Jedi Archive
Thread: 750 max damage lightsaber in action/My observation of current combat system.
non jedi healing takes up a hell of a lot more sp's than jedi. Jedi can have force run to catch running jedi, force speed is a counter to speed debuff (debuff really needs to be -25 instead of -40 but that's another issue)
The point is for sp's invested jedi can have alot of very neat abilities on a per sp investment where as to even get an elite profession novice box u must have expended 49SP's(55 for cm)without any gaining any actual good abilities.
Jedi's strenght's lie in their easy ability to dabble stop comparing everything directly as hell i would love 1500 heals at the cost of 28sp's leaving me the ability to do alot more with my template.
I think the saber speed /bugs, cooldown /bug and the RD/MD /bug make a big difference also. Should those get fixed, we may see CM/Doc's effectiveness change as fixing those issues will make jedi a bit better (faster mainly), but still fixing those will also make non-jedi professions a bit better too.
As far a one person saying they have no problem with BH/CM's or others saying they do, that is a non-issue as you all are not fighting the same opponents and combat situations differ. So just because player A has no problem vs CM's, doesn't mean everything is balanced. Vice versa, just because PLayer B can't defeat a well prepared CM doesn't mean anything needs to be nerfed. I think when you have half of the jedi population saying they are having a tough time vs CM's and the other half saying they have no problems....then I tend to believe things are balanced more so than not.
What would show that CM or doc is unbalanced is when every player with the exact same CM or Doc template continuously defeats jedi over and over regardless of who the jedi is. Or at least force a draw but the CM or Doc template never loses. If that happens often, then I would say their is a balance issue going on. HOwever, the fact that no one template can consistantly defeat all types of jedi, tells me the system is closer to balanced than not.
WE have to remember, the issue is about the person your fighting, not the template because a very skilled and knowledgeable PVPer can take just about any template and give a jedi a run for their money. So If a MBH/Rifleman can slaughter certain jedi templates all day everyday, does that mean MBH/Rifleman templates are overpowered. NOt at all.
When comparing each ability to each other, sure you will see some balance issues but the big picture is not how one ability of CM or Doc is better than one ability of Healer.You will never see a 100% jedi healer facing off vs a 100% CM or DOC. What you will have is both players will have a combination of skills that can and should counter each other in some way....some stronger than others.
The thing I constantly see in the jedi forums is every discipline wants their tree to be the best in the game over other professions. if defender was the best defensive tree, if enhancer was the best utility tree, if healer was the best healer tree, if powers and sabers were the best damage trees in the game.....what you will end up having is that no non-jedi template can beat a jedi period. So in order to keep the balance, non-jedi templates need to have a few skills that are equal to or slightly better than some of jedi skills.As a whole, jedi are better hands down. It's the combination of how you use your skills rather than how good an individual skill is vs a CM or Docs individual skill.
About the only major issue I see with this thread is that given the situation the OP stated, the fight would simply be a draw and last well over 30 minutes. That's the issue I have problems with. WE shouldn't have to fight it out for 30 mins vs one player to see who wins.1-vs-1 pvp combat between to well skilled players simply can never have a winner. Either they both give in and call it a draw or one of them runs (basically a forfeit in my eyes). Its the classic yoda vs palpatine situation....neither can win so one runs and vows never to fight again (yoda 
).
When I look at jedi healing, I don't see it being a main ability that a jedi "should" rely on. However, the devs have made jedi to the point were if you don't take defender or 0400 enhancer, you have absolutely no defense and that forces jedi to rely on 4000 healer or master healer for 100% defense to every non-jedi attack in the game. While at the same time, no matter what combination of non-jedi professions you choose, you will always have high defense, good speed, great damage, massive healing, good armor and many other utility abilities that complement any ability from any tree. All normal professions trees can be combined with any other tree and it will complement each other and make the player stronger overall.
Jedi don't have such a luxury and I think that is one of the main reason's jedi wish to have each of their trees be stronger in comparison to normal professions single trees.
To be honest, If the devs improved the healer tree to either heal faster,no force costor have multiple heals like CM or Doc, it will only make 20 min fights last an hour or more. All it would do is allow the jedi to fight longer and not have to run...but if you get down to the point where it's a healing battle then it's not even worth fighting and it should never come to who can heal the most or fastest.
In my opinion, all healing (including jedi healer) should be reduced or all damage for "all professions" should be increased. THe reason I say this is because no healing should be higher than the damage any profession can do overall, unless you have a novice tree or are an incomplete jedi template. When you can just sit there and heal the total damage that one throws at you and not worry about dying, that tells me healing is too strong overall or damage or speed is to low or slow overall.
Healing should be a utility that helps you last a little longer than usual, not an ability that allows you to last indefinitely. YOu should never be able to simply heal yourself over and over and never worry about being incapped, pvp or pve. DAmage should always be higher than total healing. This both makes healing what it's supposed to be, a support ability. Right now, healing is a complete defense against nearly any template regardless of how strong the damage is. When you compound the strength of healing with the foods, drinks, spices, doc/jedi buffs.....you strengthen healing even more as an effective defense. HOnestly, one does not even need RD/MD or armor at all with the current power of healing....having those just makes it that much easier to use healing as a primary defense. I'm sure we all can agree, no matter what profession you are, that healing should never be a means of primary defense. Healing should be a short term counter to damage taken to allow you to last a bit longer than usual or recover from near death long enough to give you the smallest chance to turn the tables and possibly win, or better yet to escape the battle. When your opponent has to run from the battle because they cannot out damage your healing and they have the most powerful weapon their profession will allow them to have, then I'm sorry, that healing ability needs to be reduced somehow or that offense of the opponent needs a boost.
So with that said, there defeinitely is some issues with healing only in the sense that CM and Doc combined with any other profession makes that template domanent over every other template combination and that should not be the case. It's should be rock, paper scissors and right now, CM and DOC is rock and paper while jedi is the scissors. THis means CM or doc templates will crush any template that does not have CM or Doc...that includes a template with 0440 medic as well.The main reason is that mostly for CM, their abilities allow them to do the job of an enhancer, healer and powers jedi all in one template while still having points left over to get a combat profession to have almost the same power as a defender or saber jedi. That is the underlying issue that shows that CM is overpowered a bit. I think CM has too many abilities in one master for the skill points needed. My point on the cm effectiveness is that it takes a jedi to have master enhancer, master healer and master powers to have the exact same effect as a single master CM....since jedi can't have triple masters, you can see how powerful CM alone is. CM clearly is the most powerful profession in the game when combined with other templates. The proof is there, 90% of all normal templates include DOC or CM because healing is the best defense in the game hands down and it shouldn't be that way. The gap between amount of damage dealt and the amount of damage healed should widen a bit more, then and only then will the balance be totally there....it's close, but not quite in my opinion.
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This is a common misperception.
First off it is 24 sp not 26, now on to the important part.
The minimum number of novice discipline boxes a finished template Jedi can have is 3.
The maximum number of novice discipline boxes a finished template Jedi can have is 5.
The average number of novice discipline boxes a finished template Jedi has is 4 due to all defenses being in one discipline, all healing being in one discipline, all enhacements being in one discipline, and offense being available in the last two disciplines.
Each novice discipline box has a cost of 8 sp, 8 x 4 boxes is 32 sp. Now add 24 sp for the FS lines to the 32 sp from the novice boxes, result is 56 sp.
The average double elite non Jedi template has 15sp on one novice box (such as marksman or brawler) one novice box 15sp for healing, and then three elite novice profession boxes at 6 sp each. The total cost on novice boxes for a non Jedi double elite is 48 sp.
There is also the fact that the 24 sp offer very little in the way of mods, and offer zero skills or specials. I see no Jedi advantage in this set up for you to claim.
Buku
Naritus
Message Edited by destrkta on 10-04-2005 11:41 PM
Bonooman wrote:Ita amazing how most people still don't understand that it's all about template's, gear and pvp skills. Certain lightsabers will almost every time beat another template. Depending on the pvp skills and the gear of the players fighting.
MBH/MCM just happens to be a very good template to fight most popular jedi templates. That's all
fixed
It is true and I am inbetween templates and do not have master force wielder anymore and have 4444 lightsabers and I still defeat BH/MCM wearing 75% AB sliced 8K armor.
12AngryMinh wrote:
MsNiL wrote:Not disagreeing. Just chiming in with facts...
Zabba wrote:Master Healer vs Master CM/Master riflemanJedi heals : Cost mind and force. Limited the jedi's ability to heal. Cool down timer 6secs, 1500 power of the heal. ( improved heal )(No Enhancer's used)-Bactashot: 11m, A4% M10%, 6 sec cooldown, 1565-1614 healed
-ForceHeal: 16m, A0%, M9%, 10-~160force, 6 sec cooldown, 1500 healed-Bactajab: 11m, A2% M5%, 6 sec cooldown, 760-806 healed
-TotalHeal: 16m, A0%, M14%, 325-~700+force, 6 sec cooldown, all healed-Bactatoss: 35m, A6% M10%, 17 sec cooldown, 1190-1224 healed
-Bactaspray: 15m, A8% M12%, 18 sec cooldown, 968-995 healed
-Bactainfusion: 11m, A9% M15%, HoT each 5 sec x8 times (45 sec), 282-297 healed
-Force Infusion: 16m, A0%, M12%, 10force, 6 sec cooldown, HoT each 4 sec x12 times (48sec), 250 healedCombat Medic bacta shot : Only costs minds. With enhancers 1700 healing, cool down 2secs. Not having to worry about force limitations.6 sec, unless enhancers make a difference. I doubt regular Bacta Shot heals 1700. Advanced does (Mdoc).Combat Medic bacta spray : Only costs mind. With enhancers 1200-1300 healing power, cool down timer 2secs.Mind & Action, 18sec cooldown last time I checked.Jedi total heal : Massive force cost, completely heals a jedi, mind cost, cool down timer 6secs. Force and mind limitations.14% mind.Combat Medic action/mind debuff : only costs mind to use. Higher duration than imporved force and stronger debuff.Jedi Improved force sap : 35% action debuff/30% mind debuff, duration only 60secs, costs both force and mind to use.
Traumatize/Hemorrhage : 50% mind debuff/50% action debuff, duration 2 minutesCombat medic DoT abilities : A jedi healer must take up master powers for any DoT damage.4000 Lightsaber. But Bleed is broken. So is infect.Combat medics snare and paralyze : a jedi healer has no counter to this must take up enhancer trees for snares and roots.The snare lasts for 2 minutes. Wave lasts for 20 seconds.Things you forgot:MCM can revive.
MCM can heal someone at 35m.
MCM can heal a full group.
A couple things to fixes here.. because you guys seem to forget Master Doctor =! Master combat medic. But for the sake of getting heals nerfed, its very convenient to put them together isnt?-Bactashot: 11m, A4% M10%, 6 sec cooldown
-Master Doc: 1560ish, 260 hp healed per second(hps)
-Master CM: 1216ish, 202 hps
-ForceHeal: 16m, A0%, M9%, 10-~160force, 6 sec cooldown, 1500 healed
-250 hps
-Bactajab: 11m, A2% M5%, 4 sec cooldown
-Master Doc: 780ish, 195 hps
-Master CM: They dont get it, oh snap!
-TotalHeal: 16m, A0%, M14%, 325-~700+force, 6 sec cooldown, all healed
-566ish hps
-Bactatoss: 35m, A6% M10%, 6 sec cooldown
-Master Doc: They dont get it, oh snap again!
-Master CM: 1149ish, 191 hps
-Bactaspray: 15m, A8% M12%, 15 sec cooldown
-Master Doc: Dont get it.
-Master CM: 931ish, 62 hps
-Bactainfusion: 11m, A9% M15%, HoT each 5 sec x8 times (45 sec)
-Master Doc: 288ish
-Master CM: They dont get it.
-Force Infusion: 16m, A0%, M12%, 10force, 6 sec cooldown, HoT each 4 sec x12 times (48sec), 250 healed
To conclude, I think you jedi should get your heads out of your asses when it comes to healing. The best doctor heal with capped healing efficiency is only marginally better than force heal. You pay 28 sp for yours, contrarely to 106 for master docs. Non-jedi can use stims, thats true, but so can you. You should focus your whines and crys towards the exploiting population, those are the ones who bypass cooldown timers and heal 3000 hp's in a matter of seconds. Jedi do it too, do you see every doctor and CM asking jedi to be nerfed?
Message Edited by Halae on 10-04-2005 09:03 AM
Farscape0ne wrote:LOL wait till they nerf your 750 dmg saber you will change your story and besides, how many people out there have a saber that high? lol and let me guess your master ls have u tried only laying without master ls
Joy I look forward to it, my lightsaber is close to that if not perhaps the second highest damage lightsaber on Tarquinas and it shows some fear it because I get immediately stasis singled out most of the time in mass PvP out of everyone else. Not that I'm saying it's fun to have that happen to me.
PhantomFF wrote:
Aren't the Jedi healers considered to be the best in the galaxy before the Jedi purge?
Totally, thats why Anakin had a cybernetic arm and later became Darth Vader, because jedi just own at healing.
HardwiredXMan wrote:
we may see CM/Doc's effectiveness change as fixing those issues will make jedi a bit better (faster mainly),
***NEWS FLASH***
this is exactly why your loosing to CM'S. A decent CM uses your flagrant spaming of specials against you. Most jedi toss out their high damage (and high SAC/foce cost) attacks as fast as they can. A good CM will then attack your regen rate and heal until you are out of SAC/MIND/FORCE. Then you are as good as dead.
A fight against a CM should be looked at as a marathon, as opposed to a sprint. CONSERVE YOUR POOLS. Time your high damage attacks for when the CM's pools (mainly mind) are low.
against a CM faster IS NOT BETTER. It is worse. all faster means is you burn SAC and Force faster.
A full (combat) temp jedi, who is using appropriate food/stims (not a support one) is better then any mundane proff that can be put together. Period. IF and that's a big IF you use the appropriate tactics.