Jedi Archive

ok ill add in sayimp head hit (1.9 modifier - same as adv saber throw infact and thesame timer)on a 75% ab slice armour.

effectively that reduces the EXTRA damage done by 3/4 shouild be simple enough to adjust

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MasterSheep wrote:

firstly my background - im a weaponsmith who has recently unlocked jedi. as such i have a detailed understanding of how the weapons in this game work.

Im amazed at the number of comments i see on these boards along the line of..

""SABERS ARE RUBBISH _ A REGULASR RUN OF THE MILL JEDI CAN GET ABOUT 400-500 MAX DAMAGE ON THERE SABER WHERE AS ANY OLD WEAPONSMITH CAN MAKE ME A 1160 MAX DAM LASER RIFLE!!! - OMG SABERS ARE SUCH RUBBISH WEAPONS!!!!!!!"

the caps are included to emphasise how these posts are often written

let me explain something that most players miss about sabers and why even an average 400-500 damage saber is still a terrifically good and ballanced weapon in this game.

lets compare 2 weapons

saber

400-500 damage

elemental heat - 125 (no banes crystal)

Gorax featherweight fwg5 kinetic weapon

384-966 (damage capped)

no elemental

i am aware that a pistol can be puped - however most will use a sac capped weapon - the stats on that pistol are one of the best pistol stats you can get and we are comparing it to a run of the mill saber

ok now the thing to remember is this - in low end pvp (farming the aacunan caves - killing cl4 womp rats etc) the weapons MAX damage comes into play. The difference between the weapons max and min is difided by 30 and depending on the CL difference between you and your target the weapon does an appropriate damage. eg 10 CL less than you it does max dam - 20 more than you it does min damage.

NOTE elemental damage is NOT effected by this - another + to the saber

WIth adv critical shot the PISTOL will hit a CL 70 for 1055 and a CL 100 for 420 - a huge range.

With improved saber powerattack the saber will hit a CL70 for 653 and a CL 100 for 534 - a tight range

NOTE the average saber does more damage vs high level targets than even the most enhnaced a pistol can get!!

ok PvP

first thing to note all weapon damages except elemental gets cut by .7 for pvp calculations - another + for a saber with its high elemental (also another + for commando weapons in PvP - but thats another story)

for PvP the weapons base damage is based on your acc vs the targets defences

if acc is 750 over defence you hit for the max

if acc is 750 less than defence you hit for the min

first test subject - master DEF jedi running im Aura - not AB

Pistol will hit for 317

Saber will hit for 325

(again using power attack and crit shot)

almost identical - that is in high end PvP a mediocre saber is pretty much equivelent to the very best pistols on the market...

vs a low defence opponent however..

eg a carbineer with 6000 resist battle armour and 4500 elemental..

pistol hits for 480

saber hits for 488

so even vs a weaker target the saber still holds its own

CONCLUSIONS

Max dam is a poor guide to high end PvP damage

Min damage is a much better guide

Elemental damage is vital for a good pvp weapon - sabers have alot of it

Sabers are remarkably well balanced - an average saber is just as good in high end PvP as the best a pistol can possible - simular stuff applies when you look at rifles and carbs - they hit slightly harder however fire slower

SABERS are NOT underpowered as weapons. they are desinged for high end PvE/PvP rather than low end grey con mob killing though - vs a CL90+ opponent even an average saber is by far the best choice.

A'ru

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Message Edited by Obeewana_Doobie on 09-01-200512:35 AM

Message Edited by Obeewana_Doobie on 09-01-2005 12:35 AM

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MasterSheep wrote:

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Miqmac wrote:

I was gonna start this with... No offense but.. Instead Im just gonna say straight out that offense is intended in this case. so what you are saying is that a saber can hold its own against a pistol. First of all I can create a new character on any server and in 2 days be qualified for any pistol out there. never mind that it took me 18 months of grinding to "unlock" and then 3 weeks of grinding to get an even half decent saber.

My saber should be able to slice any pistol weilding crybaby bh in half in uder a minute.

I wouldnt mind the damage at al if they reverted it to "saber" damage.

pathetic that the saber and pistol are even comparable never mind that its a close comparison. how about a proton rifle that anyone can acquire.

I realy would be happy if they created a whole new set of servers just for jedi. Gave us our power back and then allowed people to transfer to those servers only after accepting a disclaimer stating that jedi on this server are 10times as strong as any other elite or hybrid profession in the game and this is AS INTENDED by Mr. Lucas himself.

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not gonna disagree with you - all ive done here is present the numbers - didnt say anything about whether this was what the game should be like. all ive done is present the truth from ingame

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Yes you've presented some numbers and an interesting theory, but in practise that is not what people are seeing.

As one poster very intelligentlypointed outby showing that you arestating that 5 > 6. In other words, since your mathmatical analysis skills are not as sharp as you would lead people tothink, your are quite poorlyattempting to compare apples and oranges. You're argumentis fundamentally flawed from the start and your analysis is quite poor.

If you want to compare damage, then you need to compare the damage onskills that have the same modifiers. same warmup, same cooldown, same multiplier, same accuracy vs same defense,same attackspeed, same cooldown, same factor in every single variable down the entire line, save one thing damage.

All other modifiers must be equal aside from min damage, max damage,and the elemental damage modification on the weapons you are comparing.SOE does adecent approximation of this with the equations they use to determine DPS. Only when all other factors are equalcan you make a true comparison on how effective saber damage is compared to another weapon, because there are too many other factors clouding and polluting your results.

If you were one of my math students, you would be taking my class again, because you have missed the point.

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Phaelyn wrote:

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rodav wrote:

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Phaelyn wrote:

YOUR saber is better. MINE isn't. 397 DPS, and I consider myself LUCKY to have the highest DPS of all teh Jedi I know and group with. This Saber is a product of non-ending looting for crystals and pearls, and tuning - So please don't pull the "lazy" comment.

Sabers are great when they are close to perfect. Too bad many of us don't HAVE Perfect.

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Too many of you got full template with less than a week grind using multiple respecs. Pre-respec full template Jedi lost their rank (well was rank 0 because of what i think was a stupid frs) and spent a lot more efforts to reach that stage. Having a better saber is a minimum to make it even.

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Oh give me a break. I've been playing since December '03. *I* Unlocked the day before the CU hit (Despite 2 free Holo unlocks& I never touched a Grenade). *I* am still not full template, DESPITE the temptations of Kashyyyk and Respec build-up (I believe one should LEARN their profession instead of trying to get there the fastest). *I* have stood and fought every BH who has come after me, and not run away crying (Sure, i had to build XP back up- So what?).

Judging by the date on your account, I'll assume we started at roughly the same time. So, we've probably played ROUGHLY the same amount of game hours. So, what makes your Jedi any better than mine? Just because you rushed to get Jedi?

All I am asking is that we have the POTENTIAL to get the same power those that came before us enjoy. Why is that so much to ask?

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I play since europe day 0, by the way it's not the point (don't judge people playing date by their board subscription). I got knight in first days of January 2005 after 3 or 4 months being padawan. If I had rushed to be Jedi I wouldn't have been Master ID/Carabineer the first 5 months of the game without trying to grind any holo with my friends. But it's not the point too...

The point is that players pre-pub9 Jedi and pre-respec Jedi spent A LOT more efforts into their Jedi to reach their level than respec one did. And it's not because you didn't leveled up with respec exploit that everyone did the same. In fact 90% of postCU Jedi did this "under a week full template with multi respecs" thing. Even master BH is more hard to level up than this lol. So, those early Jedi are worth a little bonus (more than being able to wear Jedi Knight - or Guardian/Master exploited - title) which is having a better saber today.

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Miqmac wrote:

I was gonna start this with... No offense but.. Instead Im just gonna say straight out that offense is intended in this case. so what you are saying is that a saber can hold its own against a pistol. First of all I can create a new character on any server and in 2 days be qualified for any pistol out there. never mind that it took me 18 months of grinding to "unlock" and then 3 weeks of grinding to get an even half decent saber.

My saber should be able to slice any pistol weilding crybaby bh in half in uder a minute.

I wouldnt mind the damage at al if they reverted it to "saber" damage.

pathetic that the saber and pistol are even comparable never mind that its a close comparison. how about a proton rifle that anyone can acquire.

I realy would be happy if they created a whole new set of servers just for jedi. Gave us our power back and then allowed people to transfer to those servers only after accepting a disclaimer stating that jedi on this server are 10times as strong as any other elite or hybrid profession in the game and this is AS INTENDED by Mr. Lucas himself.

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This is just to response with the thread creator.

So the guy holding the kinetic gun is a BH with MCM and you are a Jedi.

The guy keeps healing himself while you try to take him out. sadly your force runsout cause your saber actually sucks as far as force and then you die.

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-HadesBabe- wrote:
I have a master pistols/master smuggler with a damage sliced Trando pistol that can outdamage a MLS. Know how you can tell? When you pull the agro of the mob from the Jedi to you. This happens regularly. So I find it hard to believe that the avereage sabre is better than an easily gained loot weapon.

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you are entirely correct in that vs a cl82 or less mob a regular weapon can comp[letely outclass even the very best saber. the point i tried to make was that in PvP vs a heavily defended target a saber is usually the best weapon and vs high end PvE content (cl90+) a saber is almost allways the best weapon.

Not denying the issues with healing templates speed armour slices etc - all i tried to do here was show that "max dam" is not a good guide to a weapons capability when you go vs high end stuff

So you're saying that all the new Jedi should accept having a gimped sabre in PvE and PvP because a relative few have a really good sabre that allows them parity with the other elites in terms of weaponry? That's bullsh!t and you know it. I got my Trando pistol far far more easily than even the crappy crystals that I use in my PoS grinder sabre.

Right now, a skilled MBH/MCM can fully negate any damage the average fully templated Jedi can deal out simply because most Jedi do not have a stack of four 120/120 -9fc pearls in their sabre. The best I have is 96/96 -8fc and the rest are at and below 76/76 -7fc. The BH's have been steadily gaining in power as Jedi have been losing power. As it stands, I would much rather be a pre-pub 9 Jedi than a post pub 23 Jedi. I'd rather get my azz kicked by a BH and own at PvE solo (pre-pub 9)than be a Jedi who gets his azz kicked by a BH and by most PvE mobs (post pub 23).A great dealof this is simply due to pizz-poor sabre damage output.