Jedi Archive

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WookieOgre wrote:

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Orange-Lazarus wrote:

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UberNinjaOfDoom wrote:

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Orange-Lazarus wrote:
who cares about fixing the bugs just nerf cloak its the lamest skill i ever seen in any game

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Perfect example of Jedi spirit of community. Its cloak this week Stasis next week. Good going ! Keep it up !! Why don't you tell us how you really feel .

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hmmm yes even tho stasis dont work 50% of the time lol

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So when it gets nerfed can we actually come back and tell you it's the lamest skill in the game, it deserved to be nerfed?

Once again, Nerf everyone except youuntil your skills are under thenerf rifle .

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Message Edited by Orange-Lazarus on 09-21-2005 01:44 PM

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lunatin wrote:
what a joke

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Guys... Please reconsider channel for the following reasons:

1. You advertise cloak as an alpha strike capability...

2. To alpha strike you must get up to your opponant with a light saber because powers do little to nothing to another Jedi which is who we will fight as regular players seldom PvP and the FRS will probably be PvP for our rankings.

3. Most if not all PvP occurs in cities and/or large base environments in a group setting... Cloak takes 25 force per mob / 10 sec

4. If I am snared like AI and I have to walk through theed for 2 or 3 minutes to get to my target, I'll not have enough force left to do an Alpha strike if I cannot channel while cloaked.

The lack of channel and/or the snare is going to render the skill 100% useless unless you happen to be standing in the middle of a desert and an overt happens by w/in 5 meters.

Common guys, please at least look at how this is supposed to work.

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WookieOgre wrote:

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Eskie wrote:

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Helios_SOE wrote:

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Baciacca wrote:

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sanct_squadleader wrote:
Bac, we need to know if we will be able to channel force while cloaked, if not then they are screwing us over royaly

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Im trying to get a list of what commands that can be used while under cloak.

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So far, the only command we have in the can-use list for the new hiding/stealth sub-system (of which ForceCloak is now a part of) is the Rifleman ConcealShot. Everything else combat-related (including heals) tends to break you out, at the moment.

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Not looking good so far at all.
- A snare prevents you from getting close to your opponents, so no alpha strike there. If you try, your Force will drain a lot.
- Not being able to heal oneself while cloaked will leave cloaked Jedi pretty vulnerable to area attacks.

Most of the changes to cloak are needed - especially the looting / terminal operation / assisting others fixes.
However, the snare to prevent Cloak being used as escape skill will not work because a) it also prevents the alpha-strike capability and b) people will still be able to cloak to escape if they are 20m away from any opponent. The Root / Force Run / Cloak combo will still be the most effective getaway. The snare will not prevent escaping because unlike Avoid Incapacition, Force Cloak makes you invulnerable (except for area attacks) the instant you use it.
Assisting oneself while cloaked should also be allowed - it is not just a "cloak and regen", it is a "cloak and regen while your opponent also regens". Being able to employ hit-and-run attacks is vital for Master Force Wielders since their offense has a lower damage output than a Lightsaber Master, while usually having less defenses than a Lightsaber Master, also (usually Lightsaber is coupled with Force Defense, while Force Wielder is coupled with Force Enhancement to control the higher Force costs of the Force Wielder attacks).

Most of the complaints about Force Cloak stem from the fact that Force Cloak currently is a great "I can control the flow of the fight" skill, and the ones complaining usually have templates that are built to defeat tank-type opponents that just stand there and fight, which involves only marginal investment in crowd control abilities. The people complaining about losing control of a battle due to Force Cloak will complain about losing control of a battle due to Force Stasis next.
Before attaching a snare or prohibit self-assists I strongly encourage you to look into the counters to Force Cloak already present - there are plenty. Otherwise, you are taking a viable template choice and forcing people into one specific template - without Force Cloak, people will need other, "real" defenses and better healing abilities. Most will choose MLS / Enh 3402 / Def 4040 / Heal 4000 or slight variations thereof.

Message Edited by Eskie on 09-21-2005 01:49 PM

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You assume too much. Helios has already stated they will not allow it to be used as an escape tactic. Someone already asked if FR would be a vaild command you can use with Cloak, the answer didn't directly say no, but indirectly read between the lines.....you will not be able to FR/Burst run if you intend to use Cloak.

Just expect the skill to be nerfed to the point you are allowed to do nothing but crawl around like a turtle.

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Phenix1050 wrote:

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Durzel wrote:
Master Powers has NO alpha strike skill.

Choke? 150 dmg a tick at best against any reasonable defence Jedi.
Lightning? Negligible damage against any reasonable defence Jedi.
Breach? Assuming it even hits it has a low roll to remove zero or more buffs which can be instantly reapplied.

Tell me - what is MPowers Alpha Strike?

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Alpha, in this context, means FIRST, not BEST. Any of the attacks you listed would be considered an "alpha strike", considering that if you're cloaked, you get to choose when to attack. If you open up with choke, then choke was your alpha strike. Bounty Hunters, for example, have "alpha strike" capability, but that doesn't translate into a single attack theymust used to open up conflict with. It's the general concept of being able to determine when to fight. Rangers and Jedi will be able to do this-- if they're stealthed, they choose when to engage an enemy. But that doesn't mean they need a specific attack with is better while stealthed.

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How is cloak gonna be an alpha/first-strike attack when you have to "crawl" up to your target and lose a third to half of your force while doing it? The answer - it won't be, unless you are Defender that doesn't use much force for protection. A Defender will have enough force and defense toendure this "crawling" force nerf, Powers and Enhancer based temps won't.

And Phenix, I want to call to your attention your previous statements, my friend. You said if the cloak snare was as bad as the AI snare, you would be against it. I guess you have changed your mind.

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Eskie wrote:

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WookieOgre wrote:

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Eskie wrote:

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Helios_SOE wrote:

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Baciacca wrote:

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sanct_squadleader wrote:
Bac, we need to know if we will be able to channel force while cloaked, if not then they are screwing us over royaly

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Im trying to get a list of what commands that can be used while under cloak.

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So far, the only command we have in the can-use list for the new hiding/stealth sub-system (of which ForceCloak is now a part of) is the Rifleman ConcealShot. Everything else combat-related (including heals) tends to break you out, at the moment.

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Not looking good so far at all.
- A snare prevents you from getting close to your opponents, so no alpha strike there. If you try, your Force will drain a lot.
- Not being able to heal oneself while cloaked will leave cloaked Jedi pretty vulnerable to area attacks.

Most of the changes to cloak are needed - especially the looting / terminal operation / assisting others fixes.
However, the snare to prevent Cloak being used as escape skill will not work because a) it also prevents the alpha-strike capability and b) people will still be able to cloak to escape if they are 20m away from any opponent. The Root / Force Run / Cloak combo will still be the most effective getaway. The snare will not prevent escaping because unlike Avoid Incapacition, Force Cloak makes you invulnerable (except for area attacks) the instant you use it.
Assisting oneself while cloaked should also be allowed - it is not just a "cloak and regen", it is a "cloak and regen while your opponent also regens". Being able to employ hit-and-run attacks is vital for Master Force Wielders since their offense has a lower damage output than a Lightsaber Master, while usually having less defenses than a Lightsaber Master, also (usually Lightsaber is coupled with Force Defense, while Force Wielder is coupled with Force Enhancement to control the higher Force costs of the Force Wielder attacks).

Most of the complaints about Force Cloak stem from the fact that Force Cloak currently is a great "I can control the flow of the fight" skill, and the ones complaining usually have templates that are built to defeat tank-type opponents that just stand there and fight, which involves only marginal investment in crowd control abilities. The people complaining about losing control of a battle due to Force Cloak will complain about losing control of a battle due to Force Stasis next.
Before attaching a snare or prohibit self-assists I strongly encourage you to look into the counters to Force Cloak already present - there are plenty. Otherwise, you are taking a viable template choice and forcing people into one specific template - without Force Cloak, people will need other, "real" defenses and better healing abilities. Most will choose MLS / Enh 3402 / Def 4040 / Heal 4000 or slight variations thereof.

Message Edited by Eskie on 09-21-2005 01:49 PM

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You assume too much. Helios has already stated they will not allow it to be used as an escape tactic. Someone already asked if FR would be a vaild command you can use with Cloak, the answer didn't directly say no, but indirectly read between the lines.....you will not be able to FR/Burst run if you intend to use Cloak.

Just expect the skill to be nerfed to the point you are allowed to do nothing but crawl around like a turtle.

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There is no way the game can see my "intend to cloak" when I hit root / burst run. And after I am 20m away I can cloak and not worry about the snare.

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Hmmm. But I thought cloak was an "alpha-strike" skill?

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Drazharr wrote:

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Eskie wrote:

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WookieOgre wrote:

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Eskie wrote:

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Helios_SOE wrote:

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Baciacca wrote:

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sanct_squadleader wrote:
Bac, we need to know if we will be able to channel force while cloaked, if not then they are screwing us over royaly

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Im trying to get a list of what commands that can be used while under cloak.

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So far, the only command we have in the can-use list for the new hiding/stealth sub-system (of which ForceCloak is now a part of) is the Rifleman ConcealShot. Everything else combat-related (including heals) tends to break you out, at the moment.

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Not looking good so far at all.
- A snare prevents you from getting close to your opponents, so no alpha strike there. If you try, your Force will drain a lot.
- Not being able to heal oneself while cloaked will leave cloaked Jedi pretty vulnerable to area attacks.

Most of the changes to cloak are needed - especially the looting / terminal operation / assisting others fixes.
However, the snare to prevent Cloak being used as escape skill will not work because a) it also prevents the alpha-strike capability and b) people will still be able to cloak to escape if they are 20m away from any opponent. The Root / Force Run / Cloak combo will still be the most effective getaway. The snare will not prevent escaping because unlike Avoid Incapacition, Force Cloak makes you invulnerable (except for area attacks) the instant you use it.
Assisting oneself while cloaked should also be allowed - it is not just a "cloak and regen", it is a "cloak and regen while your opponent also regens". Being able to employ hit-and-run attacks is vital for Master Force Wielders since their offense has a lower damage output than a Lightsaber Master, while usually having less defenses than a Lightsaber Master, also (usually Lightsaber is coupled with Force Defense, while Force Wielder is coupled with Force Enhancement to control the higher Force costs of the Force Wielder attacks).

Most of the complaints about Force Cloak stem from the fact that Force Cloak currently is a great "I can control the flow of the fight" skill, and the ones complaining usually have templates that are built to defeat tank-type opponents that just stand there and fight, which involves only marginal investment in crowd control abilities. The people complaining about losing control of a battle due to Force Cloak will complain about losing control of a battle due to Force Stasis next.
Before attaching a snare or prohibit self-assists I strongly encourage you to look into the counters to Force Cloak already present - there are plenty. Otherwise, you are taking a viable template choice and forcing people into one specific template - without Force Cloak, people will need other, "real" defenses and better healing abilities. Most will choose MLS / Enh 3402 / Def 4040 / Heal 4000 or slight variations thereof.

Message Edited by Eskie on 09-21-2005 01:49 PM

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You assume too much. Helios has already stated they will not allow it to be used as an escape tactic. Someone already asked if FR would be a vaild command you can use with Cloak, the answer didn't directly say no, but indirectly read between the lines.....you will not be able to FR/Burst run if you intend to use Cloak.

Just expect the skill to be nerfed to the point you are allowed to do nothing but crawl around like a turtle.

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There is no way the game can see my "intend to cloak" when I hit root / burst run. And after I am 20m away I can cloak and not worry about the snare.

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Hmmm. But I thought cloak was an "alpha-strike" skill?

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hey baciacca, also what can damage cloakers if someone does an AOE attack you get hit as well, then they look at their combat log see that they hit you and then /follow.

Sorry this might have been said not sure though

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Helios_SOE wrote:

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Baciacca wrote:

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sanct_squadleader wrote:
Bac, we need to know if we will be able to channel force while cloaked, if not then they are screwing us over royaly

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Im trying to get a list of what commandsthat can be usedwhile under cloak.

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So far, the only command we have in the can-use list for the new hiding/stealth sub-system (of which ForceCloak is now a part of) is the Rifleman ConcealShot. Everything else combat-related (including heals) tends to break you out, at the moment.

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Helios_SOE wrote:

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Baciacca wrote:

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sanct_squadleader wrote:
Bac, we need to know if we will be able to channel force while cloaked, if not then they are screwing us over royaly

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Im trying to get a list of what commandsthat can be usedwhile under cloak.

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So far, the only command we have in the can-use list for the new hiding/stealth sub-system (of which ForceCloak is now a part of) is the Rifleman ConcealShot. Everything else combat-related (including heals) tends to break you out, at the moment.

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