Jedi Archive
Thread: a CL1 has ideas for the jedi profession
pizzathehut67
Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:38 pm
#53
im grinding force sensitive crafting to unlock an account to make a ranger/BE (if thats possible
Jacella wrote:
Grind a jedi and then come as look at your post again.
pizzathehut67 wrote:
Is every other poster on these boards a communist? When did work stop providing a reward? I had an AS and my crap bone armor was ignored on the bazaar, that was totally against the greater good of thegame and I should have the same bankroll as that illiberal malcontent that made the armor that sold while mine went unnoticed. I deserved the same game experience that the 90% comp peddlers were having! Yes Mr. Bounty hunter I know you spent 12 million on your armor not including adk's, but your hurting my game experience because I cant kill you. McCarthy help!!!
more work unlocked a cool character that should bring with it added content and a slight but noticeable advantage. it became cummunistic as you when we all payed the same 15 dollars a month to play the game. So by your terms... because of the way you choose to play your game you should be better than everyone else because of a raised baseline?
). i dont want to be a jedi... one combat prof is enough for me. I know you feel your grinding should give you all sorts of uberness... but you CHOSE to do that grind. i am saying that jedi should have more (and more diverse) specials to allow those who are skilled to be truly uber. a SKILLED jedi should be able to beat people 95% of the time. right now, unskilled players say "i did a long grind so i should be uber"... well, if you were skilled enough you wouldnt be worrying about my proposed change would you?
pizzathehut67
Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:40 pm
#54
you overlook my point. you should not be 1.5X stronger just because you choose to play your game the way you do. Other people pay the same money. I agree that jedi should be more powerful than combat profs and should be hard to take down. but a mediocre player should have a chance to compete. combat (just like crafting) should be based upon skill and what you have learned. NOT a higher baseline just because you choose to play a different way.
wrong. this is a rpg not a fps. advancement is based on time played not money payed. the more effort you put in the greater reward you get. rpg's have always been based on time=power and always will be. also jedi is not the only case where this happens. the more effort non jedi put in the greater material rewards the get. uber resources, uber grear, credits, and reward items. a weaponsmith that has been playing since launch and has invested hundereds of hours in acquiring resources, building a business, and establishing a reputation will have a huge advantage on one who didn't invest that time and effort.
but the time played would also teach the player to use their skills more effectively. you SKILL should be the determining factor in combat... not how long of a grind you did.
mudcnd
Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:48 pm
#55
So ive been up all night reading about non-jedi servers and nerfs and things like that. But i think i actually have a solution that works for everyone... or rather a series of idea. The complaints i mention are not mine... remember im a NON-COMBAT CL1. i did just buy an alt and am making it BH... and i will try a few jedi missions to see what its all about... but im more about the loot and vendors . Before you say it, i have not fought or lost to a single jedi. My one PvP death came at the hands of a CL80 Teras Kasi Master.
READ THE WHOLE THING AND POST ONLY IF YOU WANT TO BE POSITIVE, HELPFUL AND THOUGHTFUL! i know its the status quo to flame, but i did put some effort and thought into trying to think of an equitable solution for everyone. Show some respect and put your thoughts into constructive criticism. If you dont like my ideas then please tell me why and what you think should change.
-remove all bugs related to stacking pearl damage, using macros to dole out massive amounts of damage in a second, and anything else that can be used as an exploit. when coupled with the template... the 1.5X stronger thing becomes 10X stronger. These need to be removed if they havent been already (sometimes i read old posts and dont know it). Likewise, remove exploits from all other combat profs as well. These exploits should be a top priority.
Complaint: "Jedi are too powerful"
Answer from player base: "we should be... we did a long grind for it. You just need to use your skills better"
my take: Allowing any one profession to be more powerful off the bat in any fight is ludicrous. I dont care how long your grind was. Im a tailor/chef/artisan (merchant dabble). I did plenty of grinding and i dont think i deserve a better selling product or more money because i did more grinding than someother crafting prof. Done plenty of grinding ????? lol" i dont think i deserve a better selling product or more money because i did more grinding than someother crafting prof." Are you saying that thefoods that u craft did not improve when you mastered chef ??? I think they did, see and now with your uber foods the nov chef down the street cant compare to the foods u create
Why does a combat prof feel they need more power because they had to grind more? While it is true that jedi are more powerful in the movies (although there are parts that conflict with that directly), you cant have a multi-player game have an alpha or better class. It simply unbalances the game. Why should everyone else need to be the best and most skilled PvP'er when you dont have to? Besides all that, the continuity argument is simply trash... SOE doesnt give a damn about continuity or else they wouldnt have allowed so many people to become a jedi would they?
my answer: Give jedi more special abilities and lower the bonuses on some. im not exactly sure what bonuses the jedi have, but i have heard that several are over-powered. There is one i read about that gives 500 defense while advanced aim in the rifle tree doesnt even give half that bonus in accuracy. more diverse specials (but on par with other profs) would still give jedi the edge... but would require a jedi to also have to rely mainly on their skill. Claiming "i grind so i should be what i am" is an ignorant argument. To have a game be fun for everyone... everyone should be on a generally equal playing field. As stated, jedi would still have a distinct advantage... but this advantage would come from a greater number of tactical choices and not simply having a more powerful base line.
Complaint: There are too many jedi
Answer from player base: im really not sure anyone disagrees with this... there simply are too many
my take: i think we do have an over-population problem with jedi. But im beginning to believe more and more that jedi is a pretty much empty profession. Sure, you can do grievous runs as those are geared towards jedi. But, how many times can you kill grievous before its boring as hell?
my answer: Make jedi more engaging and immersive to play. Add fun random events that can occur to a jedi. A special quest where the ghost of some ancient jedi simply appears to a jedi when they are alone and gives the quest to only that jedi for only that jedi to do. Make some sort of penalty for using force skills within cities or do somthing to make the jedi feel illegal. Honestly, if a sliced gun gets you assaulted by stormtroopers... so would tossing a saber around! Why would this reduce the number of jedi? it really wouldnt... but adding in little things like the imperials hunting you, the feel of being an outcast or illegal, and more content for jedi would help to alleviate the 30vs.30 jedi battles in theed. By content i do not mean more special loot that jedi can get... but rather engaging stories the jedi can play through.
Complaint: The high level caves are geared for jedi... making it too difficult for regular profs to accomplish.
answer from player base: use your skills better
my take: again, having a class that is simply better to begin with is unfair. and arguing that it holds true to the canon is a nerfed argument as there no longer is any correlation to canon in this game at all.
my answer: simple! when Luke was on Dagobah and stared into the decapitated head of darth vader in that little cave, he found himself in a dark place he couldnt bare to be in. Even the all powerful yoda didnt go in there. Why not add in caves geared for regular profs that have a similar ailment the cave on dagobah has? jedi would be allowed inside... but say that force powers and skills dont work inside of the cave. the content and loot in the cave would be geared for regular combat profs just as the content and loot for the current high level mobs should be revamped to be geared to jedi. To put it another way, if a cave is geared to a jedi's level, make the loot acquired geared towards a jedi. Dont make a high level mob a money making tool for a jedi.
more to come later... i do need a teeny bit of sleep <---- I think you need a lot more than sleep
More to come later ??? please no.
negilum
Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:13 pm
#56
pizzathehut67 wrote:
you overlook my point. you should not be 1.5X stronger just because you choose to play your game the way you do. Other people pay the same money. I agree that jedi should be more powerful than combat profs and should be hard to take down. but a mediocre player should have a chance to compete. combat (just like crafting) should be based upon skill and what you have learned. NOT a higher baseline just because you choose to play a different way.
wrong. this is a rpg not a fps. advancement is based on time played not money payed. the more effort you put in the greater reward you get. rpg's have always been based on time=power and always will be. also jedi is not the only case where this happens. the more effort non jedi put in the greater material rewards the get. uber resources, uber grear, credits, and reward items. a weaponsmith that has been playing since launch and has invested hundereds of hours in acquiring resources, building a business, and establishing a reputation will have a huge advantage on one who didn't invest that time and effort.
but the time played would also teach the player to use their skills more effectively. you SKILL should be the determining factor in combat... not how long of a grind you did.
it's a role playing game. character skills are more important than player skills. character equipment is more important than the players pc and connection. button pushing is only as effective as the buttons you have to push. yes a person who has a better understanding of game mechanics will do better than a player who doesn't. account age means nothing, time invested means a lot.
like you say yourself time PLAYED makes you more effective. part of determining time played is the prerequisites for mastering a profession. jedi has the highest requirements, thus jedi has the highest baseline power. that baseline, for all profs, can be increased by investing even more time in acquiring better quality gear.
all that the $15 a month you spend does is give you access to content, it is up to the player to decide how to use that access. you set your own goals and you reap your own rewards. if you choose a less difficult goal you earn a lesser reward. if you choose a more difficult goal you earn a greater reward.
DMANMAX
Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:57 pm
#57
In free market economies work = reward. SWG is a free market economy, if you make better armor because you spent many nights trying to get the perfect resources then good for you, profits are on the rise. If I spend many nights trying to grind 34million jedi xp at a meer 1k xp jer kill (not to mention the 7.45 million FS xp we had to grind out), then I deserve to at least have a better arange of skills at my use then someone who had to grind out 6 million of rifle xp at 5k per kill.
But the Jedi Profession is not the UBER 1337 PWNZERED profession. We are skilled in all, masters of none. We can heal good, but a Doc can heal better. we can defend well, but a TKM can do better (because they do not have a force pool). We can damage well, but a swordsmen or riflemen can do better.
The only reason people do hate jedi is because there is no Saber TEF in NPC cities, and because of the FRS when it was introduced in October 2004. Before the old FRS you were excited to see a Jedi, at least I was.
pizzathehut67
Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:31 pm
#58
DMANMAX wrote:
In free market economies work = reward. SWG is a free market economy, if you make better armor because you spent many nights trying to get the perfect resources then good for you, profits are on the rise. If I spend many nights trying to grind 34million jedi xp at a meer 1k xp jer kill (not to mention the 7.45 million FS xp we had to grind out), then I deserve to at least have a better arange of skills at my use then someone who had to grind out 6 million of rifle xp at 5k per kill.
But the Jedi Profession is not the UBER 1337 PWNZERED profession. We are skilled in all, masters of none. We can heal good, but a Doc can heal better. we can defend well, but a TKM can do better (because they do not have a force pool). We can damage well, but a swordsmen or riflemen can do better.
The only reason people do hate jedi is because there is no Saber TEF in NPC cities, and because of the FRS when it was introduced in October 2004. Before the old FRS you were excited to see a Jedi, at least I was.
you do realize that your attempt to put my point down is actually in support of me right?
"then I deserve to at least have a better arange of skills at my use then someone who had to grind out 6 million of rifle xp at 5k per kill." is what you said... i am saying that jedi should have more (and more diverse) skill sets. lower the baseline and give more skills. the added power is in the skills and the player's ability to use them. If you are a skilled player this would be a dream for you.
pizzathehut67
Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:38 pm
#59
Jacella wrote:
A brief answer to all 3 question:
- Jedi should be more powerful. That is without question. Alpha classes are good for games in more ways than I can count. The problem is when the power is given without a responsibility attached to that power. Currently, finished template jedi have no reason to hold back. There isn't any reason for them to not abuse their power to destroy the gameplay of non-jedi combattants. There also isn't any reason for someone to NOT go jedi. What needs to happen is a check to keep jedi from showing off in starports. This check has been built into the game, but not fully realized. There are 2 professions that should be hunting jedi, not just one. Bounty Hunters and TKM. XP loss isn't enough to get jedi to mind their p's and q's. There needs to be a jedi counsel (npc) that can dispatch DJM's to deal with jedi after their vis gets above a cirtain point. A death by one of these djm's would cause a 30 min incarceration in the fs village...and that timer would only run while not afk or logged. TKM's should also be able to pull jedi missions, since that was their initial role. A death to one of them would cause simple xp loss. Additionally, when xpget's below -5 million, jedi should be teleported to some backwater of Dath or Yavin and be forced to grind xp up to zero before being released. Here's the catch, xp would be gained at the same rate as a normal profession until zero is reached.
i dare you to name three ways in which having an alpha class is better for the game? i can name three ways it isnt right now. 1. it unbalances the game and upsets the population ratios of the classes. 2. people will flock to the "alpha" class because it is clearly better... thus... all supporting classes end up supporting the one "alpha" class and other classes recieve less support as a result of specialization in the higher volume markets (basic economics really does apply to SWG). 3. An alpha class creates a social disparity between those playing it and those who choose not to... a definite increase "lolzors you suXorz i pwn joo" type people with their inflated egos would urinate all over good sportsmanship (it already happens).
- Too many jedi? Nope. Too many VISIBLE jedi? Yes. The above would fix that problem.
um... thanks for agreeing with what i posted
- POI's for jedi only? You are on drugs with this one. There isn't a cave or instance that cannot be completed by a group of non-jedi. Or am I missing your real point?
it is in the patch notes that the grievous cave was rebalanced to be more in line with a jedi template.
pizzathehut67
Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:42 pm
#60
I did plenty of grinding and i dont think i deserve a better selling product or more money because i did more grinding than someother crafting prof. Done plenty of grinding ????? lol" i dont think i deserve a better selling product or more money because i did more grinding than someother crafting prof." Are you saying that thefoods that u craft did not improve when you mastered chef ??? I think they did, see and now with your uber foods the nov chef down the street cant compare to the foods u create
yes they did because i chose to invest the skill points and play that way... but that doesnt give me a higher baseline. a master of a prof should always be better than a novice... but what you imply here is that jedi should be the "master" of all professions. i still have yet to hear an intelligent argument defending why jedi should simply have a higher baseline.
arguments against the higher baseline:
1. it requires the jedi player to use less skill
2. it creates an imbalance
3. everyone else pays the same money and simply made a different choice... why are they punished because they dont choose to play the way you do?
simply put, your reward should be based upon you skill and knowledge... not how long of a grind you did
pizzathehut67
Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:43 pm
#61
Jacella wrote:
There is no level playing field in a game...ever!
sic_nos_defleo wrote:
"we should be... we did a long grind for it. You just need to use your skills better"
i grind so i should be what i am" is an ignorant argument. To have a game be fun for everyone...
everyone should be on a generally equal playing field
what? by that logic.....
"Hey Dr. King! black's never got equal treatment before.... ever!"
i still have yet to hear an intelligent argument as to why jedi should have a higher baseline instead of a skill set that, if used with skill, would best all other professions.
pizzathehut67
Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:45 pm
#62
Jacella wrote:
The FS grind is not even the beginning of the grind. The real grind starts AFTER padawan, and all it's associated risks.
Make a deal with you, I won't ask that you get nerfed if you stop this thread until you have a padawan.
i choose not to play a jedi because i like to craft. ill make a deal with you...
put together an intelligent argument as to why jedi should not be on a level playing field and ill withdraw my post and close the thread.
pizzathehut67
Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:46 pm
#63
DMANMAX wrote:
In free market economies work = reward. SWG is a free market economy, if you make better armor because you spent many nights trying to get the perfect resources then good for you, profits are on the rise. If I spend many nights trying to grind 34million jedi xp at a meer 1k xp jer kill (not to mention the 7.45 million FS xp we had to grind out), then I deserve to at least have a better arange of skills at my use then someone who had to grind out 6 million of rifle xp at 5k per kill.
But the Jedi Profession is not the UBER 1337 PWNZERED profession. We are skilled in all, masters of none. We can heal good, but a Doc can heal better. we can defend well, but a TKM can do better (because they do not have a force pool). We can damage well, but a swordsmen or riflemen can do better.
The only reason people do hate jedi is because there is no Saber TEF in NPC cities, and because of the FRS when it was introduced in October 2004. Before the old FRS you were excited to see a Jedi, at least I was.
yes... work=reward... but the reward in this case is a bad one! the reward should be a skill set that promotes the use of skill. and, if skill is used with the skill set, the profession should best all others.
pizzathehut67
Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:51 pm
#64
negilum wrote:
pizzathehut67 wrote:
you overlook my point. you should not be 1.5X stronger just because you choose to play your game the way you do. Other people pay the same money. I agree that jedi should be more powerful than combat profs and should be hard to take down. but a mediocre player should have a chance to compete. combat (just like crafting) should be based upon skill and what you have learned. NOT a higher baseline just because you choose to play a different way.
wrong. this is a rpg not a fps. advancement is based on time played not money payed. the more effort you put in the greater reward you get. rpg's have always been based on time=power and always will be. also jedi is not the only case where this happens. the more effort non jedi put in the greater material rewards the get. uber resources, uber grear, credits, and reward items. a weaponsmith that has been playing since launch and has invested hundereds of hours in acquiring resources, building a business, and establishing a reputation will have a huge advantage on one who didn't invest that time and effort.
but the time played would also teach the player to use their skills more effectively. you SKILL should be the determining factor in combat... not how long of a grind you did.
it's a role playing game. character skills are more important than player skills. character equipment is more important than the players pc and connection. button pushing is only as effective as the buttons you have to push. yes a person who has a better understanding of game mechanics will do better than a player who doesn't. account age means nothing, time invested means a lot.
templates are only as effective as the people who play them. you fear this because you know you NEED that baseline to be successful. if you did have the skills im referring to... you would be rooting for this as it punsihes the ebayers and respecs
like you say yourself time PLAYED makes you more effective. part of determining time played is the prerequisites for mastering a profession. jedi has the highest requirements, thus jedi has the highest baseline power. that baseline, for all profs, can be increased by investing even more time in acquiring better quality gear.
a jedi can also get better gear and equipment... so that argument is pointless. Why must other player's rely on skill because you chose to do a long grind? the jedi professions power should come from a more diverse skill set that allows a more skilled player more options. when used correctly, the jedi who can utilize tactics and their own skill should best every other profession.
all that the $15 a month you spend does is give you access to content, it is up to the player to decide how to use that access. you set your own goals and you reap your own rewards. if you choose a less difficult goal you earn a lesser reward. if you choose a more difficult goal you earn a greater reward.
so you choice is worth more than mine... how egotistical of you. why should i be punished for not choosing what you choose?
negilum
Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:16 pm
#65
pizzathehut67 wrote:
negilum wrote:
pizzathehut67 wrote:
you overlook my point. you should not be 1.5X stronger just because you choose to play your game the way you do. Other people pay the same money. I agree that jedi should be more powerful than combat profs and should be hard to take down. but a mediocre player should have a chance to compete. combat (just like crafting) should be based upon skill and what you have learned. NOT a higher baseline just because you choose to play a different way.
wrong. this is a rpg not a fps. advancement is based on time played not money payed. the more effort you put in the greater reward you get. rpg's have always been based on time=power and always will be. also jedi is not the only case where this happens. the more effort non jedi put in the greater material rewards the get. uber resources, uber grear, credits, and reward items. a weaponsmith that has been playing since launch and has invested hundereds of hours in acquiring resources, building a business, and establishing a reputation will have a huge advantage on one who didn't invest that time and effort.
but the time played would also teach the player to use their skills more effectively. you SKILL should be the determining factor in combat... not how long of a grind you did.
it's a role playing game. character skills are more important than player skills. character equipment is more important than the players pc and connection. button pushing is only as effective as the buttons you have to push. yes a person who has a better understanding of game mechanics will do better than a player who doesn't. account age means nothing, time invested means a lot.templates are only as effective as the people who play them. you fear this because you know you NEED that baseline to be successful. if you did have the skills im referring to... you would be rooting for this as it punsihes the ebayers and respecs
like you say yourself time PLAYED makes you more effective. part of determining time played is the prerequisites for mastering a profession. jedi has the highest requirements, thus jedi has the highest baseline power. that baseline, for all profs, can be increased by investing even more time in acquiring better quality gear.a jedi can also get better gear and equipment... so that argument is pointless. Why must other player's rely on skill because you chose to do a long grind? the jedi professions power should come from a more diverse skill set that allows a more skilled player more options. when used correctly, the jedi who can utilize tactics and their own skill should best every other profession.
all that the $15 a month you spend does is give you access to content, it is up to the player to decide how to use that access. you set your own goals and you reap your own rewards. if you choose a less difficult goal you earn a lesser reward. if you choose a more difficult goal you earn a greater reward.so you choice is worth more than mine... how egotistical of you. why should i be punished for not choosing what you choose?
drop the ego. becoming a jedi has nothing to do with needing a crutch. it's high level content designed for those who have already finished with many parts of the game. if a player chooses to pursue higher goals the player will receive higher rewards once they finish. those who don't choose to become jedi, hunt for uber loot, or harvest the best resources will not get the best rewards.
see the key word there? REWARDS, not punishment. there is no punishment aspect whatsoever, anyone who wants to become a jedi can. becoming a jedi is a reward for those who have chosen to play in an advanced system with more difficult requirements and a higher powerlevel( or it used to be, it's been phenominaly watered down over the past 2 years).
it's time based advancement and it's the nature of roleplaying games. if you can't accept that go spend your money elsewhere, i'd suggest a FPS where everyone hits the same start button and everyone is equal, i'm sure you could demonstrate your superior skills there without haveing to earn anything, which is apparently exactly what you want.