Jedi Archive
Thread: the final straw
Diorchas wrote:
Zara,
The few times I've mentioned alternative ways to do it I've had people flame me. I've been called everything but a nice guy for suggesting that playing a Jedi means that you're expected to act like one. If you'd really like for me to draw up a proposal of sorts just to show that I'd rather be constructive than devisive I'd be happy to, but I won't post it here. That's just inviting all the idiots who'd see it only as a threat to their beloved status quo and would shout me down. Trying to bring original ideas to the table via the message boards is a lot like being a dissenting voice in Lord of the Flies. You just end up having people drop a rock on your head.
To me, the fatal flaw of many role-players is that they want to dictate how people act. Even when people act in a relatively normal fashion, given that this is an online game and all, some RPers still are not satisfied with that. They want people to take on roles and become their characters. They want a Jedi to walk around whispering platitudes and saying things like: "May the force be with you."
The problem is that not all of us want that. I for one feel... well... sort of stupid saying things like "Don't give in to your emotions, they will lead you to the Dark Side" except for as an occasional joke to lighten a heavy conversation. I just don't have fun role playing in a serious fashion. Also, some role-players can't really distinguish between genres. So even among the RPers, there are those that would break the mood anyway by throwing in words like "thou" or "ye" etc. Either that or they are overly polite like: "Excuse me kind sir, I don't mean to trouble you my esteemed friend, but could you direct me to the secret village of Aurila?" Give me a break! Is he role-playing a Britishnobleman in Star Wars or what? I usually just deal with such people quickly and move on. I don't really want to get sucked into whatever world they are trying to construct around themselves.
And really that is it isn't it. Role-players want the world to be a certain way. They want things to work out in their own image of the world. When people who are not part of that image intrude on them and spoil the fantasy, it makes them angry. Well I am sorry, but while I don't want to spoil people's fantasy idea of what a Jedi Knight is, I am certainly not going to modify my behavior so that I have less fun and they have more fun. I won't run around being a jackass either, but that hasless to do with being a Jedi Knight and more to do with being a relatively normal person.
To try to create rules that enforce certain behavior would only work if this behavior was something that the majority agreed was a good thing. To enforce behavior based on a minority opinion would of course never work. I can say this with a pretty high degree of certainty: SWG will never be a true role-playing game until the great majority of gamers have left it. Once that happens however, SWG will go out of business. So this means, unfortunately for the RPers, that they will just have to pretend and /addIgnore their way through the game.
Don't take my comments too harshly for while they may sound harsh, I am sympathetic. I used to play role-playing games long before people played them on computers. I did enjoy them, and they are largely why I play games like SWG today. Role-playing can be great fun and I don't look down on anyone who does it. I just don't like to pretend anymore. I play games for the pure gameplay entertainment factor nowadays. I didn't strive to become a Jedi Knight so I could role-play one, I just thought it would be cool to be a Jedi Knight, a big accomplishment to strive towards, like most of the rest of the players in the game.
Diorchas wrote:
Naquiel,
I respect that you took the time to explain your opinion even though I don't agree with it. I truly don't believe that the way the Devs are implementing PC Jedi bears any resemblance to how the Jedi are supposed to be as defined by Star Wars canon. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
As far as the whole "If you want to roleplay a Jedi, play a PnP game" argument... why should I have to? This is supposed to be a roleplaying game too. Somehow I very much doubt that if the shoe was on the other foot you'd be so philosophical. You can be sure that if the devs made it a "roleplay only" game the powergamers and PvPers would be cursing up a storm. So why should roleplayers just have to accept it and shut up? I don't think that expecting to have a fair opportunity to roleplay a character is an unreasonable demand, and as it stands there is no way I can ever do that under the current system. Roleplayers and casual gamers are completely shut out from being able to play a Jedi Master. How is that fair?
Message Edited by Naquiel on 08-27-2004 11:08 AM
Diorchas wrote:
Zara,
The few times I've mentioned alternative ways to do it I've had people flame me. I've been called everything but a nice guy for suggesting that playing a Jedi means that you're expected to act like one. If you'd really like for me to draw up a proposal of sorts just to show that I'd rather be constructive than devisive I'd be happy to, but I won't post it here. That's just inviting all the idiots who'd see it only as a threat to their beloved status quo and would shout me down. Trying to bring original ideas to the table via the message boards is a lot like being a dissenting voice in Lord of the Flies. You just end up having people drop a rock on your head.
See, it's just really difficult to try and have this discussion here though from my perspective. You obviously have an image of what jedi should be, but all I can do is try to help within the constructs of the game. The part that is standing out to me here though is the comment I bolded, because there's no game construct that ever has, or ever will, exist based on how people act. By and large, MMORPG's are supposed to be role-playing games, but the large base they sell to are non-roleplayers. Myself, I'm personally not a role-player, I'm a gamer, and I look at things from how the systems behind things work.
The only thing that is standing out to me from a gamer perspective, is you're looking at more of the KOTOR style of quests. Going through these chains of events and through your actions gaining light and dark side ranking as well as experience. This would be possible, however, not in SWG. SWG isn't based enough around quests to make someone's actions and responses work, also, from a gamer perspective, if I really wanted to be a light jedi I can just say the correct answers, but when I'm in the cantina, I'm free to act like a moron and hit on the dancers.
The only controling mechanism we have in an MMO is the experience, and in order for jedi to act like jedi, it would be up to every other single person on the server that the person interacted with to give that, which is a huge headache and grief/exploit waiting to happen.
Maybe I'm reading that incorrectly, if I am correct me.
But playing a jedi and being stupid is a players choice, but it is also a players choice to roleplay the character after they get a jedi to, did you ever think of that. The rulse of the game ar for everyone to play, if you want to roleplay, you have to get the tool first and play with it any you want. The tools are not going to be handed to you. And yes you are trying to force a RP only aspect to the game and its not going to happen.
Diorchas wrote:
Idris,
I understand and respect your points. While the post you quoted makes it sound as if I want to impose a "RP Only" paradigm in this game, that's not true. I understand that it's not feasible to do that.
What I'm arguing for is for the system to INCLUDE roleplayers, not expressly exclude them, which is has done. They have completely removed any reasonable chance for roleplayers and casual gamers to be able to play a Jedi Master and put those characters in the hands of the people least capable of using them to enhance the game's atmosphere. Why do you think there are so many people complaining about how the "Jedi" act right now? Are they ALL whiners/jealous? Maybe... just MAYBE... it's a sign that there are a LOT of people ticked off about the Devs rewarding these asshats with something that they specifically deny to more mature, creative gamers.
Just a thought.
Naquiel wrote:
Diorchas wrote:Naquiel,I respect that you took the time to explain your opinion even though I don't agree with it. I truly don't believe that the way the Devs are implementing PC Jedi bears any resemblance to how the Jedi are supposed to be as defined by Star Wars canon. We'll just have to agree to disagree.As far as the whole "If you want to roleplay a Jedi, play a PnP game" argument... why should I have to? This is supposed to be a roleplaying game too. Somehow I very much doubt that if the shoe was on the other foot you'd be so philosophical. You can be sure that if the devs made it a "roleplay only" game the powergamers and PvPers would be cursing up a storm. So why should roleplayers just have to accept it and shut up? I don't think that expecting to have a fair opportunity to roleplay a character is an unreasonable demand, and as it stands there is no way I can ever do that under the current system. Roleplayers and casual gamers are completely shut out from being able to play a Jedi Master. How is that fair?Yes it is a game where ppl can roleplay, but you have to have your tools to roleplay, and its not going to be different from the non-roleplayers. You want to use a Master Jedi for roleplaying, you have to get a Master Jedi the same way as everyone else. You can PVP or not as a master, but get use to running alot, or just lvl up all the way to up to knight and just dont take the trials and stay a neutral and roleplay your character.But you keep arguing that you want the devs to bend to your RPrules will when it is not for the greater good for the whole community, you want your tools for RPing, you have to aquire them the same way as everyone else. If you dont like it, just dont play or do the next best thing and pretend your a master jedi(roleplayers are good at pretending).Edit: and for your argument of if the shoe was on the other foot, it was in the begining. The game was massively set up for roleplayers, but the devs found out the hard way that the many ppl playing are not here to RP. So the game changed, but SWG is like any other MMORPG. they all have tools for RPing, but the rules apply to all players so there is no advantage over others.Message Edited by Naquiel on 08-27-2004 11:08 AM
I'm not saying that the Devs should bend to my rules. I'm saying that they need to provide a way for people with varying playstyles to achieve Jedi Mastery. There's a huge difference there. I'm sorry, but it's the height of arrogance for you to say that providing a way for roleplayers to attain Jedi Mastery is "not good for the whole community." The WHOLE community includes roleplayers. Yet under the current system roleplayers and casual gamers are utterly snubbed. It is almost impossible for them to attain Mastery.
For you to say that the incoming system is one that doesn't give an advantage to any group of players is ludicrous. Combat characters can more easily get the village invite. Combat characters can grind through their XP more efficiently. The entire enforced PvP endgame for Jedi completely excludes other kinds of playstyle. This is only "fair" to your section of gamers, hence why you have trouble understanding why others don't think it's fair at all.
Zarathustra wrote:
<snip>
This is one of the most confined and restrictive periods this game is set in. If they don't keep on expanding what can be done in the game, this game will become stagnate and die.
Diorchas wrote:
Well, this thread has gotten to an impasse. People are no longer listening to what I'm saying(but you where not listening to what we where saying)and are accusing me of wanting things I don't want(we know you want to have a jedi without combat, but it is not going to happen with how the player base is right now). I don't want Jedi to be combat-free. I don't even want them to be PvP-free. I supported the whole Jedi/BH thing. This is about making the Jedi end game ALL ABOUT PvP(which we have been ting to tell you that if you want to RP in the time frame the devs have set, this will mean you will have to fight, and PVP is a part of it). How many times do I have to say this? How manyt times do we have to tell you?
Well, however many times it might have taken, I won't know(as i see it, you chose to not want to see it, thats why you have desided to just kept telling us what you wanted for the last 5 pages). Because I'm done here. I appreciate that most people were civil with me and discussed their opinions with me in a mature way. But I'll never be convinced that the Devs did a good thing with how they've chosen to implement the PvP-only system(well the devs did give you this choice since befor the game came out, it is your problem of overlooking it when it came time to wanting to play a jedi). No one will convince me that it is best for the game, the community or for the idea of playing a Jedi at all(well it might not be the best, but its all we got for right now). No one will convince me that any change that includes the possibility of roleplayers actually being able to RP their way to Mastery is impossible(since you still didnt listen to me, i will say it again. To RP in SWG you will have to play like anyone else to get what you need to RP, and if it means you have to do combat you will have to do it by the devs rules). And no one will convince me that SOE has any intention whatsoever of making this game anything more than EQ in space... with crafters. hehehe
And, in the final analysis, that last thing is the most egregious in a long list of Dev betrayals(how is it a betrayal, they have said from day one that jedi will be hunted the whole time there in the game, they never did list how to RP in the game, and you are blasting them for things you dont know). They've betrayed half of their player base, they've betrayed their own promises about what this game would be about and they've betrayed the very ideas that comprised the Star Wars universe(ok, i really think you need just move on to another game, since you have no clue what is in this game). I wish all of you nothing but the very best and that you enjoy your time in the game. I only wish that there had been a way that I could have joined you and enjoyed myself in the process.
Take care, everyone.
If you want to know how ppl can RP in sWG read Phigons post above.
Message Edited by Naquiel on 08-27-2004 02:39 PM
Message Edited by Naquiel on 08-27-2004 02:40 PM
PhiGon wrote:
I think that Jedi can be roleplayed but I don't think it would be satisfying to a hard-core roleplayer who wishes to live in a role-play mode 24/7. To me, playing a jedi and roleplaying a jedi is all in how you view the game and the situation you are in.
I enjoy some roleplay every once in a while as it provides some entertainment to interact in a Star Wars atmosphere - especially when others are portraying in kind. It is interesting to see some of the deep thought that has gone into the backgrounds, goals, etc. of roleplayers.
However, if someone wanted to be both Jedi and a Roleplayer in SWG, then I think the player would have to had to bend to the "regular" gameplay of non-roleplayers in order to get there as well as a certain degree of it while in Jedi.
It is all a matter of how you look at the game (as many here have said).
While I was doing my brief stint of holo-grinding, my RP background was geared towards leaving my family profession based on an object I found (holocron). My family was dissappointed in me, my wife and friends thought I was imagining it and had gone crazy. I didn't think of it as grinding but as following a "irrestible path" to freeing a jedi who is trapped looking to be released (my unlocked jedi). My RP goal was to find him and free him. I had a fully developed history that enforced this grind as a roleplayer.
Once you are around other roleplayers, you can switch gears and be the jedi you want and think jedi should be. When facing PVP and bounty hunters, you do what you have to in order to survive. If you run then use that in your roleplay. Spin it however you like.
When it all comes down to it, you are still in control of how you play and what you can achieve. It is all in how you perceive the game and how you can spin it to make it the experience you want it to be.
Great post and great ideas, 5 stars.
Alteran Chase
Diorchas wrote:
Well, this thread has gotten to an impasse. People are no longer listening to what I'm saying and are accusing me of wanting things I don't want. I don't want Jedi to be combat-free. I don't even want them to be PvP-free. I supported the whole Jedi/BH thing. This is about making the Jedi end game ALL ABOUT PvP. How many times do I have to say this?
Well, however many times it might have taken, I won't know. Because I'm done here. I appreciate that most people were civil with me and discussed their opinions with me in a mature way. But I'll never be convinced that the Devs did a good thing with how they've chosen to implement the PvP-only system. No one will convince me that it is best for the game, the community or for the idea of playing a Jedi at all. No one will convince me that any change that includes the possibility of roleplayers actually being able to RP their way to Mastery is impossible. And no one will convince me that SOE has any intention whatsoever of making this game anything more than EQ in space... with crafters. hehehe Actually you are missing a very key component in all this. Lucas Arts has a heavy hand in what SOE does with SWG and for that matter gives the Yes or No to almost everything content wise for SWG. Hell LA had to give SOE the ok for much of the content for JTL. So in many ways you are missing the point that the makers of Star Wars have OK'd almost everything that SOE has done. So don't place all the blame on SOE, you need to dump on the actual makers of Star Wars as well.
And, in the final analysis, that last thing is the most egregious in a long list of Dev betrayals. They've betrayed half of their player base, they've betrayed their own promises about what this game would be about and they've betrayed the very ideas that comprised the Star Wars universe. I wish all of you nothing but the very best and that you enjoy your time in the game. I only wish that there had been a way that I could have joined you and enjoyed myself in the process.
Take care, everyone.