Jedi Archive
Thread: Update on Cloak Changes from the Devs
Elitesolider wrote:
I think the same rule shouldapply for that Rifleman Cover. Why place that rule on Jedi Cloaking when MRM won't lose their cover when somebody heals them, or stands near them, or they heal themselves. If your going to stay cloaked whether your a Jedi or RM, the point is to stay hidden and retaliate by surprising your victims with a barrage of attacks. Like the little unsuspectingsnake that comes out of a hole in the ground and gets eaten by the bigger King Cobrasnake hiding somewhere near by. It's all about the element of surprise, and using that advantage in favor of your survival.
The SWG Devs should stop favoring one profession, and stopmaking themore lovedprofession gain from the less-loving professions lossbecause it makesthe Devslook like a bunch of profession-favoring hogs. First they favored the BHs, than they favored Jedis, now they Favored Squad Leaders--who's next???? Favoring only one of two professions is wrong. On the other hand, favoring two professions out of two is much better. Nerf for the better of the game. Don't nerf because your a hater and you want to make a profession weaker than all the others.
how about no more nerfs to anyone and an increase in effectiveness and power where its needed. the game has been nerfed so much a 2 year old would be hard pressed to hurt themelves.
Helios_SOE wrote:
So far, the only command we have in the can-use list for the new hiding/stealth sub-system (of which ForceCloak is now a part of) is the Rifleman ConcealShot. Everything else combat-related (including heals) tends to break you out, at the moment.
Baciacca wrote:
Im trying to get a list of what commandsthat can be usedwhile under cloak.
sanct_squadleader wrote:
Bac, we need to know if we will be able to channel force while cloaked, if not then they are screwing us over royaly
Helios with all due respect have you ever used cloak ingame?
I can understand that it is not being used as the devs origionally intended "alpha strike" however no where can I see this ever posted untilthe last few days.
The skill sits in the trees of powers and they dont even have the ability to alpha strike a durni. Choke is negated by defender, or anyone with CM 4000, lightening has zip bars making them unuseable in the field of battle as sitting still isnt a good idea EVER.
The LOS stuff has to be used to survive which cannot be used with the other powers skills unless all you do is fire off area intim or area kd and thats a real good idea near mobs these days as you have no defence to take the onslaught it brings.
Currently those with cloak sacrifice 28 skill point to get this one skill that is useful and thats a LOT of jedi SP's to be using up.
Already we have a limitednumber of templates which are viable unless you want to get get riddledfull of holes and this will reduce it even more.
It seems we have a few issues with cloak currently
1) Looting in the DWB
2) Drawing Mobsaway from bases or just in general
Why can you not simply FIX these 2 issues instead of ruining what has to be the single most enjoyable and fun skill going in the game. Instead it just seems that you are going to reduce coding effort by making all 3 of the skills the same.
As for complaints from other professions about it being used for escape I would have the following to say.
They can still do the following
/follow <name>
/infect <name>
/insert any CM skill here <name>
As said by the great man himself "there are alternatives to fighting" and you are removing one of them with what alternative? Get force run 2 and the damage reduction as you seem unable to code to give access to the lower versions of the skills FR1 for example. Get 444 in defender? The idea of using all those skill points just so I dont get battered are not exactly appealing.
Most of the peeps who made numerious posts about people cloaking up and going into the dwb seem to not realise that in order to get to a coal bin for loot you have to get past a key spawn where you have to get the access key which YOU CANNOT DO ALONE. Only then can you access a bin. The issue with the dwb is people going down in a group then leaving the group in order to cloak up in the second key spawn room in the corner to then camp the 2 bins which you could simply solve by making interaction with the bins uncloak you - its that simple.
The issue with the drawing of mobs can simply be solved by you not getting aggro in the first place which in theory should never happen anyway.
All you had to do then was fix the ability to heal others while cloaked and the problem where the first time you log in if you logged out cloaked you can attack while still cloaked. Oh and the starship terminal thing... you cannot use a shuttle terminal while cloaked so surely you can code the starship terms the same if you really wanted to.
Fact of the matter is you dont isnt it and instead of fixing the issues you are jsut gonna smack us inthe face with the nerf bat as its easier for you and jsut replace the cloak code with the new code you are writing.
Many of the population have to be able to escape the MBH/MR/CM4000 and the MBH/MR/CM0400 as they are able to heal droids from dead with bacta spray (go figure) as well as healing themselves and can heal more damage than most non pre 9 jedi can dish out due to the poor sabers most of these peeps are carrying about.
Why do you seem intent on making us stand and fight as the only option? If this is the case please spead out the defender bonuses to the other jedi professions as well. Or I tell you what you could actually make states do something, now there is a novel idea.
Failing that can I have 10million exp for free as well as everyone else because everyone with 0400 powers will drop it and change it for 4440 defender instead of the 0040 defender thay already have. Run the astro stats and you will see how many people you are effecting with these changes and I will give you $1 for every post after these changes that ask for a snare or root to be added to stasis as it unfair and allow the jedi to escape.
/rant off and think I went on a bit of a tangent there once or twice but in summary please FIX the issues we have with cloak not NERF it, alpha strike, dont make me laugh. Play the game a bit and you will see exactly what we mean.
Helios_SOE wrote:
So far, the only command we have in the can-use list for the new hiding/stealth sub-system (of which ForceCloak is now a part of) is the Rifleman ConcealShot. Everything else combat-related (including heals) tends to break you out, at the moment.
Baciacca wrote:
Im trying to get a list of what commandsthat can be usedwhile under cloak.
sanct_squadleader wrote:
Bac, we need to know if we will be able to channel force while cloaked, if not then they are screwing us over royaly
/support
In the way it worked cloak was a very stupid thing.
So how hard would it have been to just move Cloak to the master box? And why are they trying to make all professionabilities the same? What's the fun in that? A bit of variety adds spice.
Linna
Choke? 150 dmg a tick at best against any reasonable defence Jedi.
Lightning? Negligible damage against any reasonable defence Jedi.
Breach? Assuming it even hits it has a low roll to remove zero or more buffs which can be instantly reapplied.
Tell me - what is MPowers Alpha Strike?
Should Cloak even be in the Powers tree at all? From the sounds of the intended changes to Cloak maybe it would be better off in Defender or Lightsabre, since those are the ONLY people who are actually going to benefit from it.
Helios_SOE wrote:
So far, the only command we have in the can-use list for the new hiding/stealth sub-system (of which ForceCloak is now a part of) is the Rifleman ConcealShot. Everything else combat-related (including heals) tends to break you out, at the moment.
Baciacca wrote:
Im trying to get a list of what commandsthat can be usedwhile under cloak.
sanct_squadleader wrote:
Bac, we need to know if we will be able to channel force while cloaked, if not then they are screwing us over royaly
Durzel wrote:
Master Powers has NO alpha strike skill.
Choke? 150 dmg a tick at best against any reasonable defence Jedi.
Lightning? Negligible damage against any reasonable defence Jedi.
Breach? Assuming it even hits it has a low roll to remove zero or more buffs which can be instantly reapplied.
Tell me - what is MPowers Alpha Strike?
Phenix1050 wrote:
Durzel wrote:
Master Powers has NO alpha strike skill.
Choke? 150 dmg a tick at best against any reasonable defence Jedi.
Lightning? Negligible damage against any reasonable defence Jedi.
Breach? Assuming it even hits it has a low roll to remove zero or more buffs which can be instantly reapplied.
Tell me - what is MPowers Alpha Strike?
Alpha, in this context, means FIRST, not BEST. Any of the attacks you listed would be considered an "alpha strike", considering that if you're cloaked, you get to choose when to attack. If you open up with choke, then choke was your alpha strike. Bounty Hunters, for example, have "alpha strike" capability, but that doesn't translate into a single attack theymust used to open up conflict with. It's the general concept of being able to determine when to fight. Rangers and Jedi will be able to do this-- if they're stealthed, they choose when to engage an enemy. But that doesn't mean they need a specific attack with is better while stealthed.
Be serious.
Being able to hitsomeone with a feather duster first before they critical shot you IS NOT any kind of advantage what so ever.
Do not compare BH to Jedi, its not apples with apples.
Abe-larek wrote:
Phenix1050 wrote:
Durzel wrote:
Master Powers has NO alpha strike skill.
Choke? 150 dmg a tick at best against any reasonable defence Jedi.
Lightning? Negligible damage against any reasonable defence Jedi.
Breach? Assuming it even hits it has a low roll to remove zero or more buffs which can be instantly reapplied.
Tell me - what is MPowers Alpha Strike?
Alpha, in this context, means FIRST, not BEST. Any of the attacks you listed would be considered an "alpha strike", considering that if you're cloaked, you get to choose when to attack. If you open up with choke, then choke was your alpha strike. Bounty Hunters, for example, have "alpha strike" capability, but that doesn't translate into a single attack theymust used to open up conflict with. It's the general concept of being able to determine when to fight. Rangers and Jedi will be able to do this-- if they're stealthed, they choose when to engage an enemy. But that doesn't mean they need a specific attack with is better while stealthed.
Be serious.
Being able to hitsomeone with a feather duster first before they critical shot you IS NOT any kind of advantage what so ever.
Do not compare BH to Jedi, its not apples with apples.
...Especially with a snare
The Gank Argument:
-------------------
One argument is that players get ganked by someone being healed by 4 cloaked jedi.
There is NO DIFFERENCE between being ganked by someone being healed by 4 cloakers, than being ganked full on by 5 uncloaked. The only difference is that you only have one person hammering on you instead of 5.
The battle is STILL 5v1 no matter if you can still see the others or not.
In fact you are more likely to last longer being hammered on by one jedi being healed by 4 cloakers than you would by 5 jedi.
And another thing to bear in mind, both sides can do this, the dangers of uncloaking and trying to gank someone MAY result in getting ganked yourself by others trying the same thing.
This is fair on both sides.
The Heal and Channel Self Argument:
-----------------------------------
When you cloak, you are NOT the only person that can heal themselves or channel, the other player CAN DO IT TOO .
To remove this ability while cloaked will UNBALANCE healing and channel chances, rendering it pointless to use on a MDEf, as the hole you are already in when fighting a MDEF will just get deeper.
Thiswill create a generic FOTMWTF template to be able to survive.
Snare:
----------------
Have you ever been chased by a decent BH, they can stay on your tail pretty darn well using their droids,
with snare they will be on top of you the whole time, rendering cloak worthless.
If you gget a BH after you and you cloak off, it doesnt 'end' the battle, the BH is STILL after you most of the time, and if you want to carry on playing you will have to face the BH anyway.
Now with added snare BH will run AWAY from us so that we cant catch them up and first-strike them back, while jedi will actually RUN away because they cant heal or channel to prepare for that first strike in return.
This will in fact create LESS combat between jedi vs BH.
First Strike:
---------------
How can it be first strike when you wont be able to catch up to anything to first strike them ?
JTL Travel Terminals:
---------------------
If i cant walk cloaked onto my own ship to travel to somewhere pre cloaked, whats the point in having cloak to sneak about ?
Shuttling is fine that you can not use cloaked but JTL terminals are different and is part of the reason a lot of players got cloak in the first place.
Healing OTHERS:
----------------
healing others while cloaked is great fun and ADDS to the group experience.
You are basically taken out of fights, as you become the support-role character in the group.
Removing heal others will remove the 'support-role' that a powers user currently plays.
Its not that easy to run someone thru a hard dungeon while cloaked and healing them ( of which you can only do one at a time generally ) , it can be quite a challenge in itself, and 'FUN', and ADDS to the depth and nuances to the game.
Remove the nuances and depth to the game, you are effectively removing content.
It will also create a worthless character in your group when they could still be playing.
Lootboxes:
-----------
altho i feel its fine that a cloaker should be able to use lootboxes while cloaked, it wont be gamebreaking if we cannot in future, where as other issues i feel will be game breaking for me.
RESPEC:
--------
If these changes go thru, a respec HAS to be on the cards, you can NOT expect players to regrind whole templates as they have to rethink their entire gameplay.
I for one DO NOT WANT TO USE A RESPEC, as I only ever wanted to go powers and DO NOT LIKE FEELING FORCED into a template i DO NOT WANT TO PLAY just to be viable. I would rather NOT play.
If you do NOT give a respec, it is a sign of SOE being increadably RUDE to players, you may as well be punching them in the face and expecting them to say thank you for it.
I cannot stress enough how these nerfs will ruin the experience on the whole for me, and ive put up with a whole load of nearly quitting nerfs and changes since this game started,and ive sat them out with hope, but these proposed changes feel as though they come from someone that hasnt played the game at all as a powers jedi, and i do not know how much longer i will be able to be 'bothered' with it all.
/sarcasm on
Thank you Helios , you are destroying the game i loved so dear, please punch me in the face again, i love the lack of depth and content nerfing you are bringing with you, and i need to be forced into the generic template clone jedi setup, just to be viable, as the fun template i wanted just isn't bad enough for you already, or maybe i should drop jedi and go ranger instead ?
Message Edited by Eme on 09-21-2005 03:22 AM
lunatin wrote:
A rifleman can shot u and stay covered but a jedi using his power to cloud your mind cant do anything what a freakin joke...people start whinning about a power jedi have and your anwser is nerf it what the heck man...Give us a dang break....Jedi are the elite not to be classed with rifleman or rangers ...this is just sad...im rally starting to hate this came...
What's a joke is the free ticket you want for yourself. Rifleman can have thier cover broken, Jedi cannot. If you are willing to have your cloak broken when peopke get within 20m then there would be no problem. But as usual, you want to be 100% unattackable and use all your Uberness.
Phenix1050 wrote:
Durzel wrote:
Master Powers has NO alpha strike skill.
Choke? 150 dmg a tick at best against any reasonable defence Jedi.
Lightning? Negligible damage against any reasonable defence Jedi.
Breach? Assuming it even hits it has a low roll to remove zero or more buffs which can be instantly reapplied.
Tell me - what is MPowers Alpha Strike?
Alpha, in this context, means FIRST, not BEST. Any of the attacks you listed would be considered an "alpha strike", considering that if you're cloaked, you get to choose when to attack. If you open up with choke, then choke was your alpha strike. Bounty Hunters, for example, have "alpha strike" capability, but that doesn't translate into a single attack they must used to open up conflict with. It's the general concept of being able to determine when to fight. Rangers and Jedi will be able to do this-- if they're stealthed, they choose when to engage an enemy. But that doesn't mean they need a specific attack with is better while stealthed.
Ok, we're arguing over semantics. You are of course right about the term "Alpha Strike".
My point really was that Master Powers has nothing that actually benefits the class in having an Alpha Strike. Say I open up with Choke, or Lightning - what then? Neither move is going to put even the slightest dent in a MDef, or someone with Feedback/Shield, etc.
I've been Alpha Striked by a MLS cloaker before, and I was cut to shreds in seconds. Those are the only people who are going to benefit (well, nothing is going to change for them really) from this. If Cloak is meant as an Alpha Strike move then there is zero point in it even being in the Master Powers tree, when our DPS is so poor and all of our attacks are mitigated by 99% of Jedi out there.
lunatin wrote:
A rifleman can shot u and stay covered but a jedi using his power to cloud your mind cant do anything what a freakin joke...people start whinning about a power jedi have and your anwser is nerf it what the heck man...Give us a dang break....Jedi are the elite not to be classed with rifleman or rangers...this is just sad...im rally starting to hate this came...
And here is the kind of post that makes most of the rest of the professions hate Jedi.
This statement is one of the most hypocritical things I've ever heard.
And this just shows the typical arrogant elitist attitude that has become associated with this profession because of stupid things said by people like yourself.
Message Edited by Turd_Ferguson523 on 09-21-2005 05:43 AM
Message Edited by Turd_Ferguson523 on 09-21-2005 05:43 AM
Stupid hex codes 
Message Edited by Turd_Ferguson523 on 09-21-2005 05:44 AM
Message Edited by Turd_Ferguson523 on 09-21-2005 05:45 AM