Jedi Archive

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-HadesBabe- wrote:

So you're saying that all the new Jedi should accept having a gimped sabre in PvE and PvP because a relative few have a really good sabre that allows them parity with the other elites in terms of weaponry?

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MasterSheep wrote:

firstly my background - im a weaponsmith who has recently unlocked jedi. as such i have a detailed understanding of how the weapons in this game work.

Im amazed at the number of comments i see on these boards along the line of..

""SABERS ARE RUBBISH _ A REGULASR RUN OF THE MILL JEDI CAN GET ABOUT 400-500 MAX DAMAGE ON THERE SABER WHERE AS ANY OLD WEAPONSMITH CAN MAKE ME A1160 MAX DAM LASER RIFLE!!! - OMG SABERS ARE SUCH RUBBISH WEAPONS!!!!!!!"

the caps are included to emphasise how these posts are often written

let me explain something that most players miss about sabers and why even an average 400-500 damage saber is still a terrifically good and ballanced weapon in this game.

lets compare 2 weapons

saber

400-500 damage

elemental heat - 125 (no banes crystal)

Gorax featherweight fwg5 kinetic weapon

384-966 (damage capped)

no elemental

i am aware that a pistol can be puped - however most will use a sac capped weapon - the stats on that pistol are one of the best pistol stats you can get and we are comparing it to a run of the mill saber

ok now the thing to remember is this - in low end pvp (farming the aacunan caves - killing cl4 womp rats etc) the weapons MAX damage comes into play. The difference between the weapons max and min is difided by 30 and depending on the CL difference between you and your target the weapon does an appropriate damage. eg 10 CL less than you it does max dam - 20 more than you it does min damage.

NOTE elemental damage is NOT effected by this - another + to the saber

WIth adv critical shot the PISTOL will hit a CL 70 for 1055 and a CL 100 for 420 - a huge range.

With improved saberpowerattack the saber will hit a CL70 for 653 and a CL 100 for534 - a tight range

NOTE the average saber does more damage vs high level targets than even the most enhnaced a pistol can get!!

ok PvP

first thing to note all weapon damages except elemental gets cut by .7 for pvp calculations - another + for a saber with its high elemental (also another + for commando weapons in PvP - but thats another story)

for PvP the weapons base damage is based on your acc vs the targets defences

if acc is 750 over defence you hit for the max

if acc is 750 less than defence you hit for the min

first test subject - master DEF jedi running im Aura - not AB

Pistol will hit for 317

Saber will hit for 325

(again using power attack and crit shot)

almost identical - that is in high end PvPa mediocre saber is pretty much equivelent to the very best pistols on the market...

vs a low defence opponent however..

eg a carbineer with 6000 resist battle armour and 4500 elemental..

pistol hits for 480

saber hits for 488

so even vs a weaker target the saber still holds its own

CONCLUSIONS

Max dam is a poor guide to high end PvP damage

Min damage is a much better guide

Elemental damage is vital for a good pvp weapon - sabers have alot of it

Sabers are remarkably well balanced - an average saber is just as good in high end PvP as the best a pistol can possible - simular stuff applies when you look at rifles and carbs - they hit slightly harder however fire slower

SABERS are NOT underpowered as weapons. they are desinged for high end PvE/PvP rather than low end grey con mob killing though - vs a CL90+ opponent even an average saber is by far the best choice.

A'ru

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MasterSheep wrote:

this post has run its course and is going round in circles now - so this will be the last time i post in it

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NOTE – none of these weapons are sliceable for damage – ALL are capped for max damage – speed is too tricky to calculate and is very broken as all specials except for the basic ones work of base speeds atm. Alternating specials makes the calculations much more tricky for speed too.

Also ignored here are

Foods (both jedi and reg profs can use them)

Clothing mods (both jedi and reg profs can use them)

Force and action costs – again to tricky to analyse here

The weapons used are all damage capped and not puped since alot of pup effects are hard to model and alot of McM/BH will use a SAC pup even on a weapon like these to ensure they can keep action high for CM debuffs

the raw numbers

BH/CM 0004 pistols using rifle t21 – 517-1183 @ 2.62

Firing adv critical (1.9 modifier)

Vs MD on aura - 379

Vs CL 80 BOL - 807

Vs CL 94 NK – 526

Vs MBH/MCM/004 on Imp Duelist (8000 energy resist armour) – 407

BH/CM 0004 pistols using elite carbine 425-1064 @ 2.3

Firing adv critical (1.9 modifier)

Vs MD on aura - 303

Vs CL 80 BOL - 685

Vs CL 94 NK – 409

Vs MBH/MCM/004 on Imp Duelist (8000 energy resist armour) – 343

BH/CM 0004 pistols using FWG5 pistol 343- 966 @ 1.84

Firing adv critical (1.9 modifier)

Vs MD on aura – 273

Vs CL 80 BOL - 611

Vs CL 94 NK – 368

Vs MBH/MCM/004 on Imp Duelist (8000 kinetic resist armour) – 313

Master Sabers using 400-500 +125 elementalsaber (4x 65 dam tunes)

Swinging IMP head hit (1.9 modifier)

No armour break / imp armour brake / Imp AB on 75% AB resist slice

Vs MD on aura – 322 / 554

Vs CL 80 BOL – 478 / 816

Vs CL 94 NK – 436 / 744

Vs MBH/MCM/004 on Imp Duelist (8000/5000 resist armour) – 325 / 569 / 386

Master Sabers using 625 – 725 + 218 elemental saber (perfect tunes)

Swinging IMP head hit (1.9 modifier)

No armour break / imp armour brake

No armour break / imp armour brake / Imp AB on 75% AB resist slice

Vs MD on aura – 507 / 890

Vs CL 80 BOL – 724 / 1236

Vs CL 94 NK – 682 / 1165

Vs MBH/MCM/004 on Imp Duelist (8000/5000 resist armour) – 509 / 886 / 604

Discuss

Message Edited by MasterSheep on 09-02-2005 09:27 PM

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MasterSheep wrote:

Discuss

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the saber costs a minimum about 100 times as much as any of those weapons to put together.....and it takes about 6 months of dedicated effort just to get the MLS starting from scratch

in addition....your exclusion of SEA's and FOOD slants it....ranged fighters gain quite a bit more due to accuracy additions than Jedi do, due to the respective damage ranges of the weapons involved.

finally....those are not combat ready weapons, at least for someone who knows how to win....first of all, for your rifle testing....the character DOESN'T EVEN HAVE RIFLE SKILLS...and same thing with the carbine....even the pistoleer only has ONE BRANCH of pistoleer

try a MBH/MRIF w/ acc food, gen ranged acc +25, rifle acc +25 with a trando rifle with stats similiar to this one:

min-max of 530-1180 2.66 speed 82 sac.....then try it damage pup'd...it will be around 700-1350

compare that with the Jedi, same saber, using foods and gen melee acc +25, and appropriateLS acc +25

then, and only then will you have a reliable comparison....and I guarentee the Rifleman wins

do the same with a dedicated carbineer/BH with appropriate weapon and a dedicated pistoleer with appropriate weapon

I'll say it again, the reason most people don't understand what your saying about saber damage is because it's not true.

Message Edited by Quiet420 on 09-02-2005 09:56 PM

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acmtalk wrote:
great post... Dont mind the Jedi hate...

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Yes, a great post but with severely flawed arguments.

<--MBH/MR/4000CM btw

Sorry mate,

But one of the previous posters hit it right on the head. Weapon stats are only part of it. The character skills of the individual wielder also come into play.

My MBH alt with a rifle very similar to the one mentioned out damages my MLS full temp Jedi all day long. With +25 to general ranged speed from AAs and a bunch of extra rifle speed, I put out a adv crit shot and torso shot almost once a second without cheating. The difference in sheer volume of damage is not even close. This is especially apparent in PvE. Throw in food and spice to mitigate high action useage, and the combat power of the BH wins every time.

In a side by side comparison of a full temp jedi (with a 640 max + elemental) vs a MSwords/Mdoc in good armor (the close non-jedi equivalent), the swordsman (with an almost 1100 max hammer)won 3 out of 4 times in a straight up fight. Food, spice and stims were used by both.

Sure, Jedi can have a few cool things that others don't, like cloak and forcerun and a few other things, but on comparison of combat power and damage output, Jedi are no where near the top of combat damage tree, and that is with a relatively good saber.

mmm..........me thinks MasterSheep and Tiggs may be the same person, as he/she is trying very hard to convince us that the lightsaber is the perfect damage machine

NO CAPTAIN, I SEE NO SHIPS JUST HARDSHIPS **R.I.P SWG 26/04/2005**