Jedi Archive

Thread: [Discussion] Removal of XP loss upon BH death?

Jacella
Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:27 pm
#92






silversaber wrote:






Jacella wrote:





silversaber wrote:



If playing this game the way the Devs have intended it is griefing you, then you have a really serious problem on your hands. You mean like BH's that enjoy their job?


Its NOT our fault that the Devs have changed the rules so muchon how Jedi are created and leveled in game. You mean like the way BH's do their job?


It is NO excuse to destroy the gameplay of other just because you dont like the way the Devs have created the game and set the rules. You mean like how BH cause xp loss?


We are onlyplaying the game the way the Devs intended. Thats the ONLY way we can play this game. You mean like how BH's play the game and cause xp loss?


Iether accept this and learn how to actually enjoy the game with others as it is, or quit because the Devs are NOT going to all of a sudden remove all the Jedi in the game because YOU dont like it. Like how the Dev's won't get rid of xp loss?








Thank you for finishing the arguement and supporting the Bounty Hunter perspective. Have a nice day







Once again, enjoying toplay a BH the way the Devs intended it to be played is fine. PvP for the sake of the challenge is perfectly fine. Yes the Devs put exp loss in the game to make the Jedi more carefull in game. The put in XP loss to slow progression and cause people to quit...who ar you fooling?


But I DO know that the Devs never intended it to be played with the intent to purposly harrass, grief and overall destroy the gameplay of others. If xp loss is harassment or destroys your gameplay, then go TKM/Swords/Doc...then you can be strong and never have to worry about xp loss.


Thats why they removed the names of Jedi off the terminals, so that a single BH cannot repeatedly target and grief certain Jedi. They removed the names to remove griefing...so how can BH's be griefing you now??






Please look up the words Griefing and Harrassment. I don't think that you understand them in this context properly. You need to stick to one story or the other..you can't say that jedi are being played as intended and then turn around and say that someone else that is playing the game as it was designed are griefing.





___________________(J)__________________
||There is no other (Sith-)||ggggggggggggggg
ggggggggggggggggggggggggg||Jacella||

silversaber
Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:04 pm
#93






Jacella wrote:



Please look up the words Griefing and Harrassment. I don't think that you understand them in this context properly. You need to stick to one story or the other..you can't say that jedi are being played as intended and then turn around and say that someone else that is playing the game as it was designed are griefing.





The difference between playing as intended and griefing is the actual intentions of the player.


If a player unlocks a Jedi and plays it to enjoy it, then thats ok.Thats what they are in the game for, to be enjoyed.


Thats why 90% of the playerbase plays a MMORPG, to enjoy it and have FUN. It IS a game after all.


If you play a BH for the challenge and fun of hunting another player (Jedi), thats intended. Go have fun! I know ofa of BH that just plays it for the thrill of the chase, and dont even bother with the DB.


Yet if you play iether a Jedi OR a BH for the specific reason to disrupt the fun of others, basically try to make them to stop playing altogether by disrupting thier fun as much as possible, thats griefing.


You specifically said you play a BH to forceothers playing a Padiwan to stop playing thier char or force them out of the game if you could.


Thats griefing. No if's, and's or but's about it.


Its one thing to enjoy PvP for the challenge and fun, its another to use it as a bludgeon to destroy the fun of others.


Its a HUGE difference


Thorkahn
Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:30 pm
#94






silversaber wrote:






Jacella wrote:



Please look up the words Griefing and Harrassment. I don't think that you understand them in this context properly. You need to stick to one story or the other..you can't say that jedi are being played as intended and then turn around and say that someone else that is playing the game as it was designed are griefing.





The difference between playing as intended and griefing is the actual intentions of the player.


If a player unlocks a Jedi and plays it to enjoy it, then thats ok.Thats what they are in the game for, to be enjoyed.


Thats why 90% of the playerbase plays a MMORPG, to enjoy it and have FUN. It IS a game after all.


If you play a BH for the challenge and fun of hunting another player (Jedi), thats intended. Go have fun! I know ofa of BH that just plays it for the thrill of the chase, and dont even bother with the DB.


Yet if you play iether a Jedi OR a BH for the specific reason to disrupt the fun of others, basically try to make them to stop playing altogether by disrupting thier fun as much as possible, thats griefing.


You specifically said you play a BH to forceothers playing a Padiwan to stop playing thier char or force them out of the game if you could.


Thats griefing. No if's, and's or but's about it.


Its one thing to enjoy PvP for the challenge and fun, its another to use it as a bludgeon to destroy the fun of others.


Its a HUGE difference






QFE




IGN
Thorkahn- Jedi Lvl 90
Tom'we Frankensteiner- BH Lvl 90
Syrena- Trader Domestic
Xena- Entertainer
Vendors: 4050, -4170 Moenia, Naboo
abbink
Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:45 pm
#95

i currently think that there is just way too much friction between players becauseof the pvp between jedi and bounty hunters. i think it just needs to be done away with. theoriginal purpose of the skill loss thing was so that jedi players cant have their buddies get their missions repeatedly and make tons of credits. Now that the terminals have been changed so that you cant tell who your hunting at first...there really is no need for skill loss anymore. No skill loss would actually minimise the contention but eliminating the jedi vs bh thing would end the contention i think... it just causes way too much friction in this game...read the jedi and bh forum thousands of posts are only about it.






Too often players and the devs have a mindset that professions should be balanced with 1 on 1 pvp in mind. This mindset is ruining the game. The benchmark for balance should be determined by the role a profession plays in a group setting. As long as the current mindset continues we will never see uniqueness among the professions, nor will we ever see individuality within a given profession. We will never see the SWG universe expanded as the focus will only ever be balance pass after balance pass after balance pass.


Message Edited by abbink on 07-26-200609:32 AM


QuiJonOz
Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:49 pm
#96






Fugitron wrote:

There has been alot of comments latelyabout completely removing XP loss from the BH system. This thread is to discuss the "possibility" and PROs and CONs if this did occur. Pleasetry to keep flaming down and to stay on-topic. BHs are welcome to give constructive input.


Some following questions to consider when discussing:


JEDI:


- Do you beleive the BH system currently is effectively stopping the growth of jedi (as intended) ?

- If XP loss was removed would you feel as much "tension" when losing to a BH ?

- If this occured do you beleive the grind would now be "too easy", "just right", or still "too hard" ?

- Does XP loss now (or even when grinding) make you "show off" less ?


BOUNTY HUNTER:


- What is the main motivation for hunting player jedi (please be honest) ?

Back when I could choose targets my intent was to go after Jedi showing off in public areas such as in front of starports. In this era Jedi are supposed to be in hiding, not frollicking in front of starports showing how l33t they are.

- Do you beleive its fair that jedi are the only profession in the game that loses something upon (BH) death ?

Yes. It was designed from the get go that there would be significant risks to becoming a Jedi. Watering down those risks has led to the Jedi population problem this game now has.

- If they took away jedi XP loss would you hunt as many jedi as you do now ?

Hard to say... the little I play my BH character anymore I've been doing the new NPC missions. Since I can't pick my Jedi marks, I can't try to help drive them out of the starports.

- If XP loss remains do you beleive BHs should be punished for losses or consecutive losses ?

Only if BH are redesigned to be 1.5x more powerful than other players, all get uber Mandalorian Armor upon becoming Novice BH, and get a second character slot.



Remember PLEASE try to stay on task and try not to flame eachother - someone will disagree with you - agree to disagree. Maybe if we have enough good input we might be stickied (at least for a bit)









No decay + uber loot = /spit on crafters

Fix the economy and give crafters their $$$ worth... give us real revamp.

Remember... to Cancel you have to go to Register Expansion in the Launchpad.

Atz_Breh
Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:54 pm
#97

i´m BH and Jedi


as BH i say:

keep xp loss, i wouldn´t hunt Rebel Jedi if they didn´t loose XP...


as Jedi i say:

keep xp loss, i like the challenge...
JeffroTGIF
Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:27 pm
#98

If a BH loses, they wind up on boards for failing



Jeffro----Jedi Something or Other
Tal'el----Master Bio-Engineer
Joriko----Bounty Hunter
Chilastra Server

Fugitron
Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:49 pm
#99



READ



I have read all the posts in this thread, and I can kind of place people's opinions on this into certain categories:



1 - Pre-9 Jedi: These players figure since they worked so hard that the new jedi should have the equivelent. These Jedi also got to play jedi when it WAS as powerful as they were supposed to be, so there was a bigger reward. Typically PvP powergamers.


2 - Pre-CU Village Jedi:(I fall into here) Still a very hard grind to do with not as big of a reward (jedi power was reduced with "Jedi Revamp"). Kinda can learn a tad both ways, not really feelin for the old jedi or the new. Not power gamers but not quite casual gamers either.


3 - Post-CU Jedi: Easiest grind for jedi ever, however also most have weaker sabers and have only got to experience the watered-down versions of jedi that we know today. Most feel that their jedi (with the "average" saber) are only on par to some regular temps and find no reward for being forced into a PvP environment. Mostly casual gamers who don't have an eye for PvP, people who just want to play the game.


4 - (BH) Griefers: These would be the BHs that LOVE tormenting jedi and causing them pain by XP loss. These were the same BHs that would Triple and Quad gank a single jedi, and often times bottom feed on the same jedi. The want nothing more to have all jedi die except for the ones they can easily kill.


5 - The Bounty Huner: People who play the BH for the thrill of the hunt and don't neccssarily want to harm anyone. They see the flaw in the Risk vs Reward situation, but cannot bypass it.


6 - Average Joe: The non-BH and Non-Jedi player trying to understand the concepts here. No matter what input they make niether side takes them seriously.



All in all, you got to see that the playstyles of individuals is DRAMTICALLY different accross the board. Yes, I understand that each of those categories can have a sub-cats and so on, but you get the idea.


To all those people who beleive EVERYONE should work as hard as them, every heard of the saying the first generation plants the seeds the next enjoy the shade.... this is what jedi has become. I am sorry you worked so hard (heck I worked my butt off too), but the game has changed and jedi itself has changed. To continue to have the same "restrictions" is ludicrous considering the watered down state of jedi.


I know many of you do not agree with me and that is completely fine. All I have to say is instead of trying to pound your ideas into people or rant or yell what you want. Take a stop back and listen and discuss ideas. Maybe then everyone can come to a comprimise.





Message Edited by Fugitron on 09-08-2005 07:35 AM








Fugis L'dia
CHoL Founder and Tribunal Leader
"If you don't like us you must be Imp"


Fingerofthrawn
Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:17 pm
#100








Fugitron wrote:


There has been alot of comments latelyabout completely removing XP loss from the BH system. This thread is to discuss the "possibility" and PROs and CONs if this did occur. Pleasetry to keep flaming down and to stay on-topic. BHs are welcome to give constructive input.


Some following questions to consider when discussing:


JEDI:


- Do you beleive the BH system currently is effectively stopping the growth of jedi (as intended) ?

No, but as soon as perma-death was removed it was no longer a "stopping" measure, but an inconvenience at most. A more effective way to stop Jedi growth would be too make other professions WORTH PLAYING!!!


- If XP loss was removed would you feel as much "tension" when losing to a BH ?

No, but I wouldn't consider them all impotent, closet socio-path, pom-pom waving SOE endorsed griefer fanbois either


- If this occured do you beleive the grind would now be "too easy", "just right", or still "too hard" ?

Too easy, but let's get one thing clear: it was the all-knowing devs and their wonderful CURB that made the grind too easy. Let's think... maybe if they had let US TEST THE FLIPPIN THING FOR MORE THAN 5 DAYS and WITH MORE THAN 6 TESTERS we could have told them that "yeah, DUH- a noob Jedi in an AoE group can get ridiculous amounts of XP and literally spin to full temp within 2 weeks easy". Oh wait, that would have meant that they would have actually had to release a somewhat finished product instead of the alpha test monstrosity that they did release- my bad.

Don't hate the players, hate the developers.

My idea (which will be about as popular as a skunk at a wedding)- take away XP loss for BH and JvJ deaths (of course XP loss would be substituted for FRS loss I assume in a new FRS either way- but the Knights are PvP Jedi anyways), reintroduce it for factional PvP and bring back saber TEF inside major non-player cities. Less Jedi will run from BHs (unless they don't feel like 1/2 an hour of heal wars, but who doesn't?), less Jedi will participate in the GCW, less Jedi will feel it necessary to let everyone that's in shouting range know that they're a jedi= everyone wins but the ub3r-l33t. My reasoning for this is simple: it was made to be THE profession for PvP power-gamers, PvP IS THE JEDI "END-GAME" the penalty should reflect that, not some arbitrary "vis" system thatdeters people from experiencing content. I understood the concept of vis pre-CU when Jedi made great loot-whores, but I fail to see the reasoning for it now that just about the only things that give loot are BH NPC marks & most of the NPCs that have seen me sure haven't lived long enough to tell anyone.


- Does XP loss now (or even when grinding) make you "show off" less ?

No, but I play the Jedi hermit- I wear regular clothes until my robes are needed for a quest encounter, only my in-game friends and people in my grind groups know that I'm a Jedi. Here's another no-brainer by the devs though, they made Jedi a profession that PvPers are going to gravitate to (mistake #1), what's the deterrent for them showing off in starports? Guaranteed 1v1 gank-free PvP? Yeah, that's the BEST way to make sure they don't show off.

Of course, regardless, I'm still on the terms constantly since after 9+ months of grinding XP on thousands of poor bolle bol stompers, gurrecks, borgle bats, quenkers and GVTs I dare *gasp!* to want to try to enjoy some of the content, 99.99% of which involves killing NPCs /sigh.


BOUNTY HUNTER:


- What is the main motivation for hunting player jedi (please be honest) ?

Griefing. 3 out of 5 BHs will tell you that they "do it for the thrill of the hunt", but they scream bloody murder at any thought that mentions that BHs might deserve a little XP loss or the removal of Jedi XP loss because it would make the hunt less worthy somehow. Small words- if your sole reason to kill another player is to cause XP loss YOU ARE A GRIEFER, doesn't matter if SOE endorses it or not.


- Do you beleive its fair that jedi are the only profession in the game that loses something upon (BH) death ?

Pre-CU: Yes, Post-CU: NO, we are not 1/2 the profession we were before the CU, the "reward" is gone, and so is the thrill of a BH visit- if I wanted to get involved in a half-hour "Heal-War" in the middle of attempting to help a friend through a quest..well, I'd ask for it, thanks


- If they took away jedi XP loss would you hunt as many jedi as you do now ?

I would start hunting Jedi to be honest- I don't enjoy XP loss, I've ground enough XP in the last couple years of playing, I don't believe I should should have to regrind more, so I choose not to be a hypocrite and refuse to cause anyone else XP loss either.


- If XP loss remains do you beleive BHs should be punished for losses or consecutive losses ?

Nah, though I do think they should be put on the terms themselves (they would still be able to hunt Jedi though)- after all, let's see- there are NPC missions for "rogue BHs" and I don't think the BH guild would look to highly on a failed bounty hunter. Plus, it's the thrill of the hunt right? Well, every hunter becomes the hunted at some point, enjoy



Remember PLEASE try to stay on task and try not to flame eachother - someone will disagree with you - agree to disagree. Maybe if we have enough good input we might be stickied (at least for a bit)





Message Edited by Fingerofthrawn on 09-07-2005 11:20 PM



No flashy sig here, move along.... move along.
guitoorbenchi
Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:49 pm
#101



JEDI:


- Do you beleive the BH system currently is effectively stopping the growth of jedi (as intended) ?
- If it was meant to stop the growth, its doing a terrible job, because it cant be stopped, only slowed.

- If XP loss was removed would you feel as much "tension" when losing to a BH ?
-Not as much, but still tension, personally, i dont want to be someones trophy...with the screenshots and the tag in the BH profile.

- If this occured do you beleive the grind would now be "too easy", "just right", or still "too hard" ?

-easier, but not "too easy" considering the state that the jedi profession is already in

- Does XP loss now (or even when grinding) make you "show off" less ?

-I'm one of those jedi that takes those careful steps as to not get on terms, and i've been a jedi for a few months now, and i havent been hunted once, the people that are getting hunted, just aren't putting in that extra effort to stay off the terms.

BOUNTY HUNTER:


- What is the main motivation for hunting player jedi (please be honest) ?
- Just to (*truck*) you over and make some cash in the process....THATS RIGHT!!! I SAID IT!!! I'M ONLY SAYING WHAT ANY BH IS THINKING!!!

- Do you beleive its fair that jedi are the only profession in the game that loses something upon (BH) death ?
-It doesnt bother me, staying off the terms isntthat hard.

- If they took away jedi XP loss would you hunt as many jedi as you do now ?
-I thought about this, it would be nice if they did take it away, considering jedi is already been nerfed to hell, but i think that something like this would be too easy to exploit

- If XP loss remains do you beleive BHs should be punished for losses or consecutive losses ?
-Yeah, In all reality, if a BH fails a mission for someone (lets say jabba for example) chances are, jabba would A. take care of the bad BH, and B. send out someone more powerful, and possibly up the reward.
rebellious_imp
Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:07 am
#102

dueling in a starport = perma death
wearing your jedi tag = perma death
wearing your jedi robe = perma death
elite speak in spacial = perma death
if your a wookiee = perma death (sorry, I have been getting lots of drinks with fur in them at the cantina lately)



---- There is no life outside this present moment in the past or the future ----
Sidalo
Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:12 am
#103

Leave XP loss on BH death the way it is right now.


If the XP nerf comes back down the road at some point, then maybe an argument can be made for 1x SP instead of 2x SP.


I believe clone XP loss should also come back. Not as high as it used to be, but something there to add detriment to AFK grinders and others. A little more careful with things instead of being reckless.


Maybe have .5 x SP as clone loss instead of the static tiered system that used to be in place.


Old - 200k max clone loss


New - 123k max clone loss (unfinished templates would see less and starting templates would see a lot less)


This would be more proportional to a players strength rather than losing 200k for having just 1 tier 4 box.


Plus since Combat Medics, Doctors and anyone with rez arm can rez you there would be a lot less cloning than there used to be.


Not too mention the Hero of tat ring which does not have a ton of usefulness anymore. Some but not nearly as much.



Just my brainstorm




Sidalo Yalew - Sith Apprentice
Renamed - Master Merchant

All Accounts Cancelled by NGE
Jacella
Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:15 am
#104






gera wrote:






Jacella wrote:


I want jedi to have an obsticle to finish their templates. I want some jedi to quit because jedi is too hard. I want some jedi to not log in their jedi because they FEAR something. I want jedi to become a shadow if it's former glory and for the wussy wimps that whine endlessly about everything to just give up on their jedi and play one of these other professions that they say id better than jedi. I want the jedi population to decrease so that those of us that have worked darned hard to become good and strong players can regain some level of respect unstead of having every other profession think we are nothing but whiny babies who want an insti-i-win button.


That is the truth!







That's whats ironic. Whoever non-jedi hate mostly is opposite of what you mean. Those who never cares about XP debt, those who duels in front of starports, those who does not FEAR anything.


That only makes L337 kiddies having their pwnzor templates and increasing main hatred against all others.







Sorry, but can you expound on this? I am not entirely sure what you mean.





___________________(J)__________________
||There is no other (Sith-)||ggggggggggggggg
ggggggggggggggggggggggggg||Jacella||

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