Jedi Archive
Thread: a CL1 has ideas for the jedi profession
Neo_Thumper wrote:
rofl this could go on awhile
u wanted 2 know why so many ppl want jedi ok i'll tell ya
to all those ppl reading this ask yourself this question
whenyou was a kid how many of you wanted to be a jedi after u watched the movies. Cause i know i did
many ppl that play this game or about 25+ years of age so most was a kid at some point when a new starwars movie came out.....
maybe i was being a kid when i got this game but as sad as it sounds many ppl want jedi just 2 get jedino other reason lol (or maybe for the free toon you get) because it is the closest some of us BIG kids get 2 forefiling a dream we had as kids (sad isnt it lol)
but if u wanna know if a jedi master healer out heals a mdoc i can tell ya this for free you will never know because in 2 years of playing i have never nore am ever likelytomeet a jedi master healer as it is prolly THE most pointless master box for jedi.
yes there are some power players out there that play to be "uber" but that is the same as any proff
i can tell you right now the is atlestone guy on my sever that will kick ten kinds of crap out of 70% of jedi
its this the balance you mean so these guys can beat 100% of jedi
and to be honest i cant remeber what this post was really about now lol (hey its 8am my time and i havnt slept yet damn babyhehe
Message Edited by Neo_Thumper on 09-14-2005 05:14 AM
pizzathehut67 wrote:
Jacella wrote:
The FS grind is not even the beginning of the grind. The real grind starts AFTER padawan, and all it's associated risks.
Make a deal with you, I won't ask that you get nerfed if you stop this thread until you have a padawan.
i choose not to play a jedi because i like to craft. ill make a deal with you...
put together an intelligent argument as to why jedi should not be on a level playing field and ill withdraw my post and close the thread.
Very well, here goes:
to many "i dont know this" and i dont know that and i dont know.
its true, you dont know, if you dont know what your talking about, then dont try to speak like you are a educated about a subject that"you dont know about", it makes you look very stupid
Sith Apprentice / Bounty Hunter
Jacella wrote:
pizzathehut67 wrote:
Jacella wrote:
The FS grind is not even the beginning of the grind. The real grind starts AFTER padawan, and all it's associated risks.
Make a deal with you, I won't ask that you get nerfed if you stop this thread until you have a padawan.
i choose not to play a jedi because i like to craft. ill make a deal with you...
put together an intelligent argument as to why jedi should not be on a level playing field and ill withdraw my post and close the thread.
Very well, here goes:
First, we should figure out what is meant by a level playing field. If you mean that they should do no more damage, have no better defenses, and no larger array of skills than another combat profession, then I disagree. If, instead, that you mean that jedi should have risks and downsides to balance the additional skills and/or damage/defense boosts they recieve, then I agree, as long as the risks equal the rewards.
im saying take out the damage/defense bonuses and bring them in line with other classes. provide all jedi templates with some form of armor buff/defense buff/dodge buff in order to make it fair for those jedi who want to have a PvP template. instead of simply giving jedi a higher damage output on the baseline... give them a larger array of skills that, if used with skill, should beat any other template in the game. Skill should be the key to success in this game... not a higher baseline.
Now I will explain the reasoning. No, it's not because of a long grind or because of something I see in a movie, read in a book or made up because of an overdose of pixie stix and Mountain Dew. It's because there are risks, albeit widely ineffectual. No other profession has the joy of facing up to 5 combat professions at a time that get advatages of first strike. No other profession has the risk of xp loss. No other profession gains skills and ranking by pvp alone. Jedi is a pvp based profession by concept, design, and execution. Jedi have 2 built in enemies: Jedi and Bounty Hunters. The pve option is always available, but eventually, all jedi get on the terminals and will be hunted.
i disagree with forcing anyone into PvP or combat in general. the devs should nerf the entire idea of granting skills/advancement based solely upon combat.
Now, let's examine the competition. Jedi: all things being equal, jedi vs jedi will always be even. Bounty Hunters: here is where it can get fun. The Bounty Hunter has a range of possibilities that give it flexibility. They must be MBH, but beyond that, the Bounty HUnter has options of several different combat and medical professions to choose from to exploit the inherent weaknesses found in every jedi template. Pistoleers have mezz, which applied properly can be very deadly. Carbineers have snares and a 40-50 meter range. When combines with BR foods, this can cut a jedi down with little muss and fuss. Rifleman, one of the most effective of templates due to first strike, cover, covershot, startle, and the wonderful snipershot. With a 65 meter range without cyber, a properly played rifle/bh can ruin a jedi's day in 3 shots. Now we get into the combat medics...you see, at doc or cm 4000, they can outheal a jedi. Couple that with dots and a good scatter pistol or proton carbine or other non cert weapons or bh weapons, they can do a ton of damage while completely controlling a fight.
i have seen this supposed "first strike" in action. It seems that people assume jedi dont have the "best equipment" (CA's, good sabers, bio clothes etc.). Why is it that Heat' on bloodfin never seems to take damage from anyone other than a jedi? i stand in theed all day and watch a great deal of PvP... all the time watching the combat logs to see who is doing what. The other day Heat' owned a swordsman, a jedi, and some form of ranged combatant (i think a carbineer but it was hard to tell what kind of weapon he was using... cause he was dead in about 20 seconds). how is this explained? The only thing im rooting for here is a profession that rewards skill... not the grind.
Equal footing would be ok if there was only the possibility of one on one battles...but that isn't the case. Jedi face multiple opponents at the same time. If the new FRS will be anything like the old, then it will get much worse. Jedi will be Special Forces permenently and attackable by gank squads. They will not suffer the xp loss as before, but their FRS points will be decimated by a good group of players. This is where other templates, specifically designed to fight jedi come into play. The TKM/MSwords/Doc combinations, for example. They can attack jedi in droves and the jedi will fall. To compensate these challenges, jedi will need to be boosted up in the pvp category. No, we aren't required to joing the FRS, but neither is a WS required to master their profession.
once again i disagree with this... no one should be forced into pvp or combat... i dont care what template they use.
Now we move to the expectations of the community. Nobody wants jedi to be the same as a TKM combo... they expect jedi to resemble what they have loved and the reason the game has the Star Wars logo and not Firefly. Jedi are what make this genre unique and marketable. If you are going to have jedi in the game, they better fit the mold of what we all know jedi are supposed to be. The only reason they got nerfed at all was due to poor programming of the original code that didn't reduce pvp damage while maintaining the pve coefficient. When you give people too much power, they want to use it. This wasn't in check with the pre-9 jedi and the resulting nerfs came to bear. Then came pub 9, 10, 11, .....24 and jedi have been constantly adjusted, mostly downward and jedi are quitting the game. This is bothe good and bad. Many quit and never play their character again, but too many give it to friends, sell it or otherwise make sure that the nature mortality rate of jedi is artificially maintained. There are many many jedi that aren't played by either the first or second owners. This is a serious problem that SOE will need to address in the near future. Their marketing of the game with jedi as the primary feature requires that there be a migration of jedi in and out of the game to maintain playability. This doesn't mean "nerf them to death" but it means that character ownership and rights of transfer of character needs to be enforced as per TOS and EULA. THis, they haven't done.
agreed. noobs with a jedi = less fun for all but the morons
So, in summary, jedi do not and should not need to be ona level playing field. They are, by design, concept, and execution, faced with a greater risk and therefore require the "alpha" status. Does this mean that there shouldn't be another Alpha class? No. In fact, most jedi would love there to be one. So instead of calling for nerfs and/or complaining here about jedi, ask the developers and the powers that be (the marketing department) to create a second or even *gasp* third alpha class. I would love to play a Nightsister Witch or whatever the heck Asajj Ventress was.
let me explain. by level playing field i meant the baseline damage, speed, etc. should be on level with other templates. A series of buffs could be added to restore jedi's power and give a more intriguing and in depth choice of templates. I am looking for ways to require SKILL to be succesful... more specials and buffs, lowered baselines, and its all about how you play the game... success that is based notupon inate speed boosts (and the like)you have because of the programming... but because you are able to manipulate your specials in a skilfull manner.
side question: everyone says CM 4000 can outheal a jedi... but how far is that jedi in the healer template? if you mean that a CM 4000 can out heal a master healer then that definitely needs to be fixed pronto! CM 4000 and Healer 4000 should NOT heal for the same. Master CM and Master healer Should heal for the same... ill explain why
a jedi is using the force to heal themselves and others... a CM is using technology to do the same.
we can all agree that the force is not somthing one could just pick up and use... neither is medicine but if i had to pick which is more "user friendly"... id probably say its the syringe full of medicine.
CM's are likely healing for more because they are using enhancers. base healing abilities are most likely in line. By all previous arguments made by those saying the higher baseline is a good thing... then your own argument defeats you. That player took the time to go to a vendor and buy equipment... and... therefore... should be able to do it better than everyone else because they spent time on it.
I think the comparison of CM 4000 and Healer 4000 (place the 4's in whiche ever column you like) is bad one. CM in this case should heal for more as the jedi has accomplished 25% of their training... not a very skilled jedi i would think. The CM is also 25% completed... but they also have technology on their side
now... master healer vs. master CM? they should heal the same. that is to say... a master healer will heal for the same amount as a master CM using enhancers
pizzathehut67 wrote:
side question: everyone says CM 4000 can outheal a jedi... but how far is that jedi in the healer template? if you mean that a CM 4000 can out heal a master healer then that definitely needs to be fixed pronto! CM 4000 and Healer 4000 should NOT heal for the same. Master CM and Master healer Should heal for the same... ill explain why
Healer 4000 and Master Healer are about the same, and the CM 4000 wins everytime due to no force cost and lower mind cost.
a jedi is using the force to heal themselves and others... a CM is using technology to do the same.
we can all agree that the force is not somthing one could just pick up and use... neither is medicine but if i had to pick which is more "user friendly"... id probably say its the syringe full of medicine.
CM's are likely healing for more because they are using enhancers. base healing abilities are most likely in line. By all previous arguments made by those saying the higher baseline is a good thing... then your own argument defeats you. That player took the time to go to a vendor and buy equipment... and... therefore... should be able to do it better than everyone else because they spent time on it.
They outheal because they have 3 (4 including stim d's) heals on seperate timers.
I think the comparison of CM 4000 and Healer 4000 (place the 4's in whiche ever column you like) is bad one. CM in this case should heal for more as the jedi has accomplished 25% of their training... not a very skilled jedi i would think. The CM is also 25% completed... but they also have technology on their side
MCM should not outheal a MHealer, and a cm 4000 should not outheal a Healer 4000...it's the force, plain and simple.
now... master healer vs. master CM? they should heal the same. that is to say... a master healer will heal for the same amount as a master CM using enhancers
negilum wrote:
pizzathehut67 wrote:
negilum wrote:
pizzathehut67 wrote:
you overlook my point. you should not be 1.5X stronger just because you choose to play your game the way you do. Other people pay the same money. I agree that jedi should be more powerful than combat profs and should be hard to take down. but a mediocre player should have a chance to compete. combat (just like crafting) should be based upon skill and what you have learned. NOT a higher baseline just because you choose to play a different way.
wrong. this is a rpg not a fps. advancement is based on time played not money payed. the more effort you put in the greater reward you get. rpg's have always been based on time=power and always will be. also jedi is not the only case where this happens. the more effort non jedi put in the greater material rewards the get. uber resources, uber grear, credits, and reward items. a weaponsmith that has been playing since launch and has invested hundereds of hours in acquiring resources, building a business, and establishing a reputation will have a huge advantage on one who didn't invest that time and effort.
but the time played would also teach the player to use their skills more effectively. you SKILL should be the determining factor in combat... not how long of a grind you did.
it's a role playing game. character skills are more important than player skills. character equipment is more important than the players pc and connection. button pushing is only as effective as the buttons you have to push. yes a person who has a better understanding of game mechanics will do better than a player who doesn't. account age means nothing, time invested means a lot.
templates are only as effective as the people who play them. you fear this because you know you NEED that baseline to be successful. if you did have the skills im referring to... you would be rooting for this as it punsihes the ebayers and respecs
like you say yourself time PLAYED makes you more effective. part of determining time played is the prerequisites for mastering a profession. jedi has the highest requirements, thus jedi has the highest baseline power. that baseline, for all profs, can be increased by investing even more time in acquiring better quality gear.
a jedi can also get better gear and equipment... so that argument is pointless. Why must other player's rely on skill because you chose to do a long grind? the jedi professions power should come from a more diverse skill set that allows a more skilled player more options. when used correctly, the jedi who can utilize tactics and their own skill should best every other profession.
all that the $15 a month you spend does is give you access to content, it is up to the player to decide how to use that access. you set your own goals and you reap your own rewards. if you choose a less difficult goal you earn a lesser reward. if you choose a more difficult goal you earn a greater reward.
so you choice is worth more than mine... how egotistical of you. why should i be punished for not choosing what you choose?
drop the ego. becoming a jedi has nothing to do with needing a crutch. it's high level content designed for those who have already finished with many parts of the game. if a player chooses to pursue higher goals the player will receive higher rewards once they finish. those who don't choose to become jedi, hunt for uber loot, or harvest the best resources will not get the best rewards.
see the key word there? REWARDS, not punishment. there is no punishment aspect whatsoever, anyone who wants to become a jedi can. becoming a jedi is a reward for those who have chosen to play in an advanced system with more difficult requirements and a higher powerlevel( or it used to be, it's been phenominaly watered down over the past 2 years).
it's time based advancement and it's the nature of roleplaying games. if you can't accept that go spend your money elsewhere, i'd suggest a FPS where everyone hits the same start button and everyone is equal, i'm sure you could demonstrate your superior skills there without haveing to earn anything, which is apparently exactly what you want.
Neo_Thumper wrote:
ok im back
jedi have a higher baseline do they ok
tell me what server u r on
if ur not on my server make a temp toon
then u pick ANY combat toon (and i mean 2 elite masters) that have played 4 2 years
i'll will duel them maybe then u will stop callin 4 nerfs 2 jedi
cause as it standsatm a non jedi with good loot/weapon/armour (which they got over time i mite add so time does make a BIG differance) and i will bet u they will kick my butt.
then u can tell me y jedi need a nerf cause atm we r no better then 2 elite combat proff with some doc or cm
and in some cases we r weaker ei the post-cu jedi
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
now 4 another thing
ur a better chef then a guy who just starnd 2 days ago right ????????
ok lets nerf u so u r no better them him
ur been playing 2 years hes been playing 2 days whats the differance
u make better food then him naaaaaaaaaah thats not fair. he has been playing 2 days after all lets make him as good as so even tho he has done nothing ingame
ahhhh dont wanna make him better ??????. ok we will nerf u and make u his level even tho uve been playing 2 years that shouldnt count for nothing should it ??????
dude ur thread started well but uve just gone onto askfor nerf after nerf. lol just like every other non jedi
ur post had the starting of something hopeful now isee itfor what it was jedi h8ing AGAIN
u dont like the fact jedi have a higher baseline fine. if it bothers u that much play EVE, WOW ect if it dosnt bother u that much then play UR game and dont ask the other ppl b brought downto ur level just cause u cant be bothered/dont have the time 2 grind jedi. play ur own game and let us play ours
Message Edited by Neo_Thumper on 09-14-2005 05:14 AM
Jacella wrote:
pizzathehut67 wrote:
side question: everyone says CM 4000 can outheal a jedi... but how far is that jedi in the healer template? if you mean that a CM 4000 can out heal a master healer then that definitely needs to be fixed pronto! CM 4000 and Healer 4000 should NOT heal for the same. Master CM and Master healer Should heal for the same... ill explain why
Healer 4000 and Master Healer are about the same, and the CM 4000 wins everytime due to no force cost and lower mind cost.
a jedi is using the force to heal themselves and others... a CM is using technology to do the same.
we can all agree that the force is not somthing one could just pick up and use... neither is medicine but if i had to pick which is more "user friendly"... id probably say its the syringe full of medicine.
CM's are likely healing for more because they are using enhancers. base healing abilities are most likely in line. By all previous arguments made by those saying the higher baseline is a good thing... then your own argument defeats you. That player took the time to go to a vendor and buy equipment... and... therefore... should be able to do it better than everyone else because they spent time on it.
They outheal because they have 3 (4 including stim d's) heals on seperate timers.
I think the comparison of CM 4000 and Healer 4000 (place the 4's in whiche ever column you like) is bad one. CM in this case should heal for more as the jedi has accomplished 25% of their training... not a very skilled jedi i would think. The CM is also 25% completed... but they also have technology on their side
MCM should not outheal a MHealer, and a cm 4000 should not outheal a Healer 4000...it's the force, plain and simple.
now... master healer vs. master CM? they should heal the same. that is to say... a master healer will heal for the same amount as a master CM using enhancers
Bang on as usual Jacella.
Pizza - It's a false argument to talk about technology vs the force and try to 'real world' game mechanics. It's the same as someone arguing a MLS jedi should cut through any non-jedi within range in seconds because that's what a MLS jedi would do in the 'real' SW universe. It isn't a valid argument for the game.
Also with regard to the consistent argument you are making about equal "baselines" particularly for damage... I may be missing something here but last I checked jedi are far from the highest damage dealer. Also, along with TK, the only profession denied AB protection. Equalising these primary baselines would in fact involve buffing jedi's power, not reducing it - so I'm not clear what your argument is. 