Jedi Archive
Thread: Cloak really being nerfed, or just an over-reaction?
Phenix1050 wrote:
if you can't be targeted or followed...what's the issue? Snares don't stop you from moving. You can slink out of force drain range and regen your force. If there is no way to follow you, then they can't stay close to you to drain your force. If there's no way they can drain your force, then you can regen. If you can regen, then it's not an issue.
JediBaldy wrote:
No it won't for the problems I have highlighted in my response to your call for this - a snare is totally not needed, especially as I have said in the worse affected profession by this - one that has very little defences.
Yes it is - a BH that has a cloaked Jedi's mission can use his droids to get an update on you. You affect the perceptions of others around you, not droids. With a fast updating droid, he and his colleagues can just follow where the droid tells you to go, constantly draining the Jedi. The snare would mean that the Jedi could not move away from his hunting posse and whne you have a massive group on you, it drains really fast.
Cheers,
JediBaldy wrote:
Yes it is - a BH that has a cloaked Jedi's mission can use his droids to get an update on you. You affect the perceptions of others around you, not droids. With a fast updating droid, he and his colleagues can just follow where the droid tells you to go, constantly draining the Jedi. The snare would mean that the Jedi could not move away from his hunting posse and whne you have a massive group on you, it drains really fast.
and I support the BH droids getting messed up by cloak too. There are several examples of Jedi skills affecting droids. Perhaps when cloaked, a BH droid will report the location, but there is a 75% chance that it gives a random WP, not the location of the person. That would be interesting, I think.
As I said, I support removing ALL ways of tracking cloaked Jedi. if that is done, what other objections would you have?
Phenix1050 wrote:
EvilAztec wrote:
Well then I put to you:
Why not just have Cloak not aggro (which it shouldn't anyway!) and have world interaction (object or helping another player) break cloak. That's all that's really required to fix it, not this overdone nerf. I wouldn't care if those two things were the fixes (and would actually be giddy over them, I hate loot wh0res) but his is smacking a fly with an elephant gun.
Because then there is no downside to cloak except for force cost. With a snare in effect, you won't use cloak willy-nily, but use it as a tactical tool, the way stealth was designed to be. Stealth was never envisioned to be something that you use ALL the time, in my opinion. It's something you do to help with tactics. You use it when you need it, not when running between lairs. If there is no way to aggro you (which would be good), then cloak has no downside. Simply move away from enemies and regen force. There's no time limit on Cloak, like there is on Ranger stealth. There needs to be something about cloak that makes it extremely usefull at times, but isn't used ALL the time.
Phenix, my friend (and I mean that in an SWG sense, lol), this is where you have a misconception of cloak. You can't use cloak "willy-nilly" right now anyway. The force cost is tremendous and if you don't have force channel (as I don't), it's crippling.
I think this is where you and others are going astray. Trust me, the force cost alone is enough to make you use cloak judiciously, right now.
With the nerf, it will be impossible.
You and I run in different circles then. I've hunted with Jedi who use cloak between EVERY lair. Even if it's 100m, they'll pop a cloak to run between lairs. They cloak before entering a city and get to the starport terminal before de-cloaking. That is wily-nilly, in my mind. I understand the FC is large, but when you have people using it all the time, I'd say the FC might not be great enough to deter this behavior.
Drazharr wrote:
Phenix, my friend (and I mean that in an SWG sense, lol), this is where you have a misconception of cloak. You can't use cloak "willy-nilly" right now anyway. The force cost is tremendous and if you don't have force channel (as I don't), it's crippling.
I think this is where you and others are going astray. Trust me, the force cost alone is enough to make you use cloak judiciously, right now.
With the nerf, it will be impossible.
Phenix1050 wrote:
JediBaldy wrote:
Yes it is - a BH that has a cloaked Jedi's mission can use his droids to get an update on you. You affect the perceptions of others around you, not droids. With a fast updating droid, he and his colleagues can just follow where the droid tells you to go, constantly draining the Jedi. The snare would mean that the Jedi could not move away from his hunting posse and whne you have a massive group on you, it drains really fast.
and I support the BH droids getting messed up by cloak too. There are several examples of Jedi skills affecting droids. Perhaps when cloaked, a BH droid will report the location, but there is a 75% chance that it gives a random WP, not the location of the person. That would be interesting, I think.
As I said, I support removing ALL ways of tracking cloaked Jedi. if that is done, what other objections would you have?
The perception thatthe skill is purely a defensive / escape skill - it is not. It can and should be used for offence just as much. Having a snare on a cloaked Jedi would mean that you cannot get close to the person that you intend to assassinate - while all the time massive amounts of force being drained from the other npcs / players that are around you. The whole point of being total offence is that you are able to dish this all out in a short amount of time - if it works, your enemy lies dead at your feet. If he is able to withstand the barrage (like Mace Windu was able to fighting the Emperor in Episode 3), then it is your turn to take the pounding and die. It is all or nothing - which is what a Jedi devoted to the sdestructive tendencies of the dark side should aspire to do. A snare would stop this from happening.
Cheers,
Phenix1050 wrote:
You and I run in different circles then. I've hunted with Jedi who use cloak between EVERY lair. Even if it's 100m, they'll pop a cloak to run between lairs. They cloak before entering a city and get to the starport terminal before de-cloaking. That is wily-nilly, in my mind. I understand the FC is large, but when you have people using it all the time, I'd say the FC might not be great enough to deter this behavior.
Drazharr wrote:
Phenix, my friend (and I mean that in an SWG sense, lol), this is where you have a misconception of cloak. You can't use cloak "willy-nilly" right now anyway. The force cost is tremendous and if you don't have force channel (as I don't), it's crippling.
I think this is where you and others are going astray. Trust me, the force cost alone is enough to make you use cloak judiciously, right now.
With the nerf, it will be impossible.
Ahh, I understand where you are coming from now. Those are not willy-nilly uses of cloak at all. I don't do lairs anymore, but I am cloaked in starports all the time. That is a vital function of cloak. If you want to take that away from us, then we are on such different pages then it's impossible for us to agree.
Not only that, you are a different page than 90% of the Jedi population (my opinion, lol).
Still, I've enjoyed talking with you and wish you all the best. May the force be with you!
Phenix1050 wrote:
EvilAztec wrote:
Well then I put to you:
Why not just have Cloak not aggro (which it shouldn't anyway!) and have world interaction (object or helping another player) break cloak. That's all that's really required to fix it, not this overdone nerf. I wouldn't care if those two things were the fixes (and would actually be giddy over them, I hate loot wh0res) but his is smacking a fly with an elephant gun.
Because then there is no downside to cloak except for force cost. With a snare in effect, you won't use cloak willy-nily, but use it as a tactical tool, the way stealth was designed to be. Stealth was never envisioned to be something that you use ALL the time, in my opinion. It's something you do to help with tactics. You use it when you need it, not when running between lairs. If there is no way to aggro you (which would be good), then cloak has no downside. Simply move away from enemies and regen force. There's no time limit on Cloak, like there is on Ranger stealth. There needs to be something about cloak that makes it extremely usefull at times, but isn't used ALL the time.
Phenix,
no one in here is calling for or supporting a nerf on rangers. In fact, most of us are happy, thrilled, and/or generally pleased at the announcement for them. Here's the crux of the matter with the issue of cloak. Many, and I mean many, Jedi have a main weapon, either powers or saber, that is not able to compete with the average BH encounter these days. The devs have already stated that this situation WILL NOT change, i.e. higher quality pearls will not be dropping ever again. So many Jedi have been using cloak as a method of escape from xp loss. The snare will erradicate this usage and render countless Jedi helpless in the face of BH'es. That's not just a waste of 3 million xp on the cloak line, but many multiples of negative experience as well. We have tried to get these thing fixed changed since the CU has come out, the only results have been major nerfs. I was an Mdef before the AI nerf and then post the nerf. The ability was completely useless as the snare is one step above a root. I can see this team doing exactly the same thing to the cloak snare. They have given us no valid reason not to assume the worst. Their history with Jedi post-cu is the following:
AI major snare rendering it a small delay until the mdef eventually dies
Healing nerf to Jediwhile bringing up CM and Doc heals to an un-godly rate.
Loot for BH'es to make them maxxed out, while our loots get even more rare or simply don't drop anymore.
And the latest is to give Rangers a much needed and welcome update, but we must nerf Jedi to follow this pattern. (the snare is really my only complaint as it renders the skill useless in practical applications)
Do you see? Can you comprehend why people are upset? We assume the worst because generally post-cu that is what has been happening to a very large segment of the Jedi populace.Do not judge those that you do not understand, nor defend those that should not be defended in many people's eyes here.
Quiet420 wrote:
don't need to drop enhancer....use stasis
if you don't like that....pick up defender
cloak is getting changed, deal with it....it was never intended to be an "i escape, so i can recharge, then attack again" button
Actually you're wrong. Cloak was never intended to be a looting tool or a healing others while invisble tool. That's what is being changed. It was very much intended to be an escape tool, otherwise there is no point to cloak, because Powers is not much of a damage dealer.
This snare business is a joke, with all the exploits around that make cloak useless, they're now going to make us snared so it's even easier to exploit to kill us. If there is a snare they better fix all the /follow, AOE, assist exploits being used to break cloak or render it usless. And I mean every single one. If we're snared we better really be invisible for a change, right now if they know you're cloaked you might as well uncloak and fight them because of how broken cloak is right now.
I think you are wrong. Blix (a dev) has told BH's whining about Cloak that it was designed to be used as an alpha strike attack (just like the one BH's get). Never have I seen a Dev say that the intended purpose to to escape certain death.....that's wishful thinking by players. Blix has just stated there was a lot of unintended uses of Cloak that has come to their attention, no doubt base shutdowns, looting in PvE were not intended. Question remains though is escaping certain death an unintended design? I say with the snare added they think it was unintended and they plan to correct that with the Ranger fixes.
WCjtace wrote:
Quiet420 wrote:
don't need to drop enhancer....use stasis
if you don't like that....pick up defender
cloak is getting changed, deal with it....it was never intended to be an "i escape, so i can recharge, then attack again" button
Actually you're wrong. Cloak was never intended to be a looting tool or a healing others while invisble tool. That's what is being changed. It was very much intended to be an escape tool, otherwise there is no point to cloak, because Powers is not much of a damage dealer.
This snare business is a joke, with all the exploits around that make cloak useless, they're now going to make us snared so it's even easier to exploit to kill us. If there is a snare they better fix all the /follow, AOE, assist exploits being used to break cloak or render it usless. And I mean every single one. If we're snared we better really be invisible for a change, right now if they know you're cloaked you might as well uncloak and fight them because of how broken cloak is right now.
WookieOgre wrote:
I think you are wrong. Blix (a dev) has told BH's whining about Cloak that it was designed to be used as an alpha strike attack (just like the one BH's get). Never have I seen a Dev say that the intended purpose to to escape certain death.....that's wishful thinking by players. Blix has just stated there was a lot of unintended uses of Cloak that has come to their attention, no doubt base shutdowns, looting in PvE were not intended. Question remains though is escaping certain death an unintended design? I say with the snare added they think it was unintended and they plan to correct that with the Ranger fixes.
WCjtace wrote:
Quiet420 wrote:
don't need to drop enhancer....use stasis
if you don't like that....pick up defender
cloak is getting changed, deal with it....it was never intended to be an "i escape, so i can recharge, then attack again" button
Actually you're wrong. Cloak was never intended to be a looting tool or a healing others while invisble tool. That's what is being changed. It was very much intended to be an escape tool, otherwise there is no point to cloak, because Powers is not much of a damage dealer.
This snare business is a joke, with all the exploits around that make cloak useless, they're now going to make us snared so it's even easier to exploit to kill us. If there is a snare they better fix all the /follow, AOE, assist exploits being used to break cloak or render it usless. And I mean every single one. If we're snared we better really be invisible for a change, right now if they know you're cloaked you might as well uncloak and fight them because of how broken cloak is right now.
And I would completely support (edit) BLIX's (edit) entire proposition, but the fact remains that, a large portion of the Jedi populace do not have a saber to compete effectively versus ANY BH encounter. If the ability was there to make our sabers compete I'd probably not have much of a problem with the nerfage. This is not the case, saber speed bugs, non working loot tables (unless you are a BH btw), and the rest of Powers completely borked, even if the it was not intended it is simply unbalanced with all the other problems. When powers and sabers can compete effectively across the vast majority of Jedi with BH encounters sure no problem. Getting a saber to reach 600mx dmg is virtually impossible. Notice how I didn't ask for a perfect saber, or premiums or anythign else just a medicore saber for the vast majority of Jedi. This is the crux of the matter, every erf excaserbates the FACT that many Jedi simply cannot compete, not an I win button, compete a 50/50 shot to beat a BH.
Message Edited by jokerbacca on 09-19-2005 12:29 PM
WookieOgre wrote:
Blix (a dev) has told BH's whining about Cloak that it was designed to be used as an alpha strike attack (just like the one BH's get).
Just curious, do you have the link to that? I haven't found it.
antares
Message Edited by antares_Kauri on 09-19-2005 09:16 AM
antares_Kauri wrote:
WookieOgre wrote:
Blix (a dev) has told BH's whining about Cloak that it was designed to be used as an alpha strike attack (just like the one BH's get).
Just curious, do you have the link to that? I haven't found it.
antares
Message Edited by antares_Kauri on 09-19-2005 09:16 AM
Im not sure of the exact link but he did say that and it has been repeated many times.