Jedi Archive

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Soulcaster wrote:

Well my idea of the jedi deaths were in support of the FRS. Where you take missions against other jedi...not your run of the mill jedi encounter. Sorry for not clarifying that. Yes base raiding would be fine, and not count as one of the 3 deaths..

..but if an imp took a Jeid mission on you and was able to hunt you...well then thats different =) Kind of like the BHvsJedi system now.

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As I pointed out above - Permadeath is prone to events outside of the players control, and such events should never lead to the loss of a character.
Furthermore, Jedi toons can own houses and have items, so perma-death is out of the question. Or would you want to lose your set of Mandalorian Armor because your house that you had it in just went *poof* after your Jedi toon died? (yes, I know, you dont have a full set, just bringing a point across)

The idea I outlined above is also prone to outside events, but you can insure against it by always keeping a high enough positive xp balance.

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pizzathehut67 wrote:

So ive been up all night reading about non-jedi servers and nerfs and things like that. But i think i actually have a solution that works for everyone... or rather a series of idea. The complaints i mention are not mine... remember im a NON-COMBAT CL1. i did just buy an alt and am making it BH... and i will try a few jedi missions to see what its all about... but im more about the loot and vendors . Before you say it, i have not fought or lost to a single jedi. My one PvP death came at the hands of a CL80 Teras Kasi Master.

READ THE WHOLE THING AND POST ONLY IF YOU WANT TO BE POSITIVE, HELPFUL AND THOUGHTFUL! i know its the status quo to flame, but i did put some effort and thought into trying to think of an equitable solution for everyone. Show some respect and put your thoughts into constructive criticism. If you dont like my ideas then please tell me why and what you think should change.

-remove all bugs related to stacking pearl damage, using macros to dole out massive amounts of damage in a second, and anything else that can be used as an exploit. when coupled with the template... the 1.5X stronger thing becomes 10X stronger. These need to be removed if they havent been already (sometimes i read old posts and dont know it). Likewise, remove exploits from all other combat profs as well. These exploits should be a top priority.

Complaint: "Jedi are too powerful" I'm generalizing here and speaking for the entire game because my level one Master Merchant should be able to compete.

Answer from player base: "we should be... we did a long grind for it. You just need to use your skills better"

my take: Allowing any one profession to be more powerful off the bat in any fight is ludicrous. I dont care how long your grind was. Im a tailor/chef/artisan (merchant dabble). I did plenty of grinding and i dont think i deserve a better selling product or more money because i did more grinding than someother crafting prof. Why does a combat prof feel they need more power because they had to grind more? While it is true that jedi are more powerful in the movies (although there are parts that conflict with that directly), you cant have a multi-player game have an alpha or better class. It simply unbalances the game. Why should everyone else need to be the best and most skilled PvP'er when you dont have to? Besides all that, the continuity argument is simply trash... SOE doesnt give a damn about continuity or else they wouldnt have allowed so many people to become a jedi would they?

my answer: Give jedi more special abilities and lower the bonuses on some. im not exactly sure what bonuses the jedi have then come back and when you have an informed cogent argument we may actually take you seriously until then please go back to spamming your wares in the MO, cnet, theed , but i have heard that several are over-powered. There is one i read about that gives 500 defense while advanced aim in the rifle tree doesnt even give half that bonus in accuracy. more diverse specials (but on par with other profs) would still give jedi the edge... but would require a jedi to also have to rely mainly on their skill. Claiming "i grind so i should be what i am" is an ignorant argument. To have a game be fun for everyone... everyone should be on a generally equal playing field. As stated, jedi would still have a distinct advantage... but this advantage would come from a greater number of tactical choices and not simply having a more powerful base line.

Complaint: There are too many jedi Once again I interject my own opinion over the vast majority of the game and act like this is a fact/ undeniable truth when it is just an opinion.

Answer from player base: im really not sure anyone disagrees with this... there simply are too many

my take: i think we do have an over-population problem with jedi. But im beginning to believe more and more that jedi is a pretty much empty profession. Sure, you can do grievous runs as those are geared towards jedi. But, how many times can you kill grievous before its boring as hell?

my answer: Make jedi more engaging and immersive to play. Add fun random events that can occur to a jedi. A special quest where the ghost of some ancient jedi simply appears to a jedi when they are alone and gives the quest to only that jedi for only that jedi to do. Make some sort of penalty for using force skills within cities or do somthing to make the jedi feel illegal. Honestly, if a sliced gun gets you assaulted by stormtroopers... so would tossing a saber around! Why would this reduce the number of jedi? it really wouldnt... but adding in little things like the imperials hunting you, the feel of being an outcast or illegal, and more content for jedi would help to alleviate the 30vs.30 jedi battles in theed. By content i do not mean more special loot that jedi can get... but rather engaging stories the jedi can play through. I'm sure you will be one of the first individuals that will scream and holler any time that a specific piece of Jedi content is put in, I think we all could live without the annoying screaming from such enlightened individuals as yourself.

Complaint: The high level caves are geared for jedi... making it too difficult for regular profs to accomplish. Me and my badself Master Merchant get pwned in the squill, sennex, tortun

answer from player base: use your skills better

my take: again, having a class that is simply better to begin with is unfair. and arguing that it holds true to the canon is a nerfed argument as there no longer is any correlation to canon in this game at all.

my answer: non-coherent nonsense that plays no part into my original statment.

more to come later... i do need a teeny bit of sleep When you do come back with a real arguement not your opinions dressed up as facts. Learn how to make and arguement not based on half truths and suppositions, imbecile.

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Message Edited by jokerbacca on 09-09-2005 09:34 AM

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Soulcaster wrote:

so be it then. lol

There is no pleasin you huh? hahahah

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Perma-death was in game and got removed because of the problems I mentioned. There is no way SOE or a player can find out if another player lost connection due to outside events or because he wants to make it look like he had outside problems.

no

There is no upside to permadeath, for anyone other than all those Sh*t-out-of-luck griefing paddie poachers who still are upset their pull-toys got taken away. Either advocates really haven't thought this through, or they really enjoy seeing the anguish of people losing months of work--or, at best, enjoy personally benefiting from the loss of others. Or, to satiate the conspiracy theorists, advocates for permadeath must believe that if it were reinstated, the resulting deluge of cancellations would cause SOE to pull the plug on the game itself. It's possible the significant others of gamers are making these posts while the gamers are in the bathroom. I would prefer to believe that than to think they're just digitally-enabled sociopaths.

And what's with the cries to "compromise" on one-sided skill box loss? If the BH were to face an equal penalty, then we *might* have the beginnings of a conversation on this. The BH faces no risk for failure , and reaps reward for success. Instead, let's try this: the penalty for being db'd is the same for both. Hey! What a concept! And the BH who aborts a mission when he finds out the mark is too tough is "fined" 50% of the bounty. Don't want to pay it? Not a problem: just let the mission "decay" in three days (vs three weeks for jedi viz), or hope someone else has more spine than you.

I can see the posts now: Unfair! No other class loses credits when they abort missions. Waaaaa! You knew what you were getting into when you used up your /respec.

There. Now we have risk on both sides. The successful jedi doesn't need a reward. Just wants to see "balance."

Not sure we should stop there, though. What about the double elite who bites off more than he can chew drawing agro from a full squad of high-level npc's? Shouldn't the non-jedi also have the opportunity for the intense "rush" that comes with harsh punishment for a casual mistake?

There is a market for hard-core games that carry substantial penalties for death. It's a very, very small market, though.

Oh, and as for the "my $15 entitles me to the same play experience as everyone else" philosophy: try taking it on the golf course with a scratch golfer who hits 500 balls a day, when you get out maybe once every other month. You'll pay the same greens fees. You can even share a cart. After the two of you leave the tee, though, you will usually get out first, and probably far more often. You probably might even get to do "quests" in parts of the course the other guy won't ever see unless he/she comes to help you find your ball in the rough. It will be a markedly different play experience.

I'd like to see what would happen, if for ONE week, instead of crying about how other player's templates should be changed, we all posted about nothing but bugs--not the mechanics that each of us doesn't like as individuals, but the true bugs. Imagine if EVERY forum was flooded with complaints about melee/ranged defense bio clothes not working. Imagine if a forum was as diligent about collecting all the broken quest information in one place, in the way the architects keep a reasonably up-to-date listing of the Bestine painting rewards. Imagine if the force sensitive forum was ablaze about the bug that causes the padawan trial quest givers not to re-spawn for so long paddies give up and re-start the mission. If we put half the energy into screaming about the saber speed bugs as we do complaining about all the cool places cloakers have figured out they can get into, we wouldn't have to fiddle with our pearls all the time. Imagine if every forum had a post stickied making fun of the fact that the official advanced guide to armor posted on SOE's own posted "Advanced Guide Index" page is based on pre-CU armor, then it's possible SOE might actually post some current, relevant game documentation.

If we could focus on getting SOE to pay attention to the game instead of trying to convince them to drag others down to our level, imagine what fun it might be. I don't blame them for not getting to most of the bugs when you look at how hard it is to sift through the noise.



For the record, and because I find this really, really funny, here's the link to the official "Armor Fundamentals" page:
http://starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com/content.jsp?page=Advanced%20Guides%20Index

Message Edited by grayoberon on 09-09-2005 10:46 PM

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Soulcaster wrote:

This yellow text will be my responses to your post...

-remove all bugs related to stacking pearl damage, using macros to dole out massive amounts of damage in a second, and anything else that can be used as an exploit. when coupled with the template... the 1.5X stronger thing becomes 10X stronger. These need to be removed if they havent been already (sometimes i read old posts and dont know it). Likewise, remove exploits from all other combat profs as well. These exploits should be a top priority.

Complaint: "Jedi are too powerful"

Answer from player base: "we should be... we did a long grind for it. You just need to use your skills better"

my take: Allowing any one profession to be more powerful off the bat in any fight is ludicrous. I dont care how long your grind was. Im a tailor/chef/artisan (merchant dabble). I did plenty of grinding and i dont think i deserve a better selling product or more money because i did more grinding than someother crafting prof.You grininding toa Master Merchant, or whatever, is the same as grinding to say a MCM MBH. You're right, you SHOULDN't have garaunteed instant dmg increases and you shouldn't be stronger than other players that are the same CL. HOWEVER....grinding master merchant, mcm, mbh, etc, isNOT the same as grinding jedi. 1st off keep in mind we PAY to play this game, and anyone that pays that much for 6months to get a jedi that they worked their asses off for SHOULD have some benefits. Supporting this idea is the simple fact that in the movies the Jedi are (no the be-all-end-all but) awesome combatants and are unequaled to the rest of the galaxie. So, what do you think now? Why does a combat prof feel they need more power because they had to grind more? While it is true that jedi are more powerful in the movies (although there are parts that conflict with that directly), you cant have a multi-player game have an alpha or better class. It simply unbalances the game. Why should everyone else need to be the best and most skilled PvP'er when you dont have to? Besides all that, the continuity argument is simply trash... SOE doesnt give a damn about continuity or else they wouldnt have allowed so many people to become a jedi would they?

my answer: Give jedi more special abilities and lower the bonuses on some. im not exactly sure what bonuses the jedi have, but i have heard that several are over-powered. There is one i read about that gives 500 defense while advanced aim in the rifle tree doesnt even give half that bonus in accuracy. more diverse specials (but on par with other profs) would still give jedi the edge... but would require a jedi to also have to rely mainly on their skill. Claiming "i grind so i should be what i am" is an ignorant argument. To have a game be fun for everyone... everyone should be on a generally equal playing field. As stated, jedi would still have a distinct advantage... but this advantage would come from a greater number of tactical choices and not simply having a more powerful base line.

Complaint: There are too many jedi

Answer from player base: im really not sure anyone disagrees with this... there simply are too many

my take: i think we do have an over-population problem with jedi. But im beginning to believe more and more that jedi is a pretty much empty profession. Sure, you can do grievous runs as those are geared towards jedi. But, how many times can you kill grievous before its boring as hell?

my answer: Make jedi more engaging and immersive to play. Add fun random events that can occur to a jedi. A special quest where the ghost of some ancient jedi simply appears to a jedi when they are alone and gives the quest to only that jedi for only that jedi to do. Make some sort of penalty for using force skills within cities or do somthing to make the jedi feel illegal. Honestly, if a sliced gun gets you assaulted by stormtroopers... so would tossing a saber around! Why would this reduce the number of jedi? it really wouldnt... but adding in little things like the imperials hunting you, the feel of being an outcast or illegal, and more content for jedi would help to alleviate the 30vs.30 jedi battles in theed. By content i do not mean more special loot that jedi can get... but rather engaging stories the jedi can play through.

My answer: The jedi population needs to be reduced. And while i DO NOT agree with the old perma-death system...because i dont think anyone that works that hard and pays that much for so long to have a great char, should just be completely removed becuase a BH killed him 3x. Instead i think that there my system should be put into affect.I think it should only be that you can ONLY die and lose your character when fighting OTHER JEDI. Pretty much with the FRS system. This would allow for Jedi to not worry about BH deaths, and only consentrate on the exp they lost AND it would make encountering oppising faction jedi INTENSE!!! It would be very cool to run into or hunt another jedi and you both get ready to do battle knowing that this could kill your jedi. IN ADDITION to this system i add the twist SOE could impliment. The twist is that if people DONT want to do the whole character removal thing...then they could make it so after your 3rd death to an opposing faction jedi (none of this imp killed an imp stuff), you dont lose your character...but you lose ALL of your jedi skills. and return to a new padawan/initiate again. I think this system would be a great idea, and i keep posting this idea in all the threads about it. It definately would make seeing an opposing faction jedi INTENSE!!!

Complaint: The high level caves are geared for jedi... making it too difficult for regular profs to accomplish.

answer from player base: use your skills better

my take: again, having a class that is simply better to begin with is unfair. No its not. This is not a profession that you start the game fresh out of the box with. you have to work for this...and arguing that it holds true to the canon is a nerfed argument as there no longer is any correlation to canon in this game at all.

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You grininding toa Master Merchant, or whatever, is the same as grinding to say a MCM MBH. You're right, you SHOULDN't have garaunteed instant dmg increases and you shouldn't be stronger than other players that are the same CL. HOWEVER....grinding master merchant, mcm, mbh, etc, isNOT the same as grinding jedi. 1st off keep in mind we PAY to play this game, and anyone that pays that much for 6months to get a jedi that they worked their asses off for SHOULD have some benefits. Supporting this idea is the simple fact that in the movies the Jedi are (no the be-all-end-all but) awesome combatants and are unequaled to the rest of the galaxie. So, what do you think now?

so according to you someone who has played the game for 24 months should recieve the extra skill point vet reward that has been proposed? length of play or CHOICE of play should not grant you a more powerful character by baseline. my point is being misconstrued YET AGAIN! the Jedi powers/damage/defense/accuracy should be more in line with other combat profs. The Jedi's real strength should be through a diverse set of specials which gives them a tactical edge... not simply more power because they did a grind. The frequent argument posed by jedi is "you need to use your special's better". So you do a grind and shouldnt have to worry about your specials use? that is not fair. the game should not be about who payed more money or credits for what but rather who is the better player. a long grind does not make you a better player!!!!!!!!!!!

Case in point: Jedi resource packs sell like crazy at 65cpu on my server. WHY?!?!? probably because these "superior players" know little to nothing about crafting or how to make somthing useful. i may be wrong here completely... jedi do have the skills needed to get their own resources correct? if not... they should.

My main point is that the game should not reward you with higher baseline for CHOOSING to do a long grind. it should grant jedi special content, storylines, and a slight but distinct advantage. slight because you are NOT THAT MUCH more powerful than another combat class... but distinct in that if you know how to use your own specials beating you should be EXTREMELY difficult. The current system grants jedi a higher baseline and negates the need for skill in combat. or at the very least diminishes the need for skill.

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danny-gene wrote:
I DONT AGREE WITH: Jedi are too powerful

Sorry but non-jedi should use there skills better. A non-jedi that knows his template can give some jedi a good fight (depending on the jedi's template)

i have seen a pikeman kill a cl80 padawan and give a jedi knight a very close fight before dying.

I think the balance between jedi and non-jedi is quite good i mean a BH/MCM is a scary thought for most jedi but a jedi with master enhancer will laugh at him. Because they have the skills to handle him.
There are so many combos of proffessions out there is great you can have the best template in the game but there will always be a template that can beat it.

Thats my OPINION anyway

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JEDI SHOULD HAVE TO USE THEIR SKILLS BETTER TOO! dont you get it? you CHOSE to do the grind and pay the money. no one forced you. Saying "non-jedi need to use their skills better" is stupid... jedi should not be granted a higher baseline. Jedi should have to rely on their own skills as a player above all else.

Ok no offense here...but when the HECK was the last time you saw Obi'won lose to Jar-Jar in a fight? You think that a Jedi should be nerfed and equal to all the other professions!??!? I'm sorry but you need to leave. I do not flame people, but your line of thinking is rediculous. There SHOULD be an alpha class in this game (Jedi is it), and it SHOULD take forever to obtain and you SHOULD be better than all th eother players.

No offense but you are not even a Jedi NOR a combat profession and you want to nerf Jedi? I'm sorry but its people like you that SOE listens to, thinking you are a "nuetral viewer" to this whole galaxie and your words have a heavy impact on the game whether you know it or not.

Please stop posting about wanting to nerf jedi.

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you CHOSE to do the grind. your choice should not grant you an escape from skill being a necessity in ALL situations! i didnt say EQUAL either... i said "more in line". a "SLIGHT BUT DISTINCT ADVANTAGE". A jedi who knows how to use their own specials to the full effectiveness should be able to best any other combat prof.

My point repeated for the 50th time: "even the baseline and give jedi a diverse skill set that would allow a jedi player to best their opponents with skill. alpha classes imbalance the game... period the end there is no way to argue that.

I am a combat prof. I have a CL78 Mrifles, CM4xxx, BH2444. i have never engaged a jedi in combat in any situation other than testing (that is testing the effects of buffs, de-buffs, etc.) in a duel under various circumstances.

and jedi arent listened to? The perma death system (which was actually in the first release manual mind you) has been thrown out (and i actually agree with that). the way to achieve a jedi which was in the first manual described as sercret and unique to evert player has been thrown out. what exactly hasn't been listened to?

Other people that pay the same money have the ability to grind to Jedi just like we did for our $15 a month. Should I argue that I should be able to place multiple vendors, just because that guy with master merchant can? After all, I pay $15 a month to play just like him, why can't I do the same things?

Your argument that you pay the same $ per month might hold water if you were somehow not allowed to go through the process to do with your character exactly what we have done with ours.

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YES, the BH with thegazillion credit75% ABADK'D suit and the super soaker full of hurt deserves the reward for the acquisition of his gear and template, YES, the AS that spends endless hours pouring over schematics and spending untold fortunes on resources to make the best gear deserves forthose suits to sell like hot cakes, and YES a person that puts the time into grinding a jedi deserves a powerful character. Heres a little perspective on the effort to payout ratio. My main for 2 years took7 months from unlock to full temp. My alt, 5 days from nerf herder to mbh mrifles, 7 days of npc missions for 2 killer ca's, 20 mil and the best gear available minus it all being adk'd. When you put forth effort, you reap the reward of that effort. How does that make sense in every pursuit other than having a powerful character that THEY PUT IN THE GAME FOR PEOPLE TO PLAY!

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your power should be in your skill... not a higher baseline. jedi should be given a more diverse skill set allowing them a tactical advantage over opponents ONLY IF THE PLAYER IS SKILLED ENOUGH TO USE IT PROPERLY!