Jedi Archive

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TatterSalad wrote:

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Ternque01 wrote:

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aose wrote:
yeah well, put sap back up to there debuff rate then it will be balanced... They dont want our skill being more powerful then theres so they nerf ours lower then theres.. Yeah that sounds fair to me. Good for one is good for the other..

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Again, a 26.4% decrease doesn't break game balance. If you want to nerf a few professions out of spite, I might have some issues with that.

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I must agree with Aose, lets have an all or none approach to this. If we all had near perfrect sabers then you would be right, in saying it isn't gaming breaking. But in reality there are very very few that have near perfect, or perfect sabers.

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TatterSalad wrote:

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hamhamthe3rd wrote:

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AtonuTragona wrote:

This looks like a huge unbalanced issue to me. 10% decrease in attack speed seems more reasonable.

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then itll be as useful as doc buffs, althoughuniformity is their brand of balance.

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In PVP isn't the point of a Doc to be the opposite of a CM. (i.e. equal but opposite)

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/bump

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Ternque01 wrote:

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aose wrote:
yeah well, put sap back up to there debuff rate then it will be balanced... They dont want our skill being more powerful then theres so they nerf ours lower then theres.. Yeah that sounds fair to me. Good for one is good for the other..

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Again, a 26.4% decrease doesn't break game balance. If you want to nerf a few professions out of spite, I might have some issues with that.

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Message Edited by MikeHammer on 08-15-2005 10:53 AM

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MikeHammer wrote:

Well, I might be wrong, but anyway, here's my point.

If I'm right the speed debuff just reduces your combat speed by 40 points. As you can see in the following picture, the increase or decrease of the combat speed value is less drastic once you get around 120-130 speed.

http://de.geocities.com/mike_hammer_x/SpeedModDiagram.gif

So while the speed debuff isn't too bad for MLS with high speed mods, it is absolutely deadly if you don't have that much speed. And I'm thinking of MPowers here, which basically have 0 combat speed bonus.

Maybe some other MPowers Jedi can confirm this or proof the opposite, but for a Force Wielder the speed debuff is much worse than for anyone else. I can only guess very roughly, but I think the speed of the force Wielder is almost reduced by 50% with this debuff, even with Force Speed 2 on. And that is a value I DO THINK is unbalanced.

But I don't have any hard data to proof this, so I'd like to consult another MPowers Jedi for confirmation.

P. S.: It's always nice to see some test results around here. But I think 2 minutes of attacking of one single char with one single weapon doesn't allow to determine if a skill is unbalanced or not.

I don't want to flame or anything, I just want to give some constructive criticism:

The duration of the test should be set to a fixed amount of attacks, not to a set amount of time

the test should also be repeated with different weapons with different speeds and different chars with different speed mods.

However, this test gave at least a rough idea on what the debuff does to a LS Jedi.

Message Edited by MikeHammer on 08-15-2005 10:53 AM

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I appreciate your input, but I would like to point out a few things.

First, I have tested this against players and NPC's with a host of different attack speeds. I tested it against creatures that were able to attack nearly once every two seconds, and I tested it against players who were only able to attack every 4 seconds (both without the debuff).

If you look at my tests, I even showed where the Jedi test subject turned on Force Speed 1. If you notice, there was a debuff of about 27.8% for while he had FS1 on, and he had a debuff of 25% with FS1 off. While this could EASILY be a discrepancy in the accuracy of the test (please see my data analysis elsewhere in this thread), it is CONTRATRY to what you claim above when you say that someone with more speed will have less of an effect.

Even against creatures who were attacking around once every 2 seconds, which indicates a LARGE attack speed, the debuff was ALSO shown to be around 27%ish.

I wholeheartedly encourage you to do your own testing to discover the truth for yourself. I've run about four tests against creatures and players with different attack speeds, and my results always return to that number.

I also encourage you to test your theory so that the entire ignorance surrounding this debuff can finally be addressed once and for all so that mutliple professions retain their functionality and purpose. Thank you.

Great job on your reporting!!

This is good and it does not need a "fix". It just means all those spaming fest Jedi need to be more cautious when getting viz or avoiding Bountyhunters.

"Run Forest, RUN!!!"

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Ternque01 wrote:

CONCLUSION

A 26.4% decrease in a target's attack speed in well within balanced parameters for a debuff attack.It is in no danger of disrupting game balance.

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Message Edited by HappyFunBal on 08-15-2005 11:38 AM

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HappyFunBal wrote:

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Ternque01 wrote:

CONCLUSION

A 26.4% decrease in a target's attack speed in well within balanced parameters for a debuff attack.It is in no danger of disrupting game balance.

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I'm not going to quote each response you've had to most of the rebuttle posts in this thread. I will say that I believe that the numbers you've gathered for your 1min tests, will probably differ by a matter of +- 0.0xx from a 5min or 10min test, which is not really all that relevant....as you've affirmed.

My question is how game breaking these speed debuffs are for a Powers user given that attacks are on a windup timer in addition to a self root which, in some cases, is unbreakable by the "caster"?

Take force lightning for example. Force lightning is used heavily as an attack by a Powers user. It's got a warm up timer that is dependent on combat speed. This warmup breaks on being hit and breaks on movement from the "caster".

Combat speed debuffs single handedly make Force Lighting unusable. I'll have to get my MCM and Jedi together to do some testing. My guess is that with no speed buffs and the CM combat speed debuff applied, the warmup will be at least 4seconds. More than enough time to consistantly be broken and thus negated.

Message Edited by HappyFunBal on 08-15-2005 11:38 AM

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Well, to be honest, that appears to be more of an issue with Jedi Powers attacks, and not the speed debuff.

You seem like a very reasonable person, and I think that you see that the speed debuff is working very much as intended for all forms of attacks except the ones that you have issues with.

It would be a GRAVE move to nerf something that is functional because of one exception, an exception caused by the poor design of some OTHER skill.

Please focus your efforts at correcting the problem of your Force attack designs. Doing so will preserve the usefulness of THREE professions in combat as well as improve your own in the process. I use Smuggler's Low Blow in combat against Jedi because I can't really DAMAGE them at ALL. It is one contribution that I can make in combat, and if it is taken away, so will my usefulness. Please consider this.

Good luck testing!

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Ternque01 wrote:

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HappyFunBal wrote:

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Ternque01 wrote:

CONCLUSION

A 26.4% decrease in a target's attack speed in well within balanced parameters for a debuff attack.It is in no danger of disrupting game balance.

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I'm not going to quote each response you've had to most of the rebuttle posts in this thread. I will say that I believe that the numbers you've gathered for your 1min tests, will probably differ by a matter of +- 0.0xx from a 5min or 10min test, which is not really all that relevant....as you've affirmed.

My question is how game breaking these speed debuffs are for a Powers user given that attacks are on a windup timer in addition to a self root which, in some cases, is unbreakable by the "caster"?

Take force lightning for example. Force lightning is used heavily as an attack by a Powers user. It's got a warm up timer that is dependent on combat speed. This warmup breaks on being hit and breaks on movement from the "caster".

Combat speed debuffs single handedly make Force Lighting unusable. I'll have to get my MCM and Jedi together to do some testing. My guess is that with no speed buffs and the CM combat speed debuff applied, the warmup will be at least 4seconds. More than enough time to consistantly be broken and thus negated.

Message Edited by HappyFunBal on 08-15-2005 11:38 AM

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Well, to be honest, that appears to be more of an issue with Jedi Powers attacks, and not the speed debuff.

You seem like a very reasonable person, and I think that you see that the speed debuff is working very much as intended for all forms of attacks except the ones that you have issues with.

It would be a GRAVE move to nerf something that is functional because of one exception, an exception caused by the poor design of some OTHER skill.

Please focus your efforts at correcting the problem of your Force attack designs. Doing so will preserve the usefulness of THREE professions in combat as well as improve your own in the process. I use Smuggler's Low Blow in combat against Jedi because I can't really DAMAGE them at ALL. It is one contribution that I can make in combat, and if it is taken away, so will my usefulness. Please consider this.

Good luck testing!

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I guess my response was really geared towards your conclusion. Given that even Mpowers is low DPS, largely due to it's lack of speed (cooldown timers warmup timers), another 25% decrease in speed would render that particular Jedi skill tree close to useless.

So in order for your conclusion to ring true for a MPowers, it would read, "A 26.4% decrease in a target's attack speed in well within balanced parameters for a debuff attack.It is in no danger of disrupting game balance. -except for Master Force Weilder". And of course the appended portion to your conclusion can be *insert a combat prof that is too slow*.

Of course I realize the fix lies within the Powers tree, not nerfing someone else's skills (combat medic). (Sorry SOE, you're going to have to fix mulitiple professions for certain fixes, not just nerf one skill from one profession and call it "good")

The last part in paranthesis does raise an issue though. If a particular skill of a profession impacts multiple professions, then it certainly has to be looked at to make sure that it's "working as intended". Only the game devs can decide if a 25% overall combat speed reduction is what they really intended for the CM. Of course if it's not what was intended......out comes the nerf bat.