Jedi Archive
Thread: 750 max damage lightsaber in action/My observation of current combat system.
Halae
Tue Oct 04, 2005 6:11 am
#66
MotorPsycho wrote:
HardwiredXMan wrote:
we may see CM/Doc's effectiveness change as fixing those issues will make jedi a bit better (faster mainly),
***NEWS FLASH***
this is exactly why your loosing to CM'S. A decent CM uses your flagrant spaming of specials against you. Most jedi toss out their high damage (and high SAC/foce cost) attacks as fast as they can. A good CM will then attack your regen rate and heal until you are out of SAC/MIND/FORCE. Then you are as good as dead.
A fight against a CM should be looked at as a marathon, as opposed to a sprint. CONSERVE YOUR POOLS. Time your high damage attacks for when the CM's pools (mainly mind) are low.
against a CM faster IS NOT BETTER. It is worse. all faster means is you burn SAC and Force faster.
A full (combat) temp jedi, who is using appropriate food/stims (not a support one) is better then any mundane proff that can be put together. Period. IF and that's a big IF you use the appropriate tactics.
No way, a smart jedi. /Tiphat
*edited by admin after cease and desist from the Retard's association of america on the grounds that portraying a mentally challenged person as a jedi was an attack on their intelligence *
HardwiredXMan
Tue Oct 04, 2005 6:50 am
#68
MotorPsycho wrote:
HardwiredXMan wrote:
we may see CM/Doc's effectiveness change as fixing those issues will make jedi a bit better (faster mainly),
***NEWS FLASH***
this is exactly why your loosing to CM'S. A decent CM uses your flagrant spaming of specials against you. Most jedi toss out their high damage (and high SAC/foce cost) attacks as fast as they can. A good CM will then attack your regen rate and heal until you are out of SAC/MIND/FORCE. Then you are as good as dead.
A fight against a CM should be looked at as a marathon, as opposed to a sprint. CONSERVE YOUR POOLS. Time your high damage attacks for when the CM's pools (mainly mind) are low.
against a CM faster IS NOT BETTER. It is worse. all faster means is you burn SAC and Force faster.
A full (combat) temp jedi, who is using appropriate food/stims (not a support one) is better then any mundane proff that can be put together. Period. IF and that's a big IF you use the appropriate tactics.
I didn't mean to emply that attacking faster is better vs a CM, overall, I was saying that if all the /bugs get fixed then noone can use the cooldown /bug to heal for 1500 every second. That slows down healing. Then jedi sabers speed would get faster and that means you would even do saber hit (lowest fc special) a bit faster, increasing your DPS. THen RD and MD getting fixed will change how much damage jedi and CM's take...the CM will take more damage or at least get hit moredue to not having high RD/MD.
So my whole statement about the /bugs was referring to this, not attacking anyone as fast as possible. I'm the most stretegic person that I can be and I will never make a statement against that mentality. Knowledge is power, more so than brute strength. A 5 year old little girl can dominate a 250 pound man if she knows how to do it. All she has to know is pressure points and size and strength makes no difference. Beleive me, hitting someone in the adams apple with an open hand will drop someone to their knees in seconds and is much more effective than hitting them in the nuts.....So I will never be so close minded to think that speed is best or damage is best.
I'm looking at it in an overall effect.....both get brought back to where they should be when bugs are fixed
siovhan
Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:10 am
#69
J4de wrote:
I would like to see a screenshot of your saber, really. My stats are 720'ish with 9fc and I have no problem with CMs with AB-sliced gear and great weapons while fully fooded. I have never once been unable to kill one of these bounty hunters, though I suppose if sone came after you while your HAM was down or your force was really low, it would be hard. But in an even contest (and that doesn't always happen) you should really win as a MLS with that saber...I know many who do not have that high of quality sabers and do just fine.
As for the argument, their healing does not really need a nerf. If we were to digress (please don't use big boy words unless you know the meaning. It makes you sound like a charlatan ) back and take their heals down at all, it would put them in a position where I doubt they would ever win a fair fight. Not saying all fights should be fair, but making it so that the only way a BH can get a win is by hoping their target is AFK, channeling, or low on HAM or force is kinda silly. Why should Jedi healing be balanced? We're not the same as normal professions. It's more like all of the disciplines in the Jedi world have very nice things which mirror their non-Jedi counterparts. Innate armor, armor break, good heals, melee/ranged defense mechanism (Aura), etc are all nice pieces of Jedi. You can't compare a single piece to a non-Jedi and so 'OMGZ, ours is worse than theirs.' Jedi are like a puzzle and you pick and choose things to complement each other to define your own role. A Master Defender/4xxx healer with at least 0404 Sabers becomes very hard for a ranged profession to defeat because of the strong defense and healing, the only downside is you are either going to be less varied in offense or you lack Enhancer, both weaknesses that can be exploited by whomever is attacking you.
You can't compare non-Jedi to Jedi skills all the time. If that were true, then we would have to give a non-Jedi profession the Avoid Incap ability because there is not one for them. And then perhaps they should have a force run ability (sans SL of course) that they can activate whenever they wish. See why you can't do this? Our healing is okay. If you find complements that make your gameplay work, then that's all you need. But honestly, with that kind of a saber, I find it impossible to believe that you are saying things like this.
combat medic and doc healing is more powerful than a jedi healing because they can heal nearly 3000 health points in 3 seconds. They have 2 commands to heal at their finger tips, jedi only have one (not counting stims for either class) Their timers should be the same as jedi at 4xxx. I would rather bring Jedi up to 2 sec heals, than take CM/Doc down to our current timers.
siovhan
Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:15 am
#71
Kesai wrote:
Zabba wrote:
My lightsaber has 750max damage, 11fc and 1.2 speed. So all the below data and experiances are with a saber of the stated stats.
I can safely say 750 max damage is almost has high as a jedi's lightsaber damage can go. There are better sabers than mine, but mine is considered top of the line and it is pre-CU. Now recently as all jedi already know, CMs/Doctors have been causing troubles with their unbalance healing and debuffs. However on the other side of the debate CMs claim they are fully balanced. So I'm taking this time to compare the 2 together. First of please do not compare a master CM with a full template jedi, because with having Master CM you still have enough skill points to spend on combat professions while a full template jedi is maxed on skill points. Lets compare a Rifleman/CM to the jedi skill trees. then they can't hunt you if they don't have MBH.
Master Healer vs Master CM/Master rifleman
Master healer is utterly broken don't use it as an excuse to nerf cm.
Jedi heals : Cost mind and force. Limited the jedi's ability to heal. Cool down timer 5-6secs, 1500 power of the heal. ( improved heal )
Combat Medicbacta shot: Only costs minds. With enhancers 1700 healing, cool down 2secs. Not having to worry about force limitations.
You are probably right here, mind needs to regen slower while in battle or something.
Combat Medic bacta spray : Only costs mind. With enhancers 1200-1300 healing power, cool down timer 2secs.
Jedi total heal : Massive force cost, completely heals a jedi, mind cost, cool down timer 6secs. Force and mind limitations.
Combat Medic action/mind debuff : only costs mind to use. Higher duration than imporved force and stronger debuff.
Jedi Improved force sap : 35% action debuff/30% mind debuff, duration only 60secs, costs both force and mind to use.
Combat medic combat speed debuff : jedi has no counter to this.
Force Speed, and the thyroid only needs to be nerfed to 25% like doc buffs
Combat medic DoT abilities : A jedi healer must take up master powers for any DoT damage.
Force choke - DOT
Combat medic's ability to wear armor therefore preventing their needs to take up defences or innate armor: jedi healer has no counter. They are forced to pick up force armor or defender.
This is true but with a MCM MBH temp they can't wear the 8k stuff so Mdef has much better defense. Mdef doesn't have "much better defense" any armor can be AB sliced Mdef and tkm cannot. So a mcm/mbh can wear a 7128 energy 75% AB resist armor. Not quite up to 8k but 75% Ab resist helps a lot.
Combat medics snare and paralyze : a jedi healer has no counter to this must take up enhancer trees for snares and roots.
That's not fair they took up CM for those like you took up enhancer for those. A BH loses massive speed and accuracy for picking that temp, loses the 8k armor, and the only good attacks he gets is critcal and torso. I agree, his arguement is weak here, he's trying to make jedi healer a jedi Combat healer I guess
Now as you see above a Master Combat medic is MUCH more efficiant than ANY jedi skill tree on its own. Now Combat Medics argue that well compare us to a full template jedi. Well folks, no we cant do that, we will compare a full template combat medic and their other combat abilities to a full template jedi. Now a Master Combat has more powerful debuffs, than a jedi, MUCH better healing than a jedi, much better armor than a jedi, Remember no 8k for MCM hehe much better DoTs than that of a jedi. Wastes massive ammounts of mind to get all to stickWhen they pick up fencer or rifleman or swordman on the side. A CM/MBH has not even enough room to pick up a nov melee profession Much better weapons than that of a jedi's lightsaber. Now someone with logical reasons explain to me how combat medics and doctors are not overpowered. I just did. Maybe less regen on mind thats basically all.
Non-jedi healing needs a nerf, ATLEAST a 6secs timer like that of a jedi. I think that instead more trees in Healer means faster heals that should beput inCM debuffs should be on pair with a jedi healer's debuffs not better but atleast equal. Not STRONGER !!!!PossiblyChanges are needed. With master lightaber/force speed 2/ and a saber with 1.2 speed/750 max damage I am unable to overcome a CM's armor/armor break slice/all the healing + stim packs/debuffs/ their much stronger weapons depending on their combat templates...I agree that armor break slices are MUCH too strong, but I have a 675 saber at like 1.4 with force speed 2 and I beat most BH/CM's you just have to hit hard and fast if they try to cm you while that happens they will not be able to heal and even if they get all the stats on you their minds at half..I mean I dont even come close to an incap. The CM or doctor will just stand in one spot and spam heals until the jedi is out of force. Mind and action regen very fast Ya mind regens too fast with all the buffs and spices around so they don't have to worry about running out skill meters such as action and mind.
Simply I don't think anyone can argue and say non-jedi healing and CM debuffs need a nerf.
Message Edited by Kesai on 10-03-2005 03:56 PM
BukuJohnson
Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:20 am
#72
The point is for sp's invested jedi can have alot of very neat abilities on a per sp investment where as to even get an elite profession novice box u must have expended 49SP's(55 for cm) without any gaining any actual good abilities.
Jedi's strenght's lie in their easy ability to dabble stop comparing everything directly as hell i would love 1500 heals at the cost of 28sp's leaving me the ability to do alot more with my template.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
This is an interesting point of view, as we see it in a completely opposite way. The fact that "Jedi Have To Dabble" is what has weakened us as a profession. (As a side note see my previous post in this thread regarding sp costs for access to skills).
Jedi MUST dabble in Enhancer in order to have access to any force management, something that has become a real negative for us post CU as our specials draw from all four pools. Non Jedi only need worry about 3 pools we must worry about 4.
Jedi Must dabble in healer for healing and state recovery if they intend to match the skills of non Jedi (I think most would agree that state recoveries are currently discretionary but any player with no healing is at a serious disadvantage).
Jedi Must dabble in Defender for any melee/ranged defenses or innate armor.
Jedi must dabble in Saber and or take all of Powers in order to have offensive abilities. (dabbling in Powers as your only offense is suicide)
The fact is that Non Jedi do not need to dabble outside of a 2.5 tree template to gain state recoveries, armor certs, offensive specials, weapon certs, and defenses. By matching any two combat masteries, and then adding healing you gain everything you need.
The "neat abilities" argument has less and less value in any discussion of balance as the majority of our skills have either been watered down or shared with the non jedi professions..
Stealth skills will now be available to two non Jedi professions.
Non Jedi will have a means of exposing stealthed players, Jedi will not.
Stealth will have a force cost for Jedi, but obviously not for non Jedi.
Stealth is a first strike facilitator, but BH will always get 1st strike vs Jedi even if the Jedi has stealth and the BH does not.
Cloak will have a snare effect to "balance" it with the non Jedi versions of Stealth even tho it is a mind trick and not an actual attempt at being quiet.
Healing skills for Jedi are all on the same cool down timer.
Healing for Jedi is less effective than non Jedi healing, with no options to improve effectiveness.
Healing has a force cost for Jedi, obviously there is none for a non Jedi.
There are no foods or clothes/SEA, or droids to enhance Jedi healing abilities.
State recovery has a force cost for Jedi, obviously there is none for a non Jedi.
Innate ranged and melee defenses can be achieved in similar values for both Jedi and non Jedi.
Non Jedi have armor break resistance. Jedi do not.
Non Jedi have access to higher damage mitigation without expending additional sp. (health enhanced primus layered armor)
Non Jedi weapons can be sliced.
Non Jedi weapons can use power ups.
Non Jedi weapons do not have a force cost.
Mez/Daze effects can be obtained by non Jedi through out the Smuggler, CM, Pistoleer, Commando (grenades), and BH trees. The only Mez/Daze skill in Jedi is in the Master Enhancer box.
DOT can be obtained by Non Jedi in several rows of the CM tree. The only DOT in Jedi is in the Master Powers box.
The Non Jedi has the ability to "Stack" DOT, and "Chain" Mez/Daze effects.
Self buffs can be obtained by Non Jedi in the Doc tree. Self buffs are not available to Jedi.
Debuff skills are stronger for Non Jedi than Jedi.
Roots/Snares are available to Non Jedi in the Pistoleer, BH, Carbineer, Rifleman, Commando (grenades), CM, Fencer, and Pikeman trees. Jedi has two snares one in Powers and one in Enhancer, and one root in Enhancer.
The Non Jedi has the ability to "Stack" Snares, and "Chain" Roots.
The vast majority of high and mid damage specials for Non Jedi do not have a warm up timer.
As I see it the only 2 unique skills that Jedi now have are Force Run and Avoid Incap and these two skills have had severe penalties placed on them. AI has an extremely large Force Cost (1000) plus a debilitating snare and FR2/FR3 both reduce damage to 5% of normal.
Aura is better than COB or Duelist Stance but I even that is debateble since Jedi must spend force as well as HAM, and Non Jedi obviously do not.
Finally when comparing Jedi to non Jedi take a look at the number of hours spent to unlock and finish a Jedi template, compare the dificulty of obtaining a quality Jedi weapon to that of a non Jedi weapon, compare the effect of visibility on content options, compare XP loss and the potential for potential negative XP.
I am tired of all the non Jedi that cliam Jedi do not have enough "risk" when the simple fact is that they now have the same rewards that we do and their rewards come after one week of grinding with no risk ever.I think that if they are going to keep Jedi as a watered down version of it's former self, then they need to get rid of any and all additional risk or effort required to become or play a Jedi toon. I wonder how many of them would want us to be equal if it meant they would lose the Player Bounty system.
Buku
Naritus
Jedi's strenght's lie in their easy ability to dabble stop comparing everything directly as hell i would love 1500 heals at the cost of 28sp's leaving me the ability to do alot more with my template.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
This is an interesting point of view, as we see it in a completely opposite way. The fact that "Jedi Have To Dabble" is what has weakened us as a profession. (As a side note see my previous post in this thread regarding sp costs for access to skills).
Jedi MUST dabble in Enhancer in order to have access to any force management, something that has become a real negative for us post CU as our specials draw from all four pools. Non Jedi only need worry about 3 pools we must worry about 4.
Jedi Must dabble in healer for healing and state recovery if they intend to match the skills of non Jedi (I think most would agree that state recoveries are currently discretionary but any player with no healing is at a serious disadvantage).
Jedi Must dabble in Defender for any melee/ranged defenses or innate armor.
Jedi must dabble in Saber and or take all of Powers in order to have offensive abilities. (dabbling in Powers as your only offense is suicide)
The fact is that Non Jedi do not need to dabble outside of a 2.5 tree template to gain state recoveries, armor certs, offensive specials, weapon certs, and defenses. By matching any two combat masteries, and then adding healing you gain everything you need.
The "neat abilities" argument has less and less value in any discussion of balance as the majority of our skills have either been watered down or shared with the non jedi professions..
Stealth skills will now be available to two non Jedi professions.
Non Jedi will have a means of exposing stealthed players, Jedi will not.
Stealth will have a force cost for Jedi, but obviously not for non Jedi.
Stealth is a first strike facilitator, but BH will always get 1st strike vs Jedi even if the Jedi has stealth and the BH does not.
Cloak will have a snare effect to "balance" it with the non Jedi versions of Stealth even tho it is a mind trick and not an actual attempt at being quiet.
Healing skills for Jedi are all on the same cool down timer.
Healing for Jedi is less effective than non Jedi healing, with no options to improve effectiveness.
Healing has a force cost for Jedi, obviously there is none for a non Jedi.
There are no foods or clothes/SEA, or droids to enhance Jedi healing abilities.
State recovery has a force cost for Jedi, obviously there is none for a non Jedi.
Innate ranged and melee defenses can be achieved in similar values for both Jedi and non Jedi.
Non Jedi have armor break resistance. Jedi do not.
Non Jedi have access to higher damage mitigation without expending additional sp. (health enhanced primus layered armor)
Non Jedi weapons can be sliced.
Non Jedi weapons can use power ups.
Non Jedi weapons do not have a force cost.
Mez/Daze effects can be obtained by non Jedi through out the Smuggler, CM, Pistoleer, Commando (grenades), and BH trees. The only Mez/Daze skill in Jedi is in the Master Enhancer box.
DOT can be obtained by Non Jedi in several rows of the CM tree. The only DOT in Jedi is in the Master Powers box.
The Non Jedi has the ability to "Stack" DOT, and "Chain" Mez/Daze effects.
Self buffs can be obtained by Non Jedi in the Doc tree. Self buffs are not available to Jedi.
Debuff skills are stronger for Non Jedi than Jedi.
Roots/Snares are available to Non Jedi in the Pistoleer, BH, Carbineer, Rifleman, Commando (grenades), CM, Fencer, and Pikeman trees. Jedi has two snares one in Powers and one in Enhancer, and one root in Enhancer.
The Non Jedi has the ability to "Stack" Snares, and "Chain" Roots.
The vast majority of high and mid damage specials for Non Jedi do not have a warm up timer.
As I see it the only 2 unique skills that Jedi now have are Force Run and Avoid Incap and these two skills have had severe penalties placed on them. AI has an extremely large Force Cost (1000) plus a debilitating snare and FR2/FR3 both reduce damage to 5% of normal.
Aura is better than COB or Duelist Stance but I even that is debateble since Jedi must spend force as well as HAM, and Non Jedi obviously do not.
Finally when comparing Jedi to non Jedi take a look at the number of hours spent to unlock and finish a Jedi template, compare the dificulty of obtaining a quality Jedi weapon to that of a non Jedi weapon, compare the effect of visibility on content options, compare XP loss and the potential for potential negative XP.
I am tired of all the non Jedi that cliam Jedi do not have enough "risk" when the simple fact is that they now have the same rewards that we do and their rewards come after one week of grinding with no risk ever.I think that if they are going to keep Jedi as a watered down version of it's former self, then they need to get rid of any and all additional risk or effort required to become or play a Jedi toon. I wonder how many of them would want us to be equal if it meant they would lose the Player Bounty system.
Buku
Naritus
BukuJohnson
Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:27 am
#73
but the point is ignore the 24 sp's if you want to be picky you can go and 226/24 and work out how much each extra FS box cost's your template, oh and on the novice issue, it's actually marksman/scout/medic which is 45 and i don't see how u get so many novice boxes needed for jedi, a dual mastery template(most common) has 3 novice boxes (24pt's) compared to 45.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
The origianl poster has repeatedly stated that his observation is not regarding a BH/CM.
The reason BH/CM is not the issue is because of the additional SP requirement that are required of a Hybrid template (Smuggler, BH, Commando).
FYI a dual mastery template is no longer the most common for Jedi. Since the changes to our armor, healing, and increased reliance on force the majority of Jedi now have 4 novice boxes in their templates.
Buku
Naritus
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
The origianl poster has repeatedly stated that his observation is not regarding a BH/CM.
The reason BH/CM is not the issue is because of the additional SP requirement that are required of a Hybrid template (Smuggler, BH, Commando).
FYI a dual mastery template is no longer the most common for Jedi. Since the changes to our armor, healing, and increased reliance on force the majority of Jedi now have 4 novice boxes in their templates.
Buku
Naritus
iskareot
Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:40 am
#74
BukuJohnson wrote:
The point is for sp's invested jedi can have alot of very neat abilities on a per sp investment where as to even get an elite profession novice box u must have expended 49SP's(55 for cm) without any gaining any actual good abilities.
Jedi's strenght's lie in their easy ability to dabble stop comparing everything directly as hell i would love 1500 heals at the cost of 28sp's leaving me the ability to do alot more with my template.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
This is an interesting point of view, as we see it in a completely opposite way. The fact that "Jedi Have To Dabble" is what has weakened us as a profession. (As a side note see my previous post in this thread regarding sp costs for access to skills).
Jedi MUST dabble in Enhancer in order to have access to any force management, something that has become a real negative for us post CU as our specials draw from all four pools. Non Jedi only need worry about 3 pools we must worry about 4.
Jedi Must dabble in healer for healing and state recovery if they intend to match the skills of non Jedi (I think most would agree that state recoveries are currently discretionary but any player with no healing is at a serious disadvantage).
Jedi Must dabble in Defender for any melee/ranged defenses or innate armor.
Jedi must dabble in Saber and or take all of Powers in order to have offensive abilities. (dabbling in Powers as your only offense is suicide)
The fact is that Non Jedi do not need to dabble outside of a 2.5 tree template to gain state recoveries, armor certs, offensive specials, weapon certs, and defenses. By matching any two combat masteries, and then adding healing you gain everything you need.
The "neat abilities" argument has less and less value in any discussion of balance as the majority of our skills have either been watered down or shared with the non jedi professions..
Stealth skills will now be available to two non Jedi professions.
Non Jedi will have a means of exposing stealthed players, Jedi will not.
Stealth will have a force cost for Jedi, but obviously not for non Jedi.
Stealth is a first strike facilitator, but BH will always get 1st strike vs Jedi even if the Jedi has stealth and the BH does not.
Cloak will have a snare effect to "balance" it with the non Jedi versions of Stealth even tho it is a mind trick and not an actual attempt at being quiet.
Healing skills for Jedi are all on the same cool down timer.
Healing for Jedi is less effective than non Jedi healing, with no options to improve effectiveness.
Healing has a force cost for Jedi, obviously there is none for a non Jedi.
There are no foods or clothes/SEA, or droids to enhance Jedi healing abilities.
State recovery has a force cost for Jedi, obviously there is none for a non Jedi.
Innate ranged and melee defenses can be achieved in similar values for both Jedi and non Jedi.
Non Jedi have armor break resistance. Jedi do not.
Non Jedi have access to higher damage mitigation without expending additional sp. (health enhanced primus layered armor)
Non Jedi weapons can be sliced.
Non Jedi weapons can use power ups.
Non Jedi weapons do not have a force cost.
Mez/Daze effects can be obtained by non Jedi through out the Smuggler, CM, Pistoleer, Commando (grenades), and BH trees. The only Mez/Daze skill in Jedi is in the Master Enhancer box.
DOT can be obtained by Non Jedi in several rows of the CM tree. The only DOT in Jedi is in the Master Powers box.
The Non Jedi has the ability to "Stack" DOT, and "Chain" Mez/Daze effects.
Self buffs can be obtained by Non Jedi in the Doc tree. Self buffs are not available to Jedi.
Debuff skills are stronger for Non Jedi than Jedi.
Roots/Snares are available to Non Jedi in the Pistoleer, BH, Carbineer, Rifleman, Commando (grenades), CM, Fencer, and Pikeman trees. Jedi has two snares one in Powers and one in Enhancer, and one root in Enhancer.
The Non Jedi has the ability to "Stack" Snares, and "Chain" Roots.
The vast majority of high and mid damage specials for Non Jedi do not have a warm up timer.
As I see it the only 2 unique skills that Jedi now have are Force Run and Avoid Incap and these two skills have had severe penalties placed on them. AI has an extremely large Force Cost (1000) plus a debilitating snare and FR2/FR3 both reduce damage to 5% of normal.
Aura is better than COB or Duelist Stance but I even that is debateble since Jedi must spend force as well as HAM, and Non Jedi obviously do not.
Finally when comparing Jedi to non Jedi take a look at the number of hours spent to unlock and finish a Jedi template, compare the dificulty of obtaining a quality Jedi weapon to that of a non Jedi weapon, compare the effect of visibility on content options, compare XP loss and the potential for potential negative XP.
I am tired of all the non Jedi that cliam Jedi do not have enough "risk" when the simple fact is that they now have the same rewards that we do and their rewards come after one week of grinding with no risk ever.I think that if they are going to keep Jedi as a watered down version of it's former self, then they need to get rid of any and all additional risk or effort required to become or play a Jedi toon. I wonder how many of them would want us to be equal if it meant they would lose the Player Bounty system.
Buku
Naritus
What freaking Buku said... hands down there is the facts and people can see them.
What is sad is that its come to this... I read that and just think, wow its amazing that I can live in most of my one vs one fights.
AvataroftheSith
Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:45 am
#75
BukuJohnson wrote:
The point is for sp's invested jedi can have alot of very neat abilities on a per sp investment where as to even get an elite profession novice box u must have expended 49SP's(55 for cm) without any gaining any actual good abilities.
Jedi's strenght's lie in their easy ability to dabble stop comparing everything directly as hell i would love 1500 heals at the cost of 28sp's leaving me the ability to do alot more with my template.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
This is an interesting point of view, as we see it in a completely opposite way. The fact that "Jedi Have To Dabble" is what has weakened us as a profession. (As a side note see my previous post in this thread regarding sp costs for access to skills).
Jedi MUST dabble in Enhancer in order to have access to any force management, something that has become a real negative for us post CU as our specials draw from all four pools. Non Jedi only need worry about 3 pools we must worry about 4.
Jedi Must dabble in healer for healing and state recovery if they intend to match the skills of non Jedi (I think most would agree that state recoveries are currently discretionary but any player with no healing is at a serious disadvantage).
Jedi Must dabble in Defender for any melee/ranged defenses or innate armor.
Jedi must dabble in Saber and or take all of Powers in order to have offensive abilities. (dabbling in Powers as your only offense is suicide)
The fact is that Non Jedi do not need to dabble outside of a 2.5 tree template to gain state recoveries, armor certs, offensive specials, weapon certs, and defenses. By matching any two combat masteries, and then adding healing you gain everything you need.
The "neat abilities" argument has less and less value in any discussion of balance as the majority of our skills have either been watered down or shared with the non jedi professions..
Stealth skills will now be available to two non Jedi professions.
Non Jedi will have a means of exposing stealthed players, Jedi will not.
Stealth will have a force cost for Jedi, but obviously not for non Jedi.
Stealth is a first strike facilitator, but BH will always get 1st strike vs Jedi even if the Jedi has stealth and the BH does not.
Cloak will have a snare effect to "balance" it with the non Jedi versions of Stealth even tho it is a mind trick and not an actual attempt at being quiet.
Healing skills for Jedi are all on the same cool down timer.
Healing for Jedi is less effective than non Jedi healing, with no options to improve effectiveness.
Healing has a force cost for Jedi, obviously there is none for a non Jedi.
There are no foods or clothes/SEA, or droids to enhance Jedi healing abilities.
State recovery has a force cost for Jedi, obviously there is none for a non Jedi.
Innate ranged and melee defenses can be achieved in similar values for both Jedi and non Jedi.
Non Jedi have armor break resistance. Jedi do not.
Non Jedi have access to higher damage mitigation without expending additional sp. (health enhanced primus layered armor)
Non Jedi weapons can be sliced.
Non Jedi weapons can use power ups.
Non Jedi weapons do not have a force cost.
Mez/Daze effects can be obtained by non Jedi through out the Smuggler, CM, Pistoleer, Commando (grenades), and BH trees. The only Mez/Daze skill in Jedi is in the Master Enhancer box.
DOT can be obtained by Non Jedi in several rows of the CM tree. The only DOT in Jedi is in the Master Powers box.
The Non Jedi has the ability to "Stack" DOT, and "Chain" Mez/Daze effects.
Self buffs can be obtained by Non Jedi in the Doc tree. Self buffs are not available to Jedi.
Debuff skills are stronger for Non Jedi than Jedi.
Roots/Snares are available to Non Jedi in the Pistoleer, BH, Carbineer, Rifleman, Commando (grenades), CM, Fencer, and Pikeman trees. Jedi has two snares one in Powers and one in Enhancer, and one root in Enhancer.
The Non Jedi has the ability to "Stack" Snares, and "Chain" Roots.
The vast majority of high and mid damage specials for Non Jedi do not have a warm up timer.
As I see it the only 2 unique skills that Jedi now have are Force Run and Avoid Incap and these two skills have had severe penalties placed on them. AI has an extremely large Force Cost (1000) plus a debilitating snare and FR2/FR3 both reduce damage to 5% of normal.
Aura is better than COB or Duelist Stance but I even that is debateble since Jedi must spend force as well as HAM, and Non Jedi obviously do not.
Finally when comparing Jedi to non Jedi take a look at the number of hours spent to unlock and finish a Jedi template, compare the dificulty of obtaining a quality Jedi weapon to that of a non Jedi weapon, compare the effect of visibility on content options, compare XP loss and the potential for potential negative XP.
I am tired of all the non Jedi that cliam Jedi do not have enough "risk" when the simple fact is that they now have the same rewards that we do and their rewards come after one week of grinding with no risk ever.I think that if they are going to keep Jedi as a watered down version of it's former self, then they need to get rid of any and all additional risk or effort required to become or play a Jedi toon. I wonder how many of them would want us to be equal if it meant they would lose the Player Bounty system.
Buku
Naritus
This post is awesome.
WookieOgre
Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:45 am
#76
destrkta wrote:
Jedi's strenght's lie in their easy ability to dabble stop comparing everything directly as hell i would love 1500 heals at the cost of 28sp's leaving me the ability to do alot more with my template.
You do realize it's also our biggest weakness. I see a lot of Jedi say they hate to spend 89 skill points just to get armor like every non-Jedi. Maybe when picking up TK is a requirement for non-Jedi to aquire armor you can complain about a Jedi's gimped healing.
Oh btw, for 29 sp you can get extremely close to 1500 as long as you use a droid....funny how you didn't mention that lol.
HardwiredXMan
Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:46 am
#77
BukuJohnson wrote:
The point is for sp's invested jedi can have alot of very neat abilities on a per sp investment where as to even get an elite profession novice box u must have expended 49SP's(55 for cm) without any gaining any actual good abilities.
Jedi's strenght's lie in their easy ability to dabble stop comparing everything directly as hell i would love 1500 heals at the cost of 28sp's leaving me the ability to do alot more with my template.
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This is an interesting point of view, as we see it in a completely opposite way. The fact that "Jedi Have To Dabble" is what has weakened us as a profession. (As a side note see my previous post in this thread regarding sp costs for access to skills).
Jedi MUST dabble in Enhancer in order to have access to any force management, something that has become a real negative for us post CU as our specials draw from all four pools. Non Jedi only need worry about 3 pools we must worry about 4.
Jedi Must dabble in healer for healing and state recovery if they intend to match the skills of non Jedi (I think most would agree that state recoveries are currently discretionary but any player with no healing is at a serious disadvantage).
Jedi Must dabble in Defender for any melee/ranged defenses or innate armor.
Jedi must dabble in Saber and or take all of Powers in order to have offensive abilities. (dabbling in Powers as your only offense is suicide)
The fact is that Non Jedi do not need to dabble outside of a 2.5 tree template to gain state recoveries, armor certs, offensive specials, weapon certs, and defenses. By matching any two combat masteries, and then adding healing you gain everything you need.
The "neat abilities" argument has less and less value in any discussion of balance as the majority of our skills have either been watered down or shared with the non jedi professions..
Stealth skills will now be available to two non Jedi professions.
Non Jedi will have a means of exposing stealthed players, Jedi will not.
Stealth will have a force cost for Jedi, but obviously not for non Jedi.
Stealth is a first strike facilitator, but BH will always get 1st strike vs Jedi even if the Jedi has stealth and the BH does not.
Cloak will have a snare effect to "balance" it with the non Jedi versions of Stealth even tho it is a mind trick and not an actual attempt at being quiet.
Healing skills for Jedi are all on the same cool down timer.
Healing for Jedi is less effective than non Jedi healing, with no options to improve effectiveness.
Healing has a force cost for Jedi, obviously there is none for a non Jedi.
There are no foods or clothes/SEA, or droids to enhance Jedi healing abilities.
State recovery has a force cost for Jedi, obviously there is none for a non Jedi.
Innate ranged and melee defenses can be achieved in similar values for both Jedi and non Jedi.
Non Jedi have armor break resistance. Jedi do not.
Non Jedi have access to higher damage mitigation without expending additional sp. (health enhanced primus layered armor)
Non Jedi weapons can be sliced.
Non Jedi weapons can use power ups.
Non Jedi weapons do not have a force cost.
Mez/Daze effects can be obtained by non Jedi through out the Smuggler, CM, Pistoleer, Commando (grenades), and BH trees. The only Mez/Daze skill in Jedi is in the Master Enhancer box.
DOT can be obtained by Non Jedi in several rows of the CM tree. The only DOT in Jedi is in the Master Powers box.
The Non Jedi has the ability to "Stack" DOT, and "Chain" Mez/Daze effects.
Self buffs can be obtained by Non Jedi in the Doc tree. Self buffs are not available to Jedi.
Debuff skills are stronger for Non Jedi than Jedi.
Roots/Snares are available to Non Jedi in the Pistoleer, BH, Carbineer, Rifleman, Commando (grenades), CM, Fencer, and Pikeman trees. Jedi has two snares one in Powers and one in Enhancer, and one root in Enhancer.
The Non Jedi has the ability to "Stack" Snares, and "Chain" Roots.
The vast majority of high and mid damage specials for Non Jedi do not have a warm up timer.
As I see it the only 2 unique skills that Jedi now have are Force Run and Avoid Incap and these two skills have had severe penalties placed on them. AI has an extremely large Force Cost (1000) plus a debilitating snare and FR2/FR3 both reduce damage to 5% of normal.
Aura is better than COB or Duelist Stance but I even that is debateble since Jedi must spend force as well as HAM, and Non Jedi obviously do not.
Finally when comparing Jedi to non Jedi take a look at the number of hours spent to unlock and finish a Jedi template, compare the dificulty of obtaining a quality Jedi weapon to that of a non Jedi weapon, compare the effect of visibility on content options, compare XP loss and the potential for potential negative XP.
I am tired of all the non Jedi that cliam Jedi do not have enough "risk" when the simple fact is that they now have the same rewards that we do and their rewards come after one week of grinding with no risk ever.I think that if they are going to keep Jedi as a watered down version of it's former self, then they need to get rid of any and all additional risk or effort required to become or play a Jedi toon. I wonder how many of them would want us to be equal if it meant they would lose the Player Bounty system.
Buku
Naritus
Now that is a pretty strong argument there.From the looks of this post, it seems that jedi really are nothing more than a normal profession with pretty colors and lights surrounding their skills and the blinding name of jedi, which when mentioned people tend to automatically think of it as beign much more powerful given that the force is a legendary ability that is supposed to enhance the normal being to a status that is feared by nearly everyone in the galaxy besides others whom have the same abilities or those with no fear of anything (BH's and most smugglers).
The more and more I look at jedi in this game after Cu, the more and more I start to believe that the path to jedi should be scrapped and jedi should be just a normal profession just like every other profession becuase right now, the only thing that makes jedi any different than a normal profession is the path you need to walk to become a jedi and the fact that you use the force, oh and also that you have the ability to have many more abilities in one template than normal professions. In come cases, normal professions have to dabble in 3 or more professions to get everything one jedi template can have. Everything else is the exact same though. There has never been any risk to jedi in my eyes since permadeath and skill loss was taken out of the game and there has never been any risk to normal professions......yet they are as powerful as jedi. As I see it, jedi are powerful in pvp, non-jedi are more powerful in PVE (mainly ranged professions) and they are equally powerful in PVP. It's sad to say, but regardles to what any of us believe, if jedi are to be what lucas made them to be and represent them as such in this game, then either jedi will have to be improved with high risk added again or non-jedi must be weakened a bit......the alternative to either of those is to simply make jedi a normal profession and therefore justify non-jedi professions being equal in power for less effort.