Jedi Archive
Thread: -40 Combat Speed Debuff. Does It Need a Nerf? Hard Numbers Inside.
laz_souto wrote:
We All Know It is a 26.Whatever speed diffrence, But what you seem to miss is how huge that is in a long duel. Take AB out of the picture. And Look at teh Damage Diffrence, 80 moves over 20 minutes is HUGE. If a jedi just does 500 a hit, multiply that by 80 and thats 40k damage he could of done, that would have taked 30.4 bacta shots (I suspect more I was using the data from teh Doc Stickies, I dont think it is adj. yet) from a Cm 4000 and aroudn 25 from a Mcm (Imagine the amount of mind and lost damage this is if the CM could have done 500 damage instead of each heal, thats 12500 damage more we would not have had to absorb). If A Healer 4xxx were to have used, should he not have lost 80 moves, them all on healing, thats 120k of healing lost over 20min. This is important becasue i believe that pre-speed nerf, BH/CM was already the pwning template. Now it is the ultra-pwn template. This just sets a Jedi that much farther back from being able to win.
I WILL NOT take armor break out of the picture. You can keep a player armor broken through an entire fight, and like I SHOWED you up there, that and Force Speed are MORE than an even counter for the speed debuff.
Use your TOOLS.
Your argument is like someone complaining that they get killed by a car while laying in the street. GET UP AND GET OUT OF THE ROAD.
You people whine that you have no counter, and I just SHOWED you that you DO.
End this rediculous nerf calling. I have basically DONE all the research you will ever need to be educated about this situation when you go fight people.
laz_souto wrote:
You have to remember not everyone has ArmorBreak and Force Speed. Alot of common templates miss that.
CM has alot more than we can reasonably counter
It has the SpeedDebuff (So if i have Armorbreak and Forcespeed i come out ahead, 1% was it)
It Has the Action/Mind Debuff (More Important really should they stack with speed debuff, I believe you will be looking at alot more terrifying results than you think, becasue my dps my be signifigantly lowered due to low action)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As a Mpowers Jedi, you are telling me I have to have LS x4xx/Enhancer 3xxx to come out ok? This is a template breaker to anyone but a Mdef/Ls x4x4/Enhancer 4xx4/Healer 4xxx teamplate. And on top of that, it is game changing due to the change. Plz include in yoru next post the diffrence, like if we came out 1% on top now with SB/FS then what did we come out on top before? I think you may see a GAMEBREAKING diffrence.
Ternque01 wrote:
mauvros wrote:
Name two attacks in anotherprofessionthat can be done and kept on the target in a perm state throught the entire fight that has such a damaging effect on DPS.
Stasis, Panic Shot, Concussion Shot, and Paralyze COMPLETELY END your DPS in combat. These skills can keep your DPS at zero for nearly an entire fight (barring a brief 10 second window every minute).
And you whine about 26.4%. I have presented numbers, and they agree with earlier tests that I have done. Do you expect me to take your word for it?
All of the above when applied to the target prevents that person from attacking. So both fighters are at ZERO Dps.
and please stop with your stupid 26.4 percent. Its an incorrect number and you using it every other post to prove a point.
Your tests didnt account for alot of factors, lag for one.
You simple need to look at the hard numbers. 140+ speed for MLS and Froce speed 2. -40 is a 29.59% reduction in speed.
Also, Intimidate added to this slow is a huge part of the problem.
----------------
Put it this way, healing is very strong right now for elite professions. Stronger than Jedi in many way. You cant have it all, superior healing and superior damage control.
A Pike with Doc can slow and intimidate a Jedi reducing his DPS by over 50%. With Doc 4 x x x that DPS is easily managed, thus keeping a Jedi toe to toe with a pikeman until he is out of force.
Slow should not be able to be chained, Slow needs diminishing returns, Slow needs to be changed to -15 to -20, Slow needs a cooldown timers, Slow needs to have its duration lessened.
Any of the above need to be done to balance combat.
antares
antares_Kauri wrote:
Mauvros is just another Jedi looking for the next nerf. He doesn't like intimidate and warcry, so he wants to nerf pikeman so he can sleep better at night, proud of himself.
antares
I like the specials, both of them.
I feel that they need to be balanced.
Force speed got nerfed. Speed foods got nerfed. Its only in line with the current balance that the -40 speed reduction gets balanced within the new speed buffs.
Also, some time of Defence vs Warcry needs to be added to the game, Or some type of state removal.
Can warcry be resisted? Ive never resisted this special. I have however had many many Elite professions resist, Blind,Stun, and Armor Break.
Message Edited by mauvros on 08-18-2005 06:56 AM
Ternque01 wrote:
slappydude wrote:
Ternque01 wrote:
A 26.4% decrease in a target's attack speed in well within balanced parameters for a debuff attack.It is in no danger of disrupting game balance.
that entirely depends on your point of view. Technically anything that gives one person an advantage over another disrupts balance. While your information is interesting I disagree with your conclusion as it is obviously coming from a biased perspective.
Personally, I think CM debuffs should be nerfed to be equal to jedi or jedi should be boosted to match CM. I'm not saying that one should be better than the other.
The only way to bring balance to the game is to actually ensure that one profession is not more powerful than another profession.
Jedi armor break probably reduces the effectiveness of non-Jedi armor by around 60%. Even with a top-notch, 75% chance of Armor Break mitigation armor slice, there is only a 75% chance that the effects of armor break will be mitigated to an unknown extent.
By your line of logic, non-Jedi should be able to get an armor buff that not only INCREASES their armor protection while not armor broke, but is also sufficiently strong to make sure that if they are armor broken, that the effects of armor break will be no different than if they were being protected by their unbuffed armor. In other words, your armor break would NEVER bring a non-Jedi's armor rating below the actually stated resists on the armor.
Do you think THAT would be fair??? Open your eyes!!! Armor Break is a INCREDIBLY more deadly debuff than the combat speed debuff. You make a 60% change in the ability of non-Jedi to protect themselves.
While you are busy striving for balance of the combat speed debuff, be sure to call for an armor buff that non-Jedi can apply before a battle that would completely negate your armor break if you apply it, yet healthily increase their armor protection if armor break is NOT applied.
Do it.
It is the same thing....
antares_Kauri wrote:
mauvros wrote:
Also, some time of Defence vs Warcry needs to be added to the game, Or some type of state removal.
Can warcry be resisted? Ive never resisted this special. I have however had many many Elite professions resist, Blind,Stun, and Armor Break.
There are several other effects that are unresistable and were intended to be that way, warcry and intimidate are the only things that make pikeman any different from the other professions, they are the defining specials and the only methods of tanking available for the profession.
Should there be resists for the Jedi effects that are unresistable?
antares
I can live with that,But the effect needs to be lowered then. -40 is to damn high considering our speed buffs have been nerfed and so have Docs, and Speed food.
Its only a matter of time until that debuff turns into -20.
What effects are you talking about anyway?
Sap? Nerfed
Stasis? Thats a 0 DPS for both.
Froce shock? Yeah, im sure that hurts so much
Stun? Resistable
Blind? Resistable
Armor break? Resistable
Choke? Resistable I think, either was its an offensive special
Weaken? Not sure, but who cares really
Intimidate? Ahhh there is one!! woot!
mauvros wrote:
You simple need to look at the hard numbers. 140+ speed for MLS and Froce speed 2. -40 is a 29.59% reduction in speed.
Also, Intimidate added to this slow is a huge part of the problem.
Ternque01 wrote:
mauvros wrote:
You simple need to look at the hard numbers. 140+ speed for MLS and Froce speed 2. -40 is a 29.59% reduction in speed.
Also, Intimidate added to this slow is a huge part of the problem.
I have clearly presented my data and done error analysis to present my 26.4% slowing effect, yet you call my result erroneous.
Where are you getting your 29.59% number? You haven't shown ANYONE this, and, besides, even a 29.59% reduction is STILL within a balanced ranged.
Use Armor Break. It is the perfect counter.
Armor break is not the perfect counter.
1. It can be resisted
2. Your slowing the time it takes to apply the break
3. By the time you apply the break due to the slow you get maybe 3 or 4 hits in before it comes off the target.
Make the duration of Armor Break the same duration as Warcry then.
MLS= 120 Speed
Force Speed 2= 20 speed
----------------------------------
Total speed= 140
Warcry= -40 speed
Jedi Speed= 140
-40 speed is 29.59 percent if 140 speed. Edit: sorry its 28.95%
Also please address why your speed debuf should stay the same even though all Speed specials have been nerfed?
Message Edited by mauvros on 08-18-2005 08:13 AM
WookieOgre wrote:
Ah, just a second. AB sliced for 75% will reduce the extra damage dealt by 75%. So a Jedi will only get 25% of the extra damage which = almost nothing while non-Jedi can do an AB on regular Jedi and get FULL damage since Jedi can not slice their armor.
Point is Armor Break actually hurts Jedi more than helps. It's just people are too stupid to not get their armor sliced or use AB on a Jedi to understand why.
btw, a Jedi with no Speed2 (like me) will have a 40% decrease in speed period (I think that is too strong). Even if I had Speed2 (20% increase in speed) that is only reducing your buff by 50%. Funny how AB slicing can reduce our damage Debuff by 75% though. If you want to be fair, perhaps the debuff should be reduced by 10 points (so a reduction of 30% in speed). That seems more fair than anything. And i think saying you have to be in combat to put the special on someone so it should remain this powerful is crap.....look at our Armor Break, we have to be within 5 dam meters in combat yet it still gets reduced by 75%.
WookieeOgre, I'll say this one more time. The 75% armor break slice gives a 75% CHANCE that the effects of armor break will be mitigated. That DOES NOT read as "reducing the effects of armor break by 75%". I'm not sure many people really know the amount that Armor Break mitigates the damage. I will also say that Armor Break is the PERFECT counter to the speed debuff.
Secondly, a Jedi with +100 lightsaber speed WILL NOT have their speed cut by 40% if they have the combat speed debuff on. Have you not read anything in this thread? I'll state this again: you will only see a decrease in attack speed of approximately 26.4% regardless of your combat speed. I have gotten the same number on pikets, huurtons, and a Jedi with Force Speed 1 turned on and off. PLEASE recognize these numbers, man.
Ternque01 wrote:
WookieOgre wrote:
Ah, just a second. AB sliced for 75% will reduce the extra damage dealt by 75%. So a Jedi will only get 25% of the extra damage which = almost nothing while non-Jedi can do an AB on regular Jedi and get FULL damage since Jedi can not slice their armor.
Point is Armor Break actually hurts Jedi more than helps. It's just people are too stupid to not get their armor sliced or use AB on a Jedi to understand why.
btw, a Jedi with no Speed2 (like me) will have a 40% decrease in speed period (I think that is too strong). Even if I had Speed2 (20% increase in speed) that is only reducing your buff by 50%. Funny how AB slicing can reduce our damage Debuff by 75% though. If you want to be fair, perhaps the debuff should be reduced by 10 points (so a reduction of 30% in speed). That seems more fair than anything. And i think saying you have to be in combat to put the special on someone so it should remain this powerful is crap.....look at our Armor Break, we have to be within 5 dam meters in combat yet it still gets reduced by 75%.
WookieeOgre, I'll say this one more time. The 75% armor break slice gives a 75% CHANCE that the effects of armor break will be mitigated. That DOES NOT read as "reducing the effects of armor break by 75%". I'm not sure many people really know the amount that Armor Break mitigates the damage. I will also say that Armor Break is the PERFECT counter to the speed debuff.
Secondly, a Jedi with +100 lightsaber speed WILL NOT have their speed cut by 40% if they have the combat speed debuff on. Have you not read anything in this thread? I'll state this again: you will only see a decrease in attack speed of approximately 26.4% regardless of your combat speed. I have gotten the same number on pikets, huurtons, and a Jedi with Force Speed 1 turned on and off. PLEASE recognize these numbers, man.
You couldnt be more wrong (See above highlight)
MLS= 120 speed
Warcry= -40 speed
------------------------------
-34% speed