.07 for pistols

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MasterSheep wrote:

correct on the food numbers - however i was ignoring food as it can be eaten by anyone so balances it out using it or not - same with sae's

i chose the weapons i did as typical examples of what is available those weapons were on sale from a good WS on the corbantis trade forums for many mill of credits- it is very tricky to up the min damage of a crafted weapon anyway - there are no enhancers except for loot stocks - but using them gives +20 sac over a crafted stock.

and as far as the damage modifier goes +50 more acc moves you up one level on the damage scale from min to max - i ran some rough calcyulations on what this means it is roughtly 1.1 for carbs 1.15 for rifles and 1.07 for pistols

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again......although anyone can use seas and eat food...it is 5 times more effective for a ranged fighter than it is for a Jedi due to min-max damage range

500 vs 100 range

regarding min damage: when slicing or crafting with enhancers, if you keep going after you have hit the max damage cap the minimum damage will still increase.

thats how the rifle in the post above was created, when pup'd...yes, you see the min damage reach 700+...not an exploit.

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insaniac77 wrote:

First off this is one of the best posts ive seen in here after browsing it for hours at work. Dont mean to get off topic but i just came back from well over a year off and just got jedi. Im looking for some good info about the profession and details about all the powers and saber crafting, good ways to find crystals and pearls for sabers etc. Most of the stuff has changed completely since I left and im having little luck finding good posts or guides on this forum with all the 'rate my temp' or 'fix pearl drop' posts. if anyone can point me to some good info about the new jedi profession and just basic info about as much as possible it would be great. (not worried about the 'best' temp info, ill choose powers I want because i like them wether they are the best or not)

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gah...well, you picked a doozy of a time to come back, but nonetheless, welcome back....as far as saber crafting goes, much has changed, you can now craft your 4th gen right from the get go, just gotta be CR 54 to use it...however you do still need the lightsaber exper mods from the techniques branch, and the master box (and also, now from SEA's)if you can swing it, and basicly, you want to get yourself a set of server best lightsaber crafting resources(your galaxies trade forums are a great place to check) get the buff from an entertainer, get the crafting foods, and go use a crafting station in a research center....I would make a saber that is maxed on speed with the rest in sac,, and one that is maxed on sac with the rest in speed, may wanna work on some damage sabers too, but the speed and sac sabers will be used far more commonly, particularly the sac one......from there your gonna need pearls...hate to say it, but the best place to get crystals now is from BH npc missions, so if you are really starting from scratch as far as collecting goes you may want to make your alt into a BH like everyone else, or just buy them...but they are expensive, and since there are no more premies or flawless' they will more likely than not, not be very good..

in regards to the non saber concerns....vis has changed....group members no longer give you vis....and in addition, bh's can no longer take your mission based on payout or your name, all they see on the term is rebel jedi, imp jedi etc......you no longer lose xp through any means except death to a bh

grinding is easier....when grouped, you only have to hit a mob one time to get full xp, however you cannot use any regular profession skills during the combat (such as attacks, or medic, doc, or cm healing) or you will siphon xp away from your goal of jedi xp....also...xp per kill is based on your highest jedi box, as opposed to before when it was based on your highest lightsaber box....youll find plenty of solo groups at the mo on dantooine, but until you gain some strength its probably best to see if you can slide in with some guildies, or guild allies as they will be more receptive to assisting you while your basicly dead weight and will tend to watch your back better.

if there is anything else specificly you would like details on, shoot, oh yeah, and almost forgot, the search engine did receive some improvements, so once in a while you can actually get a forum search to go through, although it can be frustrating at times, and can be difficult to find specific information.

Message Edited by Quiet420 on 09-03-2005 07:04 AM

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MasterSheep wrote:
ill do it now - kinda got depressed by all the posts by people that didnt understand (or read) what i was trying to do. THere has been alot of constructive feedback here but also alot of "BUT I STILL GET BEAT SO I DONT SEE HOW A WEAPON CAN BE BALLANCED!!!" really made me want to stop posting - ill run the numbers now.

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Master Sheep, your post is pimp. Ignore the idiots. you have single handedly restored my faith in Jedi!

I think these other fools just want to harass you because your actually being the real deal and positive. No matter what hyou say, the winers are gonna whine.

remember that people who are negative are infinately more outspoken then people who are positive. Now I am starting to understand the method to the madness of SoE.

Rock on dude.

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LIZARDMAN5000 wrote:

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MasterSheep wrote:
ill do it now - kinda got depressed by all the posts by people that didnt understand (or read) what i was trying to do. THere has been alot of constructive feedback here but also alot of "BUT I STILL GET BEAT SO I DONT SEE HOW A WEAPON CAN BE BALLANCED!!!" really made me want to stop posting - ill run the numbers now.

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Master Sheep, your post is pimp. Ignore the idiots. you have single handedly restored my faith in Jedi!

I think these other fools just want to harass you because your actually being the real deal and positive. No matter what hyou say, the winers are gonna whine.

remember that people who are negative are infinately more outspoken then people who are positive. Now I am starting to understand the method to the madness of SoE.

Rock on dude.

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the intent of his post is noble, the facts it were based on, however, are non-existant. Lizard, given that you are still grinding, and trying to learn, you would do better to find factual information than looking for pretty shinies.

Message Edited by Quiet420 on 09-03-2005 07:09 AM

Message Edited by insaniac77 on 09-03-2005 04:16 AM