Jedi Archive
Thread: the thing that most people dont understand about saber damage....
However, comparing best case scenarios on sabers to average weapons and disimilar specials doesn't prove your assertion to me. How can a weapon with a MIN damage that is HIGHER than another weapons MAX do less damage? It's just not possible.
Message Edited by Don_T_Shoot on 08-31-2005 11:36 PM
KeeferKman wrote:
Lots of good information, very informative even to experienced players I think.
The problem with statistics and theories is that they don't always mean much in the "real world"
In the real world, what matters is how do you die, or loose. Well, barring Ganks, where its just a numbers game, you die in two ways:
1) You get outdamaged to quickly where you cannot heal it up - too much offense on you (i.e. a MLS against an ABroken Mdef)
2) The fight prolongs and your run out of mind or action or force
With the uber healing these days, number one is really a secondary way of dying. Most of the time now, you die by the second method.
So...in the "Real world" what matters most is SAC costs FC... Since Jedi are hindered by FC and elites arenot, that is a clear advantage in an "uber healing world". Second key variable: SAC costs....quite simple, an FWG5 can have SAC costs under 70, a saber barely under 100 (maybe 95?)...THIS IS HUGE !!! People think that the difference in SAC between 75 and 95 is not that significant WAY WRONG, IT IS HUGE...because with food/spice you can REGEN everything on a 75 sac pistol, while on a 95 sac saber you can not, much less a 100 to 110 saber.
I need not say more, the point it...
While your notions are many they don't add up to a penny (in the real world)
Tomake judgements on the strengthof Jedi by a simple comparison to another non-Jedi's weapons is a myopic way to look at the issue. The strength of Jedi is not that Jedi have stronger weapons (which they do, as the OP has pointed out), it is that Jedi is a well rounded profession that excels in every area of combat: Offense, Defense, and Healing. A Jedi is good at all three of these things, whereas a bounty hunter might excel in two of them, but fail miserable in a third. The current popular BH template (MBH+MCM) comes to mind ... it might be strong in healing, but it is mediocre in offense and weak in defense. The other popular BH template (MBH+MRifles) also comes to mind ... it might be strong in offense, but mediocre in healing and weak in defense.
OhBuggah wrote:
Tomake judgements on the strengthof Jedi by a simple comparison to another non-Jedi's weapons is a myopic way to look at the issue. The strength of Jedi is not that Jedi have stronger weapons (which they do, as the OP has pointed out), it is that Jedi is a well rounded profession that excels in every area of combat: Offense, Defense, and Healing. A Jedi is good at all three of these things, whereas a bounty hunter might excel in two of them, but fail miserable in a third. The current popular BH template (MBH+MCM) comes to mind ... it might be strong in healing, but it is mediocre in offense and weak in defense. The other popular BH template (MBH+MRifles) also comes to mind ... it might be strong in offense, but mediocre in healing and weak in defense.
Jedi are more powerful in every way ... but not too powerful as it should be to justify opening the floodgates and allowing anyone to easily be a Jedi. Since they are not too powerful, a non-Jedi with superior skill can overcome the Jedi advantage and defeat him. Whereas if two players with equal skill, a Jedi vs. non-Jedi, were to duel, the Jedi would always win due to the Jedi template and weapons being superior to all others.
There is a reason why all the hardcore PvP'ers flock to the Jedi profession: it's because they know that Jedi are more powerful than all.
I agree with your first sentence, but must disagree with the rest. First, if you'll read the responses, its rather obvious that the OP's method of "proving" the superiority of the lightsaber is flawed. Using the original posters method, I can 'prove' that 5 is bigger than 6 (5 * 2.5 > 6 *1.9). I know you're an intelligent person, so go back and reexamine the real statistics provided.
Miqmac wrote:
I was gonna start this with... No offense but.. Instead Im just gonna say straight out that offense is intended in this case. so what you are saying is that a saber can hold its own against a pistol. First of all I can create a new character on any server and in 2 days be qualified for any pistol out there. never mind that it took me 18 months of grinding to "unlock" and then 3 weeks of grinding to get an even half decent saber.
My saber should be able to slice any pistol weilding crybaby bh in half in uder a minute.
I wouldnt mind the damage at al if they reverted it to "saber" damage.
pathetic that the saber and pistol are even comparable never mind that its a close comparison. how about a proton rifle that anyone can acquire.
I realy would be happy if they created a whole new set of servers just for jedi. Gave us our power back and then allowed people to transfer to those servers only after accepting a disclaimer stating that jedi on this server are 10times as strong as any other elite or hybrid profession in the game and this is AS INTENDED by Mr. Lucas himself.
400-500 (125 element) saber vs: 500-1100 Advanced Laser Rifle
Hitting at min with saber throw: 400 x1.9 = 760 +125 element = 885
Hitting at min with critical shot: 960
Hitting at max with throw: 950 +125 = 1075
Hitting at max with crit shot: 2090
Looks to me that an unsliced, unpupped ALR destroys an average lightsaber, and does it from potentially 80 meters away. For fun, lets compare to a high-level saber.
Saber 600-700 (200 elemental)
Min w/throw: 1340
Max w/throw: 1530
That looks better and is probably about where the high-end average of lightsabers should be. Why only the average? Because other weapons have the capacity to be sliced and powerupped pushing their damage ranges even higher.
A low-average saber would should be 500-600.
And incredible saber should be 650-750.
you have oversimplified the numbaers ALOT here - the point is a weapon in pvp never hits anywhere near its max as its due to acc vs defence values - also the elemental isnt just added on and then treated as normal damage - take a look at the excell spreadsheet freely available from the forum link ive listed earlier
I messed around with the calculator and didnt see anything that hinted the simplified formula i used didn't work just as well.
Do the same tests, with saber throw instead of power attack, and you will see the errors of your initial tests.
By taking two different attacks with two different multipliers you didnt prove anything but Power Attack has a larger modifier.
As I said before, by choosing two different coefficients, I can prove that 5 is greater than 6, you must use the same damage coefficient if you want to determine anything of real value.
Message Edited by Xalya_Shadowalker on 08-31-2005 11:46 PM
jcesare wrote:
My alt is a Master Weaponsmith and I've been playing since launch so I too know a thing about how the game mechanics work.
Forget all the specials. Use the default attack on an empty lair so you get a consistant comparison.
As a MLS I do about 2.5k damage with my saber. With a laser rifle and NO RIFLE SKILLS i do over 4k damage.
No matter how you try and spin it, this means sabers are vastly underpowered and the CU is seriously messed up.
You are tailoring your tests to get desired results.
Figures don't lie, but liars can figure.
correct vs a low level target (a lair or a CL40 bol) regular weapons work much better than even a perfect saber - try the same test in PvP or vs a SBD and the saber wins.
Xalya_Shadowalker wrote:
I messed around with the calculator and didnt see anything that hinted the simplified formula i used didn't work just as well.
Do the same tests, with saber throw instead of power attack, and you will see the errors of your initial tests.
no probs ill do them this evening - ive not got the time atm - ill probably do a tabulated thing comparing rifles carbs sabers etc and a raft of specials
i tried to use the biggest damage specials from both professions here - and yes whilst the comparison isnt perfect it does give us some idea. The original poit was to educate people that max dam 500 isnt twice as bad as max dam 1000 which is what soo many people on this forums seem to think
I think you do have a point about why sabers as a whole aren't bad, despite the mins, lest you think I'm bashing you too much. You also do have to remember however, that while they both may be biggest damage specials, Power Attack has a windup which Crit Shot does not (and actually, I think Torso Shot has a higher modifer than Crit Shot). Nor is Power Attack a spammable attack like Crit Shot is, it was a bad choice for the same reason you wouldnt want to compare Saber Body Attack to Sniper Shot.
MasterSheep wrote:
Xalya_Shadowalker wrote:
I messed around with the calculator and didnt see anything that hinted the simplified formula i used didn't work just as well.
Do the same tests, with saber throw instead of power attack, and you will see the errors of your initial tests.
no probs ill do them this evening - ive not got the time atm - ill probably do a tabulated thing comparing rifles carbs sabers etc and a raft of specials
i tried to use the biggest damage specials from both professions here - and yes whilst the comparison isnt perfect it does give us some idea. The original poit was to educate people that max dam 500 isnt twice as bad as max dam 1000 which is what soo many people on this forums seem to think