Jedi Archive

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Everitt_Cage wrote:

His not being able to keep himself from falling into it doesnt mean he couldnt get out later,

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Everitt_Cage wrote:

Anakin made that choice the moment he left the Jedi temple, disobeying Windu's orders, to go STOP Windu and co from killing the chancellor, as he thought they would. Even if Palpatine had killed Mace, it was self defense(he was defending himself), so he could have easily manipulated Anakin into still believing that the Jedi had tried to assassinate him and take over the republic. Thats the beauty of it.

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Message Edited by felipz on 10-07-2005 10:57 PM

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Everitt_Cage wrote:

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felipz wrote:

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Everitt_Cage wrote:

If you actualy read that whole sentence, it says he could not escape in reference to his falling into it.

"Even the infamous bounty hunter Boba Fett could not escape the disgusting creature, as an out-of-control rocket pack deposited the armored hunter into the Sarlacc's gullet."

That was true, as we all saw. He was not able to escape falling into it. However, that in no way implies he was not able to escape from inside it at a later date, and were he to do so it would not contradict the fact that he was nto able to escape falling into it in the first place in any way.

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Yes that's what it says, he could not escape to his falling into it.

Well didn't it say he could not escape it ? If he could not escape it how did he escape it later ?

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His not being able to keep himself from falling into it doesnt mean he couldnt get out later, I hope you can understand that. His jetpack was malfunctioning at the time of his falling into it, so you could say that is the reason he couldnt escape falling into it. However, the EU explains how he got out:

"Fett's armor and body were extremely battered by his ordeal in the Sarlacc. When he plunged into the beast, he was kept alive by numerous fibrous suckers that attached themselves to his body. This was part of the Sarlacc's horrible metabolic process; it would keep its prey alive for thousands of years, all the while slowly feeding off it. Fett almost lost his identity in the swirling dementia brought about by the Sarlacc's toxins. His resolve held, and he used his weapons to blast free of the beast."

So, recapping: His jetpack was damaged, which caused him to not be able to escape falling INTO it, as the databank says. His armor kept him alive once inside it, and he was later able to escape using his equiptment, as the EU says. Now, I'm not saying I necessarily agree w/ the EU's story, I'm just pointing out the fact that it doesnt contradict the movie or the databank. Think about it in RL terms if that helps. Lets say a swat team shows up and arrests you. You might not be able to escape them, since they outnumber you, and you might be put in jail. However, later you might find a way to escape. Just because you cant escape going in, doesnt mean you cant find a way out later.

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They need to stop using those jet packs, it's always the cause of one of the 'Fette's' getting murdered....

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felipz wrote:

First lemme ask something because I don't read a lot about Star Wars yet. When exactly didYoda and Dooku beat Windu in a friendly duel ?

Just think for a bit, if Dooku was able to defeat Windu, and Yoda on episode one clearlywas faster than Dooku, and Yoda andPalpatine were pretty evenboth pretty quick Yoda had no chance of beating him, do you really think Windu could beatPalpatine ?

/discuss

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A few random thoughts ...

1) Doesnt it bother you that 4 jedi enter the room and 3 jedi masters, who devoted there entire lives to learning and perfecting there craft, die within 30 seconds of igniting there sabers?

2) Just because Mace got zapped doesnt mean hes dead now does it? I mean, Luke got zapped and survived and got hit longer than Mace did. Who says Mace didnt use the force to float down to a safe landing? He jumped from the balcony in EP 2 and landed softly on his feet ...

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felipz wrote:

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Iawalein wrote:

It is certain that Palpatine used the situation to turn Anakin, but the situation was no more in his certain control than with another Skywalker about 30 years later. The idea then was to sacrifice his father to turn Luke, but we all know how THAT one went.

Palpatine had no way to be certain that Anakin would turn, and had he not, Palpatine would most likely have been destroyed. It's pretty certain that he had to take this gamble to form his empire since Anakin would be his greatest enemy if he wasn't turned. Palpatine also understood a lot about Anakin's motivations, especially after having maneuvered him for so long. This doesn't mean that Palpatine was just faking however. It was a necessary risk to bring about his plans.

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Right, but at acertain point we do know he's faking when he claims he's too weak and such.

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That was the whole point. Through out the entire movie, Anakin was reaching out. He was asking for help from Yoda, Mace, and Obi-wan. His seeing vision's of death and pain aswell as his general actions should have sent off warning bells in the Council. But the masters believed that he was able to control it and come to a decision for himself. The only person who answered Anakin's desprerate cries for help was Palpatine. Had Mace shown more faith, Yoda paid more attention to the problem Anakin went for him for advice for to begin with, and Obi-wan jus been there they could have ended Palpatine's rule. Had Mace only brought Anakin along with them to arrest the Palpatine, instead of telling him to go stew in his own turmoil which he obviously sensed coming off him, it would have come off very differant.

About the who won? Mace had him beaten. Palpatine's LS was tossed out the window when Mace kicked him down. The backfire of the lightning would have been enough to finish him off and the empire would have never been born. The fact that he sensed Anakin and played on the broken emotions that he had, was the only reason Mace fell. Ya he still had some juice in him, but if Anakin had not arrived when he did, Palpatine would be a stain on the carpet of the Chancellor's office. But he did, and he loped off Maces arm and the Empire was born.

In a saber fight, Windu could beat Palpatine.

Windu was a master of Vapaad which was the tier7 skill of Lightsaber.

Vapaad was a completed form of Juyo which Windu was able to master "supposedly" without turning to the Dark Side. Both of Windu's apprentices turned to the darkside while trying to follow Windu's teachings, and where "supposedly" saved from the darkside by Windu.

Yoda and Palpatine practiced Ataru which was tier4. It was an acrobatic style of Lightsaber fighting, and was not a very good style. (Obi-won improved upon the style after seeing his Master Qui-gon get killed while trying to use the style against Darth Maul.) (Palpatine practiced a Sith varient of Ataru that consisted of stabs, but it was still an Ataru form.)

Count Dooku practiced tier2, known as Makashi, and was the "forgotten style". Makashi was a style used in lightsaber vs lightsaber combat. It was forgotten because the Sith had been supposedly extinct. Thus Jedi no longer trained in Makashi because they believed that most of their opponents would be using blasters rather then Lightsabers. Dooku learned Makashi by secretly researching old Sith holocrons in the Jedi Archives.

Makashi was known to be a very elegant style, and would have made him a very powerful opponent when fighting against Lightsaber weilding opponents. Duels between Jedi and Sith where what Makashi was designed for.

This style would have made Dooku very deadly against other Lightsaber weilding opponents. Even against Windu.

As far as Windu, there are many who believe that he was a fallen Jedi. (Not necessarily a Sith, but remember...Jedi do not kill, yet Windu beheaded a helpless opponent which Yoda insisted on wanting to question..Jango, and he was also willing to kill Palpatine.) Among LOAD of other evidence that he had actually fallen.

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TezDaMedic wrote:

In a saber fight, Windu could beat Palpatine.

Windu was a master of Vapaad which was the tier7 skill of Lightsaber.

Vapaad was a completed form of Juyo which Windu was able to master "supposedly" without turning to the Dark Side. Both of Windu's apprentices turned to the darkside while trying to follow Windu's teachings, and where "supposedly" saved from the darkside by Windu.

Yoda and Palpatine practiced Ataru which was tier4. It was an acrobatic style of Lightsaber fighting, and was not a very good style. (Obi-won improved upon the style after seeing his Master Qui-gon get killed while trying to use the style against Darth Maul.) (Palpatine practiced a Sith varient of Ataru that consisted of stabs, but it was still an Ataru form.)

Count Dooku practiced tier2, known as Makashi, and was the "forgotten style". Makashi was a style used in lightsaber vs lightsaber combat. It was forgotten because the Sith had been supposedly extinct. Thus Jedi no longer trained in Makashi because they believed that most of their opponents would be using blasters rather then Lightsabers. Dooku learned Makashi by secretly researching old Sith holocrons in the Jedi Archives.

Makashi was known to be a very elegant style, and would have made him a very powerful opponent when fighting against Lightsaber weilding opponents. Duels between Jedi and Sith where what Makashi was designed for.

This style would have made Dooku very deadly against other Lightsaber weilding opponents. Even against Windu.

As far as Windu, there are many who believe that he was a fallen Jedi. (Not necessarily a Sith, but remember...Jedi do not kill, yet Windu beheaded a helpless opponent which Yoda insisted on wanting to question..Jango, and he was also willing to kill Palpatine.) Among LOAD of other evidence that he had actually fallen.

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Well but when Windu lost a duel to Dooku and Yoda was he already the master of the Vapaad ? And to say Yoda / Palpatine's style wasn'ta very goodI don't get it...Ithinkit depends more on the 'person' using it, such as Yoda and Palpatine were pretty darn quick.

Message Edited by felipz on 10-08-2005 07:08 AM

This is a good discussion. We all precieve things different and that's what makes people so unique and interesting. Trying to figure out one's intentions is truely the ultimate belief in trust as you are allowing control to be put into the hands of another, but not knowing if what you believe about them is correct or not. Therefore, you have lost control/power over the situation at least temporarily.

In my opinion, palpatine was beat. he was disarmed by windu. Windu used his saber to defend himself against palpatines lightening (palpatines' only offense at the time) and windu also used force feedback so it seems because the lightening is what fried palpatine.

Now palpatine was old, but not that old....to allow windu to fry him with lightening is not a very good plan just to turn someone to the darkside which you know you will enevitably replace them later when someone stronger comes along as palpatine tried to do with luke. so I don't buy that palpatine used the situation or windu to turn anakin.

Anakin was already turned towards the darkside back when he slaughtered the tuskens for killing his mother. Yoda felt it and yet yoda chose to do nothing about it. Heck yoda even told qui gon that anakin should not become a jedi because yoda was the only one who sensed great danger (or whatever he said) in anakin. But yet again, yoda chose to do nothing about it.....

So anakin was on the path to falling long before the windu vs palpatine fight. The only thing anakins actions proved in the palpatine vs windu fight was that anakin had truely made the conversion to the dark side in that he attacked a high ranking member of the jedi council. However, anakin was acting on the emotions the visions of padme dying and he wanted the secret of resurrection from palpatine. Anakin did not care whether palpatine was jedi or sith...he only cared that the only person who promised to help him had the knowledge and allowing him to die meant losing that help forever, since palpatine claimed noone else new of this knowledge.

Whether palpatine sensed anakin or not is irrelevant. No jedi regardless of how strong they are in the force and accurately predict the actions of another person. You can only hope and make a guess that one will do exactly what you want. Manipulating others often requires you to temporarily give up your control in all situations. Hence a soldier allowing themselves to get captured to gain recon info on the enemy....the risk is that you will be tortured and maybe even killed. However, in that situation, if your plan is to be the man in power, you won't put yourself into that situation as it's too much of a risk that you won't survive.

So although I can understand how some people feel palpatine manipulated the situation....the fact still remains that he had no idea if his plan would work or not. That means he did not allow windu to nearly kill him. Since anakin clearly was not more powerful than yoda or obi-wan, palpatine had no clue that anakin would be his greatest allie or adversary. Obi-wan probably could have done what luke done except obi-wan chose to follow yoda's orders and stay hidden. However, luke chose to ignore yoda and go after vader and the empire.

So what I'm saying is that there is no way that palpatine felt that anakin was strong enough to be what he wanted. If the idea was to have the most powerful jedi at palpatines side, then he chose the wrong jedi as far as power goes....as far as nature goes, he made the right choice. Yoda and obi-wan were clearly more powerful than anakin/vader yet palpatine had no chance in turning them as they were in control of their emotions more than any jedi in history. Yoda lived for 900 plus years never turning to the dark side to my knowledge, obi-wan never turned either or even considered turning. Palpatine clearly knew they were his greatest enemy adn that anakin was not more powerful than them.

Yoda and obi-wan both coud clearly destroy anakin but that is not the jedi way and palpatine simply wanted anakin because he was an easy jedi to turn, plus he had the potential to be the most powerful jedi in the galaxy, but that would only come with either yoda, obi-wan or palptines teaching...depending on what path anakin wanted to take.

So with all of this info, I'm sorry, palpatine was beat and would be dead had anakin not entered the room. Also, palpatine did not defeat windu. anakin and palpatine did together. Just remember, before anakin walked into the room, palpatine had stopped using his lightening....if he had continued, the feedback would have killed him and windu wouldn't even have to try and strike him down with his saber....however, when anakin walked in the room, I believe neither windu or palpatine were actually attacking each other....they were talking and that's when palpatine decided to try and use anakin to save him by pretending that windu was trying to assassinate him.

Also, before windu even came for palpatine, palpatine told anakin that the jedi would try and assasinate him and that was simply another manipulation tactic, yet palpatine didn't know anakin was gonna tell the jedi he was a sith. He simply sent anakin to spy.

All-in-all, there is no way palpatine manipulated the whole situation as there were too many variables that were out of hte control of palpatine. to totally give up all your power and control is an act of desperation.....you lose all power and control and palpatine clearly would not have done that or he wouldn't have fought so hard to stay in control of the senate. That act there clearly showed he did not want to give up control, yet he would fake almost dying to windu....no way, it doesn't make any sense. He would have to have faith that windu was gonna kill him before hand as well as have faith that anakin would tell the jedi he was a sith, as well has beleived anakin would have come at the perfect time and commit the actions he did. You simply can't rely on that many variables to line up simply to turn someone to the dark side....there are clearly many easier ways anakin could have been turned.

Bottom line, palpatine lost to windu and had windu not ran his mouth like most arrogant, over-confident and powerful people do, palpatine would have been history instead of windu.

One thing is for sure, in straight up battle with sabers, I don't see anyone in the current time period of ep3 who could have bested windu....maybe some of the old time jedi 4000 years earlier...but palpatine, anakin, luke, yoda, obi-wan, qui-gon or any of the other jedi or sith couldn't have beat windu in saber combat......with other variables like using force powers and the surrounding people and objects, sure because that was one of windu's weakness. His saber style is more focused on one opponent rather than a multitude of things or people.

With sabers, windu is the most powerful jedi....with sabers, powers and manipulation, he may well be one of the weaker jedi. The whole thing is about circumstances. On any given day, any given time, any jedi can beat another jedi given the right circumstances....that's why it's always better to run and fight later than to continue to fight a losing battle or one that neither can win.

Message Edited by HardwiredXMan on 10-08-2005 09:41 AM