Jedi Archive
Thread: the thing that most people dont understand about saber damage....
RemoMoxey
Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:53 pm
#66
MasterSheep wrote:
the point of my post is to show that sabers (completely ignoring speed buffs/debuffs - and armourbreak both the + and - of using a saber) are actually well balanced (showed that with a 500-400 saber) and a 700-600 saber with 200 elemental is significantly better than anyother weapon. the solution isnt to powerup sabers to make them unbalanced the solution is for jedi to realise the battels they cant win and run.
Message Edited by MasterSheep on 08-31-2005 09:45 PM
You can't completely ignore these factors.........lol. I've never seen ANYONE not use speed buffs/debuffs or armorbreak if they are availible to the character.
MasterSheep
Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:56 pm
#67
Xalya_Shadowalker wrote:
I think you do have a point about why sabers as a whole aren't bad, despite the mins, lest you think I'm bashing you too much. You also do have to remember however, that while they both may be biggest damage specials, Power Attack has a windup which Crit Shot does not (and actually, I think Torso Shot has a higher modifer than Crit Shot). Nor is Power Attack a spammable attack like Crit Shot is, it was a bad choice for the same reason you wouldnt want to compare Saber Body Attack to Sniper Shot.
MasterSheep wrote:
Xalya_Shadowalker wrote:
I messed around with the calculator and didnt see anything that hinted the simplified formula i used didn't work just as well.
Do the same tests, with saber throw instead of power attack, and you will see the errors of your initial tests.
no probs ill do them this evening - ive not got the time atm - ill probably do a tabulated thing comparing rifles carbs sabers etc and a raft of specials
i tried to use the biggest damage specials from both professions here - and yes whilst the comparison isnt perfect it does give us some idea. The original poit was to educate people that max dam 500 isnt twice as bad as max dam 1000 which is what soo many people on this forums seem to think
yep i see that 
- ill do some more numbers when i can. probably something like
BH firing A critical (or torso - but that has a bleed which will complicate matters further) with a rifle - carb and pistol
saber using power attack
saber using Adv throw on an AB target (how most things will be when fighting a jedi)
saber using A throw no AB
TK using adv combo
Anything else you think i need?
MasterSheep
Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:58 pm
#68
RemoMoxey wrote:
MasterSheep wrote:
the point of my post is to show that sabers (completely ignoring speed buffs/debuffs - and armourbreak both the + and - of using a saber) are actually well balanced (showed that with a 500-400 saber) and a 700-600 saber with 200 elemental is significantly better than anyother weapon. the solution isnt to powerup sabers to make them unbalanced the solution is for jedi to realise the battels they cant win and run.
Message Edited by MasterSheep on 08-31-2005 09:45 PM
You can't completely ignore these factors.........lol. I've never seen ANYONE not use speed buffs/debuffs or armorbreak if they are availible to the character.
correct - however they are nearly impossible to pin down exactly for me to calculate and someone alternating specials cannot be calculated at all
. Hence ive just looked at single hit damage here.
MasterSheep
Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:55 am
#69
firstly my background - im a weaponsmith who has recently unlocked jedi. as such i have a detailed understanding of how the weapons in this game work.
Im amazed at the number of comments i see on these boards along the line of..
""SABERS ARE RUBBISH _ A REGULASR RUN OF THE MILL JEDI CAN GET ABOUT 400-500 MAX DAMAGE ON THERE SABER WHERE AS ANY OLD WEAPONSMITH CAN MAKE ME A1160 MAX DAM LASER RIFLE!!! - OMG SABERS ARE SUCH RUBBISH WEAPONS!!!!!!!"
the caps are included to emphasise how these posts are often written
let me explain something that most players miss about sabers and why even an average 400-500 damage saber is still a terrifically good and ballanced weapon in this game.
lets compare 2 weapons
saber
400-500 damage
elemental heat - 125 (no banes crystal)
Gorax featherweight fwg5 kinetic weapon
384-966 (damage capped)
no elemental
i am aware that a pistol can be puped - however most will use a sac capped weapon - the stats on that pistol are one of the best pistol stats you can get and we are comparing it to a run of the mill saber
ok now the thing to remember is this - in low end pvp (farming the aacunan caves - killing cl4 womp rats etc) the weapons MAX damage comes into play. The difference between the weapons max and min is difided by 30 and depending on the CL difference between you and your target the weapon does an appropriate damage. eg 10 CL less than you it does max dam - 20 more than you it does min damage.
NOTE elemental damage is NOT effected by this - another + to the saber
WIth adv critical shot the PISTOL will hit a CL 70 for 1055 and a CL 100 for 420 - a huge range.
With improved saberpowerattack the saber will hit a CL70 for 653 and a CL 100 for534 - a tight range
NOTE the average saber does more damage vs high level targets than even the most enhnaced a pistol can get!!
ok PvP
first thing to note all weapon damages except elemental gets cut by .7 for pvp calculations - another + for a saber with its high elemental (also another + for commando weapons in PvP - but thats another story)
for PvP the weapons base damage is based on your acc vs the targets defences
if acc is 750 over defence you hit for the max
if acc is 750 less than defence you hit for the min
first test subject - master DEF jedi running im Aura - not AB
Pistol will hit for 317
Saber will hit for 325
(again using power attack and crit shot)
almost identical - that is in high end PvPa mediocre saber is pretty much equivelent to the very best pistols on the market...
vs a low defence opponent however..
eg a carbineer with 6000 resist battle armour and 4500 elemental..
pistol hits for 480
saber hits for 488
so even vs a weaker target the saber still holds its own
CONCLUSIONS
Max dam is a poor guide to high end PvP damage
Min damage is a much better guide
Elemental damage is vital for a good pvp weapon - sabers have alot of it
Sabers are remarkably well balanced - an average saber is just as good in high end PvP as the best a pistol can possible - simular stuff applies when you look at rifles and carbs - they hit slightly harder however fire slower
SABERS are NOT underpowered as weapons. they are desinged for high end PvE/PvP rather than low end grey con mob killing though - vs a CL90+ opponent even an average saber is by far the best choice.
A'ru
GlargTheKelfn
Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:58 am
#70
sliced : not the saber
sac pup: hit 45 on pistol, oops, 95 best you can do on a saber
compare it to an alr with a much higher min...
sac pup: hit 45 on pistol, oops, 95 best you can do on a saber
compare it to an alr with a much higher min...
Ryal
Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:04 am
#71
I may be biased or irrational at the moment... but i'm goign to try my hand at this post even though i was killed by a BH not long ago.
I am 5 boxes from full tempalte. I am MLS, some enhancer, 4242 healer, and novice defender. My defenses are low to nil, but I am of the mind that i should not HAVE to haev defender boxes in order to be a successful jedi. Perhaps that is a mistake. I dont know. But while we're on teh topic of damage , let me cite teh exampels of my litle bout tonight.
The battle was in 2 rounds, both rounds resulting in me having no force. in roudn 1, i got to the safety of a base, in round 2, i got so low on force that my force run died and i could not make it to the base and so i died.
During this fight, i applied armor break religiously whenever it would fail. it became obvious quiclky that my oponent was using AB sliced armor.
I never once did more than 700 damage.
I never once received any LESS than 800 damage, with the damage numbser over my head more often than not reading in the 1500s and at times reading as high as 2054.
I have one of those "average" sabers.. 599 max damage, 29 force cost, 101 sac.
I got low on mind at some poitns, but my action was never that low. Mostly because i was having to heal so much.
each 'round' of the duel lasted a good 5-8 minutes after which i was too low on force to continue the pointless exercise of rooting, KDing, and saberthrowing my taget for a whopping 600-700 damage which he coudl easily take 4 or 5 hits of and then heal once or twice and be back at full with minimal mind usage.
i dont give a darn what the numbers you crunch say about sabers vs rifles.
I deal less than 700 and take over 1200 average damage.
that is the bottom line.
I am 5 boxes from full tempalte. I am MLS, some enhancer, 4242 healer, and novice defender. My defenses are low to nil, but I am of the mind that i should not HAVE to haev defender boxes in order to be a successful jedi. Perhaps that is a mistake. I dont know. But while we're on teh topic of damage , let me cite teh exampels of my litle bout tonight.
The battle was in 2 rounds, both rounds resulting in me having no force. in roudn 1, i got to the safety of a base, in round 2, i got so low on force that my force run died and i could not make it to the base and so i died.
During this fight, i applied armor break religiously whenever it would fail. it became obvious quiclky that my oponent was using AB sliced armor.
I never once did more than 700 damage.
I never once received any LESS than 800 damage, with the damage numbser over my head more often than not reading in the 1500s and at times reading as high as 2054.
I have one of those "average" sabers.. 599 max damage, 29 force cost, 101 sac.
I got low on mind at some poitns, but my action was never that low. Mostly because i was having to heal so much.
each 'round' of the duel lasted a good 5-8 minutes after which i was too low on force to continue the pointless exercise of rooting, KDing, and saberthrowing my taget for a whopping 600-700 damage which he coudl easily take 4 or 5 hits of and then heal once or twice and be back at full with minimal mind usage.
i dont give a darn what the numbers you crunch say about sabers vs rifles.
I deal less than 700 and take over 1200 average damage.
that is the bottom line.
HardwiredXMan
Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:24 am
#72
The problem with this thread is that it's not the raw numbers on the weapons that dictate how good a weapon is. It's the intangibles that go along with the type weapon and how it can be used which makes the most difference.
Accuracy
EDIT: I overlooked something.....wrong info!
Availability of weapons
This is very short and easy. To get an uber pvp/high end pve worthy normal weapon (melee or ranged), I can take my WS and craft one in less than 5 mins. If not for having to wait for the factories, I'd have hundreds of them in no time. For the saber on the other hand, you can spend upwards of a year and still only end up with a saber that is simply "JUST AS GOOD" as those 5 minute produced uber normal weapons. The logic is backwards here. the short and quick route should yeild an average weapon, the long time consuming route should yeild the uber weapon. Point.....normal weapons are too easy to produce in mass quantities with minimal effort.....the new inspiration buffs isn't helping to make it any harder.
Weapon uses
Next issue is that when it comes to how good a weapon is, often the criteria for it is how much damage it can do in a short amount of time without having to go through great lengths to consisitantly get that damage.it's often about the intangibles more so than the raw numbers listed on the weapons.This means that using power attack to determine a sabers place in the damagecomparisons ofweapons is incredibly inaccurate. The majority of PVP fights is with constant movement. Usually it's due to the jedi having to chase down the kiting BH. Unless the jedi has force speed to catch him, or some other imobolizing ability, the jedi will never get a power attack off, let alone enough of them to make it's damage comparable to critical shot over an extended period of time. Remember, it takes time to traverse upwards of 48m (for enemies with 80m range) or 33m (for enemies with 65m range)....the jedi needs to get within 32m to even attack and must traverse an additional 27m and immobilize their target to get a power attack successfully lauched. During the time, he can be hit by multiple critical shots and various other attacks without even getting an attack in himself.
so range makes all that great high min damage of sabers pretty useless without other utility skills to get within range so a jedi can use that high min damage. Ranged profession only limit on doing damage is LOS, low accuracy and the defenses of the target. You don't have to wait until your target is in range to do any ranged specials nor do you have to immobilize your target to hit them with any special. It takes minimal effort to do massive damage with a ranged weapon compared to a melee weapon. If your melee, you have to have true skill and understanding of how to manipulate your opponent (when they are ranged). The downside is that you are fully disadvantaged until you can close the range or hopefully you have some uber defenses (which is why most jedi go master defender).
PVE Combat
Moving on.....I can say that during the course of pve, I agree that for the highest level pve mobs, a saber is hands down the best due to it's minimum damage and the fact that the enemy never kites....they close the gap for you and makes your job that much easier. So in pvp, being melee is an advantage (opposite of pvp). However, what's often not realized is that to take full advantage of that uber minimum saber damage, a jedi must have some pretty awesome defenses to even take on mobs higher than CL 90 without exploiting any flaws in the games design. Anything that cons purple to you will make mince meat of you in 3 or 4 hits, maybe even 1 hit if your defenses are low or non-existant. So here in this situation, that high minimum damage means only as much as how good your defenses are. So minium damage on sabers is not something we should be using for damage comparisions with normal weapons (typically ranged weapons).
Speed
Contrary to popular belief, rifles are not that slow. Sure they are slightly slower than pistols and carbines....but for the most part they are about the same speed as the average saber. What makes the saber slightly faster is the quality ofthe pearls/crystals one has and jedi or doc speed buffs. Crystals being the biggest modifier though. However, once again, you have the issue of the availability of crystals and the quality of the tunes you get. I can hunt krayts allweek (highest drop rate for saber loot) and tune crappy on every single pearl to the point none of them are useful. However, I can go hunt the gorax for 2 hours and get 3 to 4 bone drops and i'm just about garaunteed to get at least a set of 6 bones over 150 damage and great speeds. The same goes for krayt tissues. Then there's the BH power cubes that just kills all with the addition of SAC making crafted weapons even easier to produce. Bottom line is the risk are the same, but the rewards are worlds apart. For the same effort, the jedi falls short by a wide margin.
generally speaking though, the range, ease of acquiring uber loot drops and ability to have a barrage of weapon specials with upwards of 80 meter range and have the same speed as sabers(or better with spd power ups) makes sabers even weaker in comparison.
Oh and as for pistols go, I just crafted a damage capped, SAC capped DL44 XT, slapped a speed PUP on it and with my mods, it has .94 speed with over 900 max damage (can't recall the min right now) and it's not even sliced yet. with master pistoleer as my only combat profession with that toon, using that gun, she does 1k damage easily and would be what I consider in CU as being as close to speed capped as possible. Imagine adding a second combat profession to gain more specials and ranged speed. Not to mention she can use my 2.5 spd, 550 - 1143 damALR as well (which is also unsliced and doesn't have a power up of anykind.....sure it was crafted before CU, but that's not the point.....I can still craft one very close to these numbers.
Cost to use the weapon
This one is simple, jedi expend force, action and mind just to do one special attack. They recoup that cost at less than 1/3 of what non-jedi do. The weapons jedi have may be good by some people's standards, but when your limited to using your weapon in short stretches and you have to spend almost as much time recouping the energy you spent as you did fighting.....it basically makes those nice saber's into weak plastic power ranger swords my kid plays with. Now I know everything must have a cost, but it would be totally fine if non-jedi had a similar cost. A non-jedi can fight forever and only need 3 -10 seconds max to replenish HAMand continue fighting. When you look at the above issues and also factor in time spent fighting, the jedi comes out on the short end overall in damage and efficiency. Although, it's more than made up for in other abilities jedi have all in one template. I mean a jedi can be the equivalant of a healer, primary damage dealer,advancedtank and crowd control by themselves.
Conclussion
With just these things in mind (there are more than this, like sabers only being energy while normal professions can switch to kinetic when their opponent is wearing 8k energy resist armor), you can see why many jedi are wanting more powerful sabers. regardless of what the numbers say and the theorectical potential those numbers conclude when put in a spreadsheet, In the actual use of weapons in SWG, the numbers on the weapons don't tell the whole story. Number crunching is one thing, but applying those numbers to actual combat is completely different. It's not the actual numbers on thesaber that the jedi only go by when they want better ones, it's the actual availability and use of those sabers. If not for ADK's, the issue would be worse because our uber crystals/pearls would be decaying. I think that's why the devs put ADK's in the game.
As far as many jedi are concerned, the strongest weapon in the game should be a saber, not a rifle, not a pistol, not a blunt powerhammer, not a weak, short ranged fencer weapon (Ryyk blade ain't too shabby when crafted right).
I however, don't believe sabers should be themost powerful weapon in the game. That's only due to game balance. The fact remains that jedi have the most power of any profession in the game. They gain that power through a combination of abilities from each of the 5 discplines, not through one treeand definitely not through powers or the saber. The drawback to giving jedi more power in any fashion is that they mustbe separated from the rest of the community with the more and more power they get. IF not,jedi will own everything and everyone and that doesn't make for a fun gamefor non-jedi. If jedi get more powerful sabers (to the point they are the strongest in the game), then with the additional jedi abilities,jedi would become unbeatable. For game balance, this cannot be that way.
So as far as the sabers go,I think that they can be improved but not just by adding damage and making themequal to rifles damage. I think the betterthing to do ischange thecrafting of sabers to the point where every jedi can make a saber that fits their playstyle. All sabers shouldn't be the exact same. Here's an idea, since swg is far off the path of continuity already, how about jedi get to make a kinetic saber too. Now that would add a little improvement to damage since you can't remove or change armor in combat anymore. So a BH who comes in 8100 energy, AB sliced RIS armor may get a nasty surprise when the jedi whips out a 450 - 550 kinetic saber and goes to work on the BH's 4000 kinetic resist while using bleeds and other specials besides AB. So you add a little game of chance in the mix and it stops everyone from knowing their opponents cards before they are played. afterall, that's one of the most advantageous things in any kind of combat, guessing or knowing your opponents strengths and weaknesses. SWG-CU has made it to where, you know your enemies weakness before you even set your eyes on them or lay a blaster bolt or hot saber into their arse.
so there are many factors that basically make the raw numbers of any weapons diffucult to base any conclussions on. I mean, the chicago bulls didn't look legendary on paper, but they sure did when they stepped on the court and made history with 72 wins. The numbers didn't show that by a long shot.
Message Edited by HardwiredXMan on 09-01-2005 04:26 AM
Anakroid
Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:50 am
#73
I can assure you, my master BH toon with damage capped T-21 outdamages my saber everytime, and the saber is 563-663 dmg (not total crap).
If this game is about TRUE balance now, then for God's sake, give everyone the right to earn an equal saber.
Notaku
Thu Sep 01, 2005 3:19 am
#74
DustusNavar wrote:
Uhhh huhhhhh...
Notaku wrote:
But I think you are forgetting that a lightsaber is supposed to be strong enough to cut someone in half in one hit. I realize that wouldnt be fair to other players, but uhm....thats what lightsabers do! They shouldnt be balanced with a capped pistol! They should be able to kill a person in a matter of seconds with little effort, which is extremely far from the truth.
mmmmm hmmmm
Don_T_Shoot
Thu Sep 01, 2005 6:32 am
#75
All the original poster has succeeded in is reminding people that in high-end PvE and PvP that minimum damage is more important.
I accept that as true.
However, the assertion that sabers are as good as other weapons is false. Starting with PvE, the majority of a padawans PvE experience is in grinding equal level creatures, yet we must use one of the least effective weapons to do so. Doing half the damage of a non-saber. So right off the bat, sabers are half as good in one instance.
In the instance of high-end PvE and PvP, the higher minimum damage with the better and faster special modifier will give you the most effective weapon in terms of damage, this favors ranged professions with top end guns. At best, sabers have a slight edge if they are filled with max tuned pearls, shutting out a large portion of saber wielders.
So in two cases it is possible for a saber to better, though only if you looted your components before the CU and in a very common case, similar lvl PvE, they are vastly inferior.
All compared to weapons than can easily be obtained from a vendor or a simple "kill 1 to 20" easy creatures quest.
How is that fair? How are sabers better? It is not, and they are not. Equal, at best, for a lot more work. That is the story of the jedi(padawans anyhow) so deal with it. No amount of manipulated calculations and false assumptions will change that.
I accept that as true.
However, the assertion that sabers are as good as other weapons is false. Starting with PvE, the majority of a padawans PvE experience is in grinding equal level creatures, yet we must use one of the least effective weapons to do so. Doing half the damage of a non-saber. So right off the bat, sabers are half as good in one instance.
In the instance of high-end PvE and PvP, the higher minimum damage with the better and faster special modifier will give you the most effective weapon in terms of damage, this favors ranged professions with top end guns. At best, sabers have a slight edge if they are filled with max tuned pearls, shutting out a large portion of saber wielders.
So in two cases it is possible for a saber to better, though only if you looted your components before the CU and in a very common case, similar lvl PvE, they are vastly inferior.
All compared to weapons than can easily be obtained from a vendor or a simple "kill 1 to 20" easy creatures quest.
How is that fair? How are sabers better? It is not, and they are not. Equal, at best, for a lot more work. That is the story of the jedi(padawans anyhow) so deal with it. No amount of manipulated calculations and false assumptions will change that.
Message Edited by Don_T_Shoot on 09-01-2005 09:35 AM
Message Edited by Don_T_Shoot on 09-01-2005 09:37 AM
MasterSheep
Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:16 am
#76
Don_T_Shoot wrote:
All the original poster has succeeded in is reminding people that in high-end PvE and PvP that minimum damage is more important.
I accept that as true.
That was the original aim - im glad i achieved it - as for the "real world" issues with actually using sabers as pointed out in the above posts that is entirely correct. I agree that in practical PvP a saber can be one of the worst weapons to use. Guess that kinda sums it up - if anyone else wants to play with the numbers then the damage calculator ssheet is linked back on page 3.
- as for the "real world" issues with actually using sabers as pointed out in the above posts that is entirely correct. I agree that in practical PvP a saber can be one of the worst weapons to use. Guess that kinda sums it up - if anyone else wants to play with the numbers then the damage calculator ssheet is linked back on page 3.
Quiet420
Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:56 am
#77
MasterSheep wrote:
ok ill add in sayimp head hit (1.9 modifier - same as adv saber throw infact and thesame timer)on a 75% ab slice armour.
effectively that reduces the EXTRA damage done by 3/4 shouild be simple enough to adjust
if your gonna test with armor break applied, you have to use 2 attacks for each side.......one armor break, then the saber throw for the Jedi.......one head/body OR legshot, then one critical for the BH......and thats assuming the fight is starting out face to face with no one running
armor break is not a given, it causes an otherwise wasted action while your oponent is trying to flee
Swg-Addict
Thu Sep 01, 2005 9:30 am
#78
MasterSheep wrote:
[...]all ive done here is present the numbers - didnt say anything about whether this was what the game should be like. all ive done is present the truth from ingame
I have to disagree here and i show you why.
First of all, thanks for the effort at all.
But i think, this whole thread misses something important:
There are things/moves compared, which are simply not comparable and far from the game reality.
No Jedi would chainspam a powerhit, besides he WANTS to die quick due to the fact having no action left after 6 moves - bedies from warmup and roundup timers.
Jedi heals need action, mind and focecost...be very sure they would use mana, muna and mena too, if it would be in this game - so only a ..."not knower" wuold do that.
The regular moves on Jedi are imp head and imp leg, or head/standard.
When a non-Jedi runs out of action, he can switch back to his standard attack, regaining action while still hitting for 300-550 pts on standardattack.
The Jedi has literally STOP to spam ANY hit, since even the standard saberhit uses action (preventing the Jedi to regain action, or at least at a rate which is equal to none).
The FWG5 pistol from your initial posting does a damage
of 544, using the impr. body shot - against a level80 critter.
Honestly, i dunno why we see a level100 PVE creature here, who is fighting that besides from dungeons, where you go fulltemplated to loot something high wanted, and in GROUP ?
So sticking to reality (Bols, Pikets etc) at L80-82, the pistol is about 544 damage, the saber from your inital posting is (imp. headhit) 477 damage.
A carbine
500-897
0 Elemental
is doing (impr. legshot) 695 (wow) damage.
A rifle from your initial posting is doing (impr head)
791 (double wow) damage.
We are NOT talking about a saberdamage that is EQUAL to the damage of weapons that i can buy at any wepstore "around the corner". And we are FAR from talking about a playerclass (Jedi) which is AT LEAST 1.5 X stronger then any other elite combatprofession.
If you say "that counts only for the Jedi lucky enough to have really good saber/perls" - well, may i remind you that there are simply NO PERLS available in the required quality ?
I dont care if Tiggs is saying "they are, you just need to tune enough" or not, cuz this is simply untrue.
I hunted (to help our guildyounglings) a bazillion krayts and NS and highlevel critters for crystal/perls. We looted a BUTTLOAD of them. There was NO SINGLE perls better then 87 (or 90? ...hmmm...). That is 30-40 pts lower to a 120/-9 perls. Multiplied by 4 (4th gen saber) you simply miss 120 best, worsest 160pts. of damage. So no 700+, rather like 550-600 max damage. Fits pretty good the stats of the current saber post-CU ingame.
Yes, there are guys reporting of 700+ sabers post-cu.
I think these numbers find their way in the forums more due to the fact, that you cant examine a saber in a tradewindow, so you simply believe these numbers or gimme a sec (***load photoshop***), i think you hear me ...
I mean, its pretty simple:
If you are LUCKY at 12pts, you get a 290 4th gen crafted.
Add 4 X 90 to it and we talk about a 650 saber. Not 737 like some stated ....*cough*
AND THAT IS THE "IM SUCH A LUCKY GUY" CASE !
THe most post-cu Jedi loot perls like 63/-2
which results in 550ish sabers.
These are numbers you meet all time in the game, these are the realty
I tell you what:
I am a pre-9/10 Jedi with "uber" perls in my saber, no1 below 120/-9. I have a teal, i have tapes, i have mushroom food any i have the needed skills to play a Jedi
I died ONCE to a BH since i play SWG.
But i would NEVER EVER be so ignorant like some other players, posting "STOP YOUR WHINING BLABLABLA" since i know how VERY HARD a post-cu Jedi has it nowadays, running around with his 532 max dam. saber, nerfed heals, hillarious SAC/FC/Minddrain, tickling an 8K energy resistance, AB 75% sliced / 300+ def. BH with the full food program intus, who is spamming one of his 4 heals (shot, toss, spray, stim d on ruby) all 3 seconds for 1K+ heals, while the paddy is HAPPY to get off a 417 pt. headhit every 8 seconds (the other 3 hits miss anyway due to the accuracy/defense fork).
THAT IS THE REALITY.
Speed comes in here as a very important parameter.
Yes, the Rifle is SLOW compared to the saber, but who cares ?
See, the point is, when the rifle is SLOW, it just NEEDS longer (but the awesome damage WILL drain your mind at some point...bye bye healer, meet you at the cloner).
But (and this is important to know), the Rifleman can AFFORD to need longer, he can recharge on the standardhit, just waiting a few. Rinse repeat....
The Jedi CANT afford that, he has to manage 3 pools !
WHILE he gets hit for 500 pts all 2 seconds, thats why EVERY hunt/chase/Duell today is about POOLDRAINING.
No PvP player seriously trys to outdamage you, a good PvPler simply DRAINS you. When you down in action/mind/force, i kill you with a frigging 14pt damage move, cuz you cant HEAL. Thats the PvP nowadays.
Thats why i keep saying "Great Job SoE, by making the "Non attackable pools AGAIN (like pre-CU) a target (passiv target)".
It is about all these mosaics, when we talk about weapons and effectivness.
Its not only the plain number on a weapon, but the numbers can COVER some lacks, some professions are experiencing.
The most dangerous issue for a Jedi is TIME!
TIME !
It is NO DOUBT, that EVERY Jedi will die, when he has no purple left (force), is out of action (cant heal, cant fight) or mind (cant heal).
And since a Jedi is draining constantly all of his pools permanent (i wait for the day where a /bow costs 10% force/mind/action), he must OUTDAMAGE his foe.
And thats what the BHs do these days, they simply "sit" the Jedi out, waiting for their pools to fall. Only the Jedi with the UBER DAMAGE saber can avoid this:
By simply doing that much damage to his foe, that he will drain fast too, or even get outdamaged.
But THIS isnt to accomplish with a 500 max dam saber, PERIOD.
This is why Jedi weapons MUST be higher in damage, cuz the big hinderance of having-no-time is not "justifying" the "to low" damage considering this time-issue.
THIS IS WHAT PEOPLE NEED TO UNDERSTAND !
And these all, taken into consideration, is the base for "My saber is so very crappy..whine whine whine whine whine ".
Yes, a Jedi COULD win with a 500 dam saber, if he wouldnt kill himself draining his pools the same time (147 years) he needs to kill the "uberhealer" with his saber.
But this is a conjunctive...and "if...when"...and IFs and WHENs are never an issue, the "IS" is an issue, and the "IS" is, that Jedis get killed cuz their damage OVER TIME is way too low, draining their pools same time.
Either the Jedi are "enabled" by design to KEEP UP long fights (with WAY lowered poolcosts) or they must get better weapons.
But comparing a "stocked" FWG5 with no SAC on standardmoves to a saber using 3 pools for only swinging on the standard saberhit, is simply not the reality.
If some1 dont believes that, its prooven everytime you see a fulltemplate killed although he has NO AFK tag up....which shouldnt simply happen, following the "cu designnotes/posting of the SoE staff", but IS happening all day - after the Jedi got nerfed like hell hell hell hell.
Am i complaining ?
No, really not, not personally.
Im just pointing out some facts - like said - my Jedi is pre-9/10 and has pretty descent damage. But i jump in everytime i can to "fight" for all the Jedi out there, having NOT that "luck", missleaded by advertisingcampaign full of lies - ended up buying this...."bugcollection" (game isnt the appropiate term considering the maindefinition of a game: FUN)
You might read my posting following the link in my sig.
I keep saying, that Jedi/BH isnt sposed to be "balanced" in a way of "bringing the Jedi down/closer to elite prof".
But feel free to read my sig-link-posting, it explains pretty good how ME THINK to fix all of this crap.
OH:.important, for the records:
I have a Jedi
I am a CM
I have a BH (Pistol/CM)
and a Mcarb/CM/SL toon.
Message Edited by Swg-Addict on 09-01-2005 06:35 PM