Jedi Archive
Thread: Update on Cloak Changes from the Devs
Eme wrote:
i just logged on, stood idling in my house for an hour, thinking ' whats the point in bothering anymore? ' !! , switched to my alt to make someone some paint kits then logged out.
So, let me get this straight, 1 skill that has been rediculously abused, wasn't working the way it should is being altered. So you can't think of anything to do that doesn't involve using this skill? Or you're so depressed that one skill is being altered it has caused you to not want to play the game? Thats hilarious.
UberNinjaOfDoom wrote:
Orange-Lazarus wrote:
who cares about fixing the bugs just nerf cloak its the lamest skill i ever seen in any game
Perfect example of Jedi spirit of community. Its cloak this week Stasis next week. Good going ! Keep it up !! Why don't you tell us how you really feel .
That reminds me of another thing abused... BHs healing their droids (not saying everyone is, but many) so they can attack the target again.
Eme wrote:
>So, let me get this straight, 1 skill that has been rediculously abused, wasn't working the way it should is being altered. So you can't think of anything to do that doesn't involve using this skill? Or you're so depressed that one skill is being altered it has caused you to not want to play the game? Thats hilarious.
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Turd_Ferguson523 wrote:
lunatin wrote:
A rifleman can shot u and stay covered but a jedi using his power to cloud your mind cant do anything what a freakin joke...people start whinning about a power jedi have and your anwser is nerf it what the heck man...Give us a dang break....Jedi are the elite not to be classed with rifleman or rangers...this is just sad...im rally starting to hate this came...
And here is the kind of post that makes most of the rest of the professions hate Jedi.
This statement is one of the most hypocritical things I've ever heard.
And this just shows the typical arrogant elitist attitude that has become associated with this profession because of stupid things said by people like yourself.
Message Edited by Turd_Ferguson523 on 09-21-2005 05:43 AM
Message Edited by Turd_Ferguson523 on 09-21-2005 05:43 AM
Stupid hex codes
Message Edited by Turd_Ferguson523 on 09-21-2005 05:44 AM
Message Edited by Turd_Ferguson523 on 09-21-2005 05:45 AM
QFE
Eme wrote:
The Gank Argument:
-------------------One argument is that players get ganked by someone being healed by 4 cloaked jedi.
There is NO DIFFERENCE between being ganked by someone being healed by 4 cloakers, than being ganked full on by 5 uncloaked. The only difference is that you only have one person hammering on you instead of 5.
The battle is STILL 5v1 no matter if you can still see the others or not.
In fact you are more likely to last longer being hammered on by one jedi being healed by 4 cloakers than you would by 5 jedi.And another thing to bear in mind, both sides can do this, the dangers of uncloaking and trying to gank someone MAY result in getting ganked yourself by others trying the same thing.
This is fair on both sides.
The Heal and Channel Self Argument:
-----------------------------------When you cloak, you are NOT the only person that can heal themselves or channel, the other player CAN DO IT TOO .
To remove this ability while cloaked will UNBALANCE healing and channel chances, rendering it pointless to use on a MDEf, as the hole you are already in when fighting a MDEF will just get deeper.This will create a generic FOTMWTF template to be able to survive.
Snare:
----------------
Have you ever been chased by a decent BH, they can stay on your tail pretty darn well using their droids,
with snare they will be on top of you the whole time, rendering cloak worthless.
If you gget a BH after you and you cloak off, it doesnt 'end' the battle, the BH is STILL after you most of the time, and if you want to carry on playing you will have to face the BH anyway.Now with added snare BH will run AWAY from us so that we cant catch them up and first-strike them back, while jedi will actually RUN away because they cant heal or channel to prepare for that first strike in return.
This will in fact create LESS combat between jedi vs BH.
First Strike:
---------------
How can it be first strike when you wont be able to catch up to anything to first strike them ?
JTL Travel Terminals:
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If i cant walk cloaked onto my own ship to travel to somewhere pre cloaked, whats the point in having cloak to sneak about ?
Shuttling is fine that you can not use cloaked but JTL terminals are different and is part of the reason a lot of players got cloak in the first place.
Healing OTHERS:
----------------
healing others while cloaked is great fun and ADDS to the group experience.
You are basically taken out of fights, as you become the support-role character in the group.
Removing heal others will remove the 'support-role' that a powers user currently plays.Its not that easy to run someone thru a hard dungeon while cloaked and healing them ( of which you can only do one at a time generally ) , it can be quite a challenge in itself, and 'FUN', and ADDS to the depth and nuances to the game.
Remove the nuances and depth to the game, you are effectively removing content.
It will also create a worthless character in your group when they could still be playing.Lootboxes:
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altho i feel its fine that a cloaker should be able to use lootboxes while cloaked, it wont be gamebreaking if we cannot in future, where as other issues i feel will be game breaking for me.
RESPEC:
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If these changes go thru, a respec HAS to be on the cards, you can NOT expect players to regrind whole templates as they have to rethink their entire gameplay.I for one DO NOT WANT TO USE A RESPEC, as I only ever wanted to go powers and DO NOT LIKE FEELING FORCED into a template i DO NOT WANT TO PLAY just to be viable. I would rather NOT play.
If you do NOT give a respec, it is a sign of SOE being increadably RUDE to players, you may as well be punching them in the face and expecting them to say thank you for it.
I cannot stress enough how these nerfs will ruin the experience on the whole for me, and ive put up with a whole load of nearly quitting nerfs and changes since this game started,and ive sat them out with hope, but these proposed changes feel as though they come from someone that hasnt played the game at all as a powers jedi, and i do not know how much longer i will be able to be 'bothered' with it all./sarcasm on
Thank you Helios , you are destroying the game i loved so dear, please punch me in the face again, i love the lack of depth and content nerfing you are bringing with you, and i need to be forced into the generic template clone jedi setup, just to be viable, as the fun template i wanted just isn't bad enough for you already, or maybe i should drop jedi and go ranger instead ?Message Edited by Eme on 09-21-2005 03:22 AM
When, after pub 9, they nerfed FOTM Menhancers they didn't give any respec ability whatosoever and that was a MASTER SKILL nerf, not a single column, so be serious and grind your 3mil exp (which takes not more than 2 days + the engative u have)
Helios_SOE wrote:
So far, the only command we have in the can-use list for the new hiding/stealth sub-system (of which ForceCloak is now a part of) is the Rifleman ConcealShot. Everything else combat-related (including heals) tends to break you out, at the moment.
Baciacca wrote:
Im trying to get a list of what commands that can be used while under cloak.
sanct_squadleader wrote:
Bac, we need to know if we will be able to channel force while cloaked, if not then they are screwing us over royaly
Not looking good so far at all.
- A snare prevents you from getting close to your opponents, so no alpha strike there. If you try, your Force will drain a lot.
- Not being able to heal oneself while cloaked will leave cloaked Jedi pretty vulnerable to area attacks.
Most of the changes to cloak are needed - especially the looting / terminal operation / assisting others fixes.
However, the snare to prevent Cloak being used as escape skill will not work because a) it also prevents the alpha-strike capability and b) people will still be able to cloak to escape if they are 20m away from any opponent. The Root / Force Run / Cloak combo will still be the most effective getaway. The snare will not prevent escaping because unlike Avoid Incapacition, Force Cloak makes you invulnerable (except for area attacks) the instant you use it.
Assisting oneself while cloaked should also be allowed - it is not just a "cloak and regen", it is a "cloak and regen while your opponent also regens". Being able to employ hit-and-run attacks is vital for Master Force Wielders since their offense has a lower damage output than a Lightsaber Master, while usually having less defenses than a Lightsaber Master, also (usually Lightsaber is coupled with Force Defense, while Force Wielder is coupled with Force Enhancement to control the higher Force costs of the Force Wielder attacks).
Most of the complaints about Force Cloak stem from the fact that Force Cloak currently is a great "I can control the flow of the fight" skill, and the ones complaining usually have templates that are built to defeat tank-type opponents that just stand there and fight, which involves only marginal investment in crowd control abilities. The people complaining about losing control of a battle due to Force Cloak will complain about losing control of a battle due to Force Stasis next.
Before attaching a snare or prohibit self-assists I strongly encourage you to look into the counters to Force Cloak already present - there are plenty. Otherwise, you are taking a viable template choice and forcing people into one specific template - without Force Cloak, people will need other, "real" defenses and better healing abilities. Most will choose MLS / Enh 3402 / Def 4040 / Heal 4000 or slight variations thereof.
Message Edited by Eskie on 09-21-2005 01:49 PM
rYsyn wrote:
lunatin wrote:
A rifleman can shot u and stay covered but a jedi using his power to cloud your mind cant do anything what a freakin joke...people start whinning about a power jedi have and your anwser is nerf it what the heck man...Give us a dang break....Jedi are the elite not to be classed with rifleman or rangers ...this is just sad...im rally starting to hate this came...
What's a joke is the free ticket you want for yourself. Rifleman can have thier cover broken, Jedi cannot. If you are willing to have your cloak broken when peopke get within 20m then there would be no problem. But as usual, you want to be 100% unattackable and use all your Uberness.
Actually it's a matter of balance. Why would Jedi have their Cloak broken if they have to be within melee range to attack? Powers is a support profession, so don't expect any viable first strike from using the the wet noodle lightning attack. That's why Rifleman can be broken when people get close to them, they can fire from a 65m range (up to 80m) without even breaking cloak or they can fire the most devestating attack in the game (sniper).
If we are going to be the equivalent of a Ranger using their cloak, by all means they need to drop the entire Force Cost because that is obviously unbalanced for Jedi to use all their force just to get in range when a Ranger has no Forcebar to worry about.
Eskie wrote:
Helios_SOE wrote:
So far, the only command we have in the can-use list for the new hiding/stealth sub-system (of which ForceCloak is now a part of) is the Rifleman ConcealShot. Everything else combat-related (including heals) tends to break you out, at the moment.
Baciacca wrote:
Im trying to get a list of what commands that can be used while under cloak.
sanct_squadleader wrote:
Bac, we need to know if we will be able to channel force while cloaked, if not then they are screwing us over royaly
Not looking good so far at all.
- A snare prevents you from getting close to your opponents, so no alpha strike there. If you try, your Force will drain a lot.
- Not being able to heal oneself while cloaked will leave cloaked Jedi pretty vulnerable to area attacks.
Most of the changes to cloak are needed - especially the looting / terminal operation / assisting others fixes.
However, the snare to prevent Cloak being used as escape skill will not work because a) it also prevents the alpha-strike capability and b) people will still be able to cloak to escape if they are 20m away from any opponent. The Root / Force Run / Cloak combo will still be the most effective getaway. The snare will not prevent escaping because unlike Avoid Incapacition, Force Cloak makes you invulnerable (except for area attacks) the instant you use it.
Assisting oneself while cloaked should also be allowed - it is not just a "cloak and regen", it is a "cloak and regen while your opponent also regens". Being able to employ hit-and-run attacks is vital for Master Force Wielders since their offense has a lower damage output than a Lightsaber Master, while usually having less defenses than a Lightsaber Master, also (usually Lightsaber is coupled with Force Defense, while Force Wielder is coupled with Force Enhancement to control the higher Force costs of the Force Wielder attacks).
Most of the complaints about Force Cloak stem from the fact that Force Cloak currently is a great "I can control the flow of the fight" skill, and the ones complaining usually have templates that are built to defeat tank-type opponents that just stand there and fight, which involves only marginal investment in crowd control abilities. The people complaining about losing control of a battle due to Force Cloak will complain about losing control of a battle due to Force Stasis next.
Before attaching a snare or prohibit self-assists I strongly encourage you to look into the counters to Force Cloak already present - there are plenty. Otherwise, you are taking a viable template choice and forcing people into one specific template - without Force Cloak, people will need other, "real" defenses and better healing abilities. Most will choose MLS / Enh 3402 / Def 4040 / Heal 4000 or slight variations thereof.
Message Edited by Eskie on 09-21-2005 01:49 PM
You assume too much. Helios has already stated they will not allow it to be used as an escape tactic. Someone already asked if FR would be a vaild command you can use with Cloak, the answer didn't directly say no, but indirectly read between the lines.....you will not be able to FR/Burst run if you intend to use Cloak.
Just expect the skill to be nerfed to the point you are allowed to do nothing but crawl around like a turtle.
Orange-Lazarus wrote:
UberNinjaOfDoom wrote:
Orange-Lazarus wrote:
who cares about fixing the bugs just nerf cloak its the lamest skill i ever seen in any game
Perfect example of Jedi spirit of community. Its cloak this week Stasis next week. Good going ! Keep it up !! Why don't you tell us how you really feel .
hmmm yes even tho stasis dont work 50% of the time lol
So when it gets nerfed can we actually come back and tell you it's the lamest skill in the game, it deserved to be nerfed?
Once again, Nerf everyone except youuntil your skills are under thenerf rifle .
There is a World of difference imo between escaping a fight you don't want to participate in from the outset, and toggling Cloak off and on at whim to stop the other person attacking you at all (e.g. Uncloak/Statis/Cloak gank squads)