Jedi Archive
Thread: -40 Combat Speed Debuff. Does It Need a Nerf? Hard Numbers Inside.
laz_souto wrote:
Everyone is Looking at this the wrong way
Lets Pretend That Only The Debuff is Applied- Over a 5, 10 and 20 Min Period
(1) 4 Moves Lost Per Turn Over 5 Min= 20 Moves Lost, Therefore that is 10,000 to 20,000 Damage Lost
(2) 4 Moves Lost Per Turn Over 10 Min= 40 Moves Lost, Therefore That is 20,000 to 40,000 Damage Lost
(3) 4 Moves Per Turn Over 20 Min= 80 Moves Lost, Therefore That is 40,000 to 80,000 Damage Lost
All of this is considering a strong pvp player capable of 500 to 1000 Damage a Turn
Should You Add the Buff (v. Normal) 7500-15000, 15000-30000, and 30000-60000
Conclusion: Damage In Equal to 10,000 Damage or 20,000 Damage, Especially Closer to 40k-80k is GAME BREAKING, That is 40k the Cm did not have to Heal, Waste Mind And Turns On
"Stare At The Sun, It Will Burn Your Eyes And You Will Know Nothing, Study The Negitive And It Will Give You The Sun"
Message Edited by laz_souto on 08-17-2005 09:33 PM
Armor Break your opponents. Armor Break reduces your target's armor rating by 65%, meaning that if armor break someone wearing 7000 energy armor, their new energy armor protection rating will be 2450.
According to this guide (http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=armorsmith&message.id=91857), the change in the actual protection, i.e. the damage you actually DO to them, will vary by 52.5% - 25% = 27.5% more damage.
You Jedi here claim there is not true counter to the -40 combat speed debuff, but you can keep a target always Armor Broken and be doing 27.5% - 26.4% = 1.1% MORE damage to a target if you use Armor Break to counter the effects of the -40 combat speed debuff.
According to my numbers, the increase provided by the +10 Force Speed 1 buff is about 11%. We know that a +40 debuff causes a change of about 26.4%. The +20 Force Speed 2 buff probably causes a speed increase of about 18% if we imagine that it exists on a logarithmic scale, i.e. +10 => 11%, +20 => 18%, +30 => 23%, +40 => 26.4%. This looks about correct.
I think that it is becoming amazing clear that a Jedi with Force Speed 2 and Armor Break is probably capable of delivering an actual damage increase of about1.1% + 18% = 19.1%their normal value if they are kept under a -40 combat speed debuff throughout the entirety of a fight.
According to laz-souto's somewhat exagerated math, that would mean that over a 20 minute fight, you would be doing about ( doing the math (40k to 80k)/.25 = 160k to 320k, (160k to 320k) X .191 = 32k to 64k) 30.5k to 61.1k MORE damage over a 20 minute fight to a target capable of delivering a -40 combat speed debuff over a constant period of time.
Maybe I should put this in large, blue, red, and yellow letters to get my point across. Again, feel free to stop and pick apart my argument.
Message Edited by Ternque01 on 08-18-2005 12:33 AM
For those ready to counter my argument by arguing that Armor Break protection sliced armor reduces the effect of your armor break, please inform yourself that it is NOT a 75% reduction in the effects of armor break.
The slice is a 75% CHANCE of having an Armor Break effect be MITIGATED.
While I cannot provide hard numbers about the actual effects of the armor break mitigation, I can say even if the effects are mitigated, your damage done to the target is STILL increased. Adding Force Speed 2 or Doctor Buffs will probably be enough to cancel out the -40 combat speed debuff =/
Message Edited by Ternque01 on 08-18-2005 12:52 AM
Ikyo wrote:
If you want to see something that will make you shocked, have that same jedi wear +25 speed mod clothing. You will not see any difference in speed.
That is tragic, but it isn't really the issue I'm addressing here. I'm trying to dispell the rumors, myths, and misinformation being spread about -40 combat speed debuffs and its viable counters.
I am TRYING to save the usefulness of a few professions that have little else to offer a group in combat besides this debuff..... kinda sad that some ill-informed people are lobbying to snatch it away.
Ikyo wrote:
You are trying to show that it is perfectly fine and balanced. That is great that you are trying to show that, but this is the jedi forums. You are not goingto get people saying, "Yes, We love CM's!!!" Most of us hate them because of the FoTM template Master BH/Master CM combo. There are two ways to look at things:
1. Yes, this is currently balanced with the lack of soeed ability changing clothing
2. No, this is unbalanced right now because there is no way to change your attack speed
I am personally goignt o go with #2 on this because I have seen the stats on the post-cu sabers. They are incredibly high compared to the precu stuff. I think they need to go in and fix the speed mods or really do something about the 40% speed decrease. You start combining the 40% speed decrease with snare, kd and root....the BH could kite you really easily.
First off, it is NOT a 40% speed decrease. It is a 26.4% speed decrease. Please read the original post. I even do some error analysis later on in the thread.
Secondly, I'm sorry that the Jedi ideology around here prevents your from considering more than two options of opinion about the combat speed debuff, but hard testing and sound arguments RIP ANY ideology to pieces.
hmph wrote:
If it was truly balanced, and CM didn't have a distinct advantage over jedi, and over everything else, then a BH/Rifleman might exist. Or a BH/Pistoleer. Or a BH/Smuggler. They don't. There is exactly one BH template-BH/CM. If you know ANYONE who plays a BH and doesn't have at least 4004 CM, ask them how many jedi they've killed-I suspect the answer to be somewhere in the vicinity of 0.
I take it you haven't really digested what was written in this thread. Even if your target has a 75% CHANCE of armor break reduction slice (that is guestimated in my figures to actually nullify 75% of armor breaks effects) and you have a +20 Force Speed 2 buff on and have armor break applied to your target, you will STILL do 4% more damage to your target than if either you or your target had no slices, buffs, or debuffs applied to yourselves. Even if you only have Force Speed 1 (+10 combat speed) and Mushroom Pie, the results are the same.
In your worst case scenario, you will STILL be doing more damage than you would if both of you were running stock setups.
Message Edited by laz_souto on 08-17-2005 11:32 PM
hmph wrote:
Oh I'm just saying that the uncountable numbers of BH/CMs can't be totally wrong-they must be on to something.
