Jedi Archive

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jokerbacca wrote:

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pizzathehut67 wrote:

So ive been up all night reading about non-jedi servers and nerfs and things like that. But i think i actually have a solution that works for everyone... or rather a series of idea. The complaints i mention are not mine... remember im a NON-COMBAT CL1. i did just buy an alt and am making it BH... and i will try a few jedi missions to see what its all about... but im more about the loot and vendors . Before you say it, i have not fought or lost to a single jedi. My one PvP death came at the hands of a CL80 Teras Kasi Master.

READ THE WHOLE THING AND POST ONLY IF YOU WANT TO BE POSITIVE, HELPFUL AND THOUGHTFUL! i know its the status quo to flame, but i did put some effort and thought into trying to think of an equitable solution for everyone. Show some respect and put your thoughts into constructive criticism. If you dont like my ideas then please tell me why and what you think should change.

-remove all bugs related to stacking pearl damage, using macros to dole out massive amounts of damage in a second, and anything else that can be used as an exploit. when coupled with the template... the 1.5X stronger thing becomes 10X stronger. These need to be removed if they havent been already (sometimes i read old posts and dont know it). Likewise, remove exploits from all other combat profs as well. These exploits should be a top priority.

Complaint: "Jedi are too powerful" I'm generalizing here and speaking for the entire game because my level one Master Merchant should be able to compete.

Answer from player base: "we should be... we did a long grind for it. You just need to use your skills better"

my take: Allowing any one profession to be more powerful off the bat in any fight is ludicrous. I dont care how long your grind was. Im a tailor/chef/artisan (merchant dabble). I did plenty of grinding and i dont think i deserve a better selling product or more money because i did more grinding than someother crafting prof. Why does a combat prof feel they need more power because they had to grind more? While it is true that jedi are more powerful in the movies (although there are parts that conflict with that directly), you cant have a multi-player game have an alpha or better class. It simply unbalances the game. Why should everyone else need to be the best and most skilled PvP'er when you dont have to? Besides all that, the continuity argument is simply trash... SOE doesnt give a damn about continuity or else they wouldnt have allowed so many people to become a jedi would they?

my answer: Give jedi more special abilities and lower the bonuses on some. im not exactly sure what bonuses the jedi have then come back and when you have an informed cogent argument we may actually take you seriously until then please go back to spamming your wares in the MO, cnet, theed , but i have heard that several are over-powered. There is one i read about that gives 500 defense while advanced aim in the rifle tree doesnt even give half that bonus in accuracy. more diverse specials (but on par with other profs) would still give jedi the edge... but would require a jedi to also have to rely mainly on their skill. Claiming "i grind so i should be what i am" is an ignorant argument. To have a game be fun for everyone... everyone should be on a generally equal playing field. As stated, jedi would still have a distinct advantage... but this advantage would come from a greater number of tactical choices and not simply having a more powerful base line.

Complaint: There are too many jedi Once again I interject my own opinion over the vast majority of the game and act like this is a fact/ undeniable truth when it is just an opinion.

Answer from player base: im really not sure anyone disagrees with this... there simply are too many

my take: i think we do have an over-population problem with jedi. But im beginning to believe more and more that jedi is a pretty much empty profession. Sure, you can do grievous runs as those are geared towards jedi. But, how many times can you kill grievous before its boring as hell?

my answer: Make jedi more engaging and immersive to play. Add fun random events that can occur to a jedi. A special quest where the ghost of some ancient jedi simply appears to a jedi when they are alone and gives the quest to only that jedi for only that jedi to do. Make some sort of penalty for using force skills within cities or do somthing to make the jedi feel illegal. Honestly, if a sliced gun gets you assaulted by stormtroopers... so would tossing a saber around! Why would this reduce the number of jedi? it really wouldnt... but adding in little things like the imperials hunting you, the feel of being an outcast or illegal, and more content for jedi would help to alleviate the 30vs.30 jedi battles in theed. By content i do not mean more special loot that jedi can get... but rather engaging stories the jedi can play through. I'm sure you will be one of the first individuals that will scream and holler any time that a specific piece of Jedi content is put in, I think we all could live without the annoying screaming from such enlightened individuals as yourself.

Complaint: The high level caves are geared for jedi... making it too difficult for regular profs to accomplish. Me and my badself Master Merchant get pwned in the squill, sennex, tortun

answer from player base: use your skills better

my take: again, having a class that is simply better to begin with is unfair. and arguing that it holds true to the canon is a nerfed argument as there no longer is any correlation to canon in this game at all.

my answer: non-coherent nonsense that plays no part into my original statment.

more to come later... i do need a teeny bit of sleep When you do come back with a real arguement not your opinions dressed up as facts. Learn how to make and arguement not based on half truths and suppositions, imbecile.

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Message Edited by jokerbacca on 09-09-2005 09:34 AM

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learn how to read a post COMPLETELY.

you stated: "then come back and when you have an informed cogent argument we may actually take you seriously until then please go back to spamming your wares in the MO, cnet, theed "

if you read one more line you would have seen: "but i have heard that several are over-powered. There is one i read about that gives 500 defense while advanced aim in the rifle tree doesnt even give half that bonus in accuracy."

Oh, and as for the "my $15 entitles me to the same play experience as everyone else" philosophy: try taking it on the golf course with a scratch golfer who hits 500 balls a day, when you get out maybe once every other month. You'll pay the same greens fees. You can even share a cart. After the two of you leave the tee, though, you will usually get out first, and probably far more often. You probably might even get to do "quests" in parts of the course the other guy won't ever see unless he/she comes to help you find your ball in the rough. It will be a markedly different play experience.

choice of play should not imbalance the game. this point has still yet to have a valid argument posited for it. casual players (jedi and non-jedi) and those who simply dont want to be a jedi should not be punished because they dont choose to play the same way you do.

I'd like to see what would happen, if for ONE week, instead of crying about how other player's templates should be changed, we all posted about nothing but bugs--not the mechanics that each of us doesn't like as individuals, but the true bugs. Imagine if EVERY forum was flooded with complaints about melee/ranged defense bio clothes not working. Imagine if a forum was as diligent about collecting all the broken quest information in one place, in the way the architects keep a reasonably up-to-date listing of the Bestine painting rewards. Imagine if the force sensitive forum was ablaze about the bug that causes the padawan trial quest givers not to re-spawn for so long paddies give up and re-start the mission. If we put half the energy into screaming about the saber speed bugs as we do complaining about all the cool places cloakers have figured out they can get into, we wouldn't have to fiddle with our pearls all the time. Imagine if every forum had a post stickied making fun of the fact that the official advanced guide to armor posted on SOE's own posted "Advanced Guide Index" page is based on pre-CU armor, then it's possible SOE might actually post some current, relevant game documentation.

it was the first point i made that bugs and exploits need to be fixed.

If we could focus on getting SOE to pay attention to the game instead of trying to convince them to drag others down to our level, imagine what fun it might be. I don't blame them for not getting to most of the bugs when you look at how hard it is to sift through the noise.
the correspondents sift through it for them. This game was bugged from day one and plenty of bugs that came out on release day are still in the game. SOE has failed to provide a working product. It is not my responsibility as a consumer to test their product... they should do that themselves.

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Neo_Thumper wrote:

ok i dont know why im doing this but here goes.

ppl say jedi shouldnt have a higher baseline then other proffshateto bring this up but

90% of all other combat proffs outdamage jedi ( i have also seen some cl54 outdamage knights .)

docs and mcm can easily out heal jedi

mcm debuff'sare better then the doc buffs jedi can get (inclueding jedi buffs like force speed.)

but you cant be all those things at once. Jedi should have plenty of power through diverse skill sets that afford them a better tactical positon in combat.

jedi are they only proff that can lose xp in a 1 v 1 battle (jedi vs mbh) no other proffs have this.

i dont see a point to xp loss either. it doesnt help anything.

i also would like 2 say that if anyone has watched the movies (any of them) you can see lightsabre's cutting through steel etc etc. when was the last time im the movies you saw a pistol cut through a wall ????? (i know SOE has on loosey based SWG on starwars 4 a while now.)

huh?

ppl also say there r to many jedi. yes i agree there is however why does no1 say there are too many TKM's MBH's MCM's

ect ect maybe this is because the proffs above are alot easier to get then jedi.

its the ratio that bothers people. the fact that 30vs30 jedi battles happen in theed almost nightly sickens alot of people. thinning the numbers or making jedi harder to get will not help... jedi should have incentive to stay off the beaten path.

the ppl that say jedi should b nerfedshould play jedi for a weekmaybe that way you can c we r not allpowerfull.

but you still have a higher baseline. A skilled player should have FAR more power over a non-skilled player. even out the baseline and give the jedi the ability to raise their own power level with their own skill.

and the ppl they say make jedi harder to getare the same ppl (70% of thetime) that whine when SOE does something about it and makes it harder. this time however they arnt saying make it harder theyare whineing about its to hard

i never said make jedi harder. i dont see a point in doing this.

dont know why i did this i willprolly get flamed more then BBQ chicken. but ppl really should put more thought into threads before they write.

i think its obvious i put plenty of thought into my threads... you just dont want to hear my thoughts... and thats why there i constantly repeat myself and the discussion goes no where.

T'ear Novost full template (post-cu jedi meaning i suck lol)

Lisre non jedi and still beating jedi in pvp and duels

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i just noticed that you didnt add coments to the jedi being out damaged

and being outhealed

or the fact they our proff has more bugs then just about every other proff

ppl talk about balance. sry but to me this dosnt seem like balance just another person calling for a nerf to a proff that has been so hard with the nerf bat the ball (jedi) is now on its way past pluto

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Neo_Thumper wrote:

i just noticed that you didnt add coments to the jedi being out damaged

and being outhealed

or the fact they our proff has more bugs then just about every other proff

it does not have more bugs... tailor cant make anything in a factory cause the colors come out wrong... that is profession breaking. Architects are unable to experiment on fusion generators for 18 months. droid engineers are TOTALLY worthless. whatever the jedi bugs, they are certainly not as bad as others or else there wouldn't be so many jedi.

maybe im reading this wrong but what your saying is make jedi the same as 2 elite combat proff's ???

reading what wrong?

ok here goes

point 1

my alt Lisre FAR out damages my jedi and FAR out heals my jedi

i made a previous post where i actually tested this outdamaging. how far is your alt in jedi healing and doc/MCM?

point 2

the damage that 2 elite combat proffs ei mbh/mrm is far greater the any damage a jedi can dish out

see response to point 1

point 3

doc and mcm as i said before can out heal a jedi

they should! no jedi ever healed themselves in the movies. and besides, these people are specifically trained to heal. now please clarify somthing for me though. does doc 4XXX heal for more than master healer? if thats the case then it needs to be rebalanced for the skill point distribution... but if a dabbling healer is out healed by a dabbling doc... then its right on target. otherwise doctors would be even more useless than they currently are. i think the heal rates of MCM should be turned down as MCM is a hybrid... doc should be the ultimate healer.

so what im getting from this isyou want jedi to be the same baseline as 2 elite combat proffs even though we do LESS damage and LESS healing then any 2 combat proffs out there at this time (maybe this will be fixed but i doubt it)

a generally equal baseline. jedi should have to rely on the skill of the player... not a higher baseline.

ppl talk about balance. sry but to me this dosnt seem like balance just another person calling for a nerf to a proff that has been so hard with the nerf bat the ball (jedi) is now on its way past pluto

then why do people rush to get a jedi? because jedi is still the alpha class! it is still superior to every other class. jedi should be even more superior than it is currently... that is as long as the player is playing with skill and not relying on a higher baseline to win battles for them. I am fighting for a game that relies on skill more than any other factor.

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Neo_Thumper wrote:

rofl this could go on awhile

u wanted 2 know why so many ppl want jedi ok i'll tell ya

to all those ppl reading this ask yourself this question

whenyou was a kid how many of you wanted to be a jedi after u watched the movies. Cause i know i did

many ppl that play this game or about 25+ years of age so most was a kid at some point when a new starwars movie came out.....

maybe i was being a kid when i got this game but as sad as it sounds many ppl want jedi just 2 get jedino other reason lol (or maybe for the free toon you get) because it is the closest some of us BIG kids get 2 forefiling a dream we had as kids (sad isnt it lol)

but if u wanna know if a jedi master healer out heals a mdoc i can tell ya this for free you will never know because in 2 years of playing i have never nore am ever likelytomeet a jedi master healer as it is prolly THE most pointless master box for jedi.

yes there are some power players out there that play to be "uber" but that is the same as any proff

i can tell you right now the is atlestone guy on my sever that will kick ten kinds of crap out of 70% of jedi

its this the balance you mean so these guys can beat 100% of jedi

the balance i am looking for would level the baselines and give jedi a greater tactical advantage through the addition of new skills and attacks. basically, if a non-combat prof must rely on their skill to best a jedi... then a jedi should have to rely on their own skill as well.

and to be honest i cant remeber what this post was really about now lol (hey its 8am my time and i havnt slept yet damn baby hehe

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1. Jedi should be more powerful. That is without question. Alpha classes are good for games in more ways than I can count. The problem is when the power is given without a responsibility attached to that power. Currently, finished template jedi have no reason to hold back. There isn't any reason for them to not abuse their power to destroy the gameplay of non-jedi combattants. There also isn't any reason for someone to NOT go jedi. What needs to happen is a check to keep jedi from showing off in starports. This check has been built into the game, but not fully realized. There are 2 professions that should be hunting jedi, not just one. Bounty Hunters and TKM. XP loss isn't enough to get jedi to mind their p's and q's. There needs to be a jedi counsel (npc) that can dispatch DJM's to deal with jedi after their vis gets above a cirtain point. A death by one of these djm's would cause a 30 min incarceration in the fs village...and that timer would only run while not afk or logged. TKM's should also be able to pull jedi missions, since that was their initial role. A death to one of them would cause simple xp loss. Additionally, when xpget's below -5 million, jedi should be teleported to some backwater of Dath or Yavin and be forced to grind xp up to zero before being released. Here's the catch, xp would be gained at the same rate as a normal profession until zero is reached.


2. Too many jedi? Nope. Too many VISIBLE jedi? Yes. The above would fix that problem.


3. POI's for jedi only? You are on drugs with this one. There isn't a cave or instance that cannot be completed by a group of non-jedi. Or am I missing your real point?

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pizzathehut67 wrote:

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Geepster wrote:

Tryit out before you make any comment/judgements Isay to all non-jedi

- I think we all agree on the bug and exploits to be removed

-I agree that the grind that is so long cant be used as an excuse to be 10x stronger but people who done it do actually deserve 1.5 or 2x stronger. To grind a full template jedi it takes about 60 times longer then a normal lvl 80 combat character, how about you having a job and work 60 hours a week but still make the same amount of money as someone who does exactly the same work for30 hours a week

except we arent payed to play. you CHOSE to do that grind. So why is your opinion and 15 dollars worth more than everyone else's? no one made you do the grind... you did it for your own reasons. Other people should have less enjoyment with the game they play because of what you choose.

So, jedi make you enjoy the game less? I have a jedi and a MBH..and I love playing my MBH a lot more than my jedi...and not just for taking player missions.

-There are to many jedi? Maybe, but thats what SOE wants, the ability to become jedi makes most people play the game, complain to them and not to those want to be one. And if they are able to fix the GCW and make PvP fun in a good working system (pre-cu ftw ) I glady delete my jedi help them balancing this.

READ MY POST! i didnt say make jedi harder or turn it off or stem the flood. i proposed things that would take massive jedi battles out of the cities and main paths where it wont be notices so much.

??

-High level caves are not designed for jedi only, they are just easier when you have the help of one or two jedis, this is not very bad in my opinion because you need combat medic/docs for those high end caves too SOE made it a game where grouping is essential and jedi are only a part of it.

Now this is how I see it.

Have fun.

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sic_nos_defleo wrote:

"we should be... we did a long grind for it. You just need to use your skills better"

i grind so i should be what i am" is an ignorant argument. To have a game be fun for everyone...

everyone should be on a generally equal playing field

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pizzathehut67 wrote:

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Eskie wrote:
Jedi are only 1.5 times more powerful in 1 vs 1 situations. Most Jedi abilities can be found with similar or better stats under a different name in regular professions.

The power of a Jedi stems from having more skills in one template than a regular template (Center of Being and Armor Break and+Root+). A Jedi is a jack-of-all-trades. There are only a few iconic Jedi abilities that are not present in regular professions. A short rundown:

- Improved Force Aura: Same as Improved Center of Being
- Improved Saber Armor Break: Only slighty better than Swordsman Armor Break
- Advanced Force Heal: Surpassed by any Doc 4xxx or CM 4xxx, can heal while KDed, though
- Cloak: Iconic skill, but pretty much Rifleman cover with movement ability and without the auto-decloaking if approached
- Choke: Iconic skill, although the same as a CM poison - not cureable, though.

I could go on with this list, but you get the idea.

If you can muster a group of 8 different, highly specialized regular players, they will perform on the same level as a group of 8 Jedi - but it requires coordination. The only difference is the group of 8 regular players will drop in performance a lot when a member is killed, while the group of 7 Jedi might not even notice the 8th guy missing.

The problem is most people get beaten by Jedi 1 vs 1.5 and think the same will carry over in the GCW, and dont even try it.

Complaining about being ganked by 8 Jedi does not mean Jedi are overpowered - 8 Swordsmen would have killed in the same time.
A group of riflemen complaining about being rolled by Jedi groups does not mean Jedi are overpowered - somebody just chose a bad place to fight and did not diversify his group's skills. If you are a rifleman, base defense turrets are your friend as is range. Dont try to fight Jedi in Theed where Jedi (and any other melee player) can break your line of sight easily.

The problem also is that Jedi are too easy to spot in game and dont care a lot about hiding their abilities until they actually fight. Jedi duels in Theed should not be happening on a regular basis, for example. But this can be adressed by changing the BH death penalty system, no changes to Jedi skills involved in this one.

Message Edited by Eskie on 09-09-2005 01:18 PM

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you overlook my point. you should not be 1.5X stronger just because you choose to play your game the way you do. Other people pay the same money. I agree that jedi should be more powerful than combat profs and should be hard to take down. but a mediocre player should have a chance to compete. combat (just like crafting) should be based upon skill and what you have learned. NOT a higher baseline just because you choose to play a different way.

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