Jedi Archive

---

Drazharr wrote:

I don't have a thing confused here, bub. I've played a Master Defender with the AI snare nerf and you move like a turtle. You can't get away.

---

which doesn't prove a thing. There are over a dozen snares in the game at this point. All of them affect movement to a different degree. AI is supposed to be a last ditch thing, with you on the verge of passing out. It makes sense that in that crippled state you'd be moving a bit slower. Cloak is not the same. Cloak is something that you use to prepare for battle, and use while escaping. I think it's akin to a ranged weapon user pulling out there gun. They take it out before the battle, and if they need to run, they keep it equipped while they /burst away, until they're out of range.

Now, holding a weapon imparts a snare. But that doesn't stop BHs or any other ranged profession from using ranged weapons, does it? Why? because the snare is a realatively small deal, an attempt at balance without completly making a playstyle unplayable. Since the idea of holding a weapon, and holding your concentration on invisibilty both seem to me to be ideas that center around preparation and setting up an attack, I suspect cloak will have a snare more similar to holding a weapon than to Avoid Incapacitation.

But the fact is that we don't know, since snares are all different. So speculating is useless, really. and for the record, my name isn't "bub". There's no need to get antagonistic here. I'm simply trying to show you that speculating right now will only stress you out. We don't know how powerful the snare will be. It could be 1% movement reduction, could be 90%. Until you KNOW, you're speculating.

---

Phenix1050 wrote:

---

Drazharr wrote:

I don't have a thing confused here, bub. I've played a Master Defender with the AI snare nerf and you move like a turtle. You can't get away.

---

which doesn't prove a thing. There are over a dozen snares in the game at this point. All of them affect movement to a different degree. AI is supposed to be a last ditch thing, with you on the verge of passing out. It makes sense that in that crippled state you'd be moving a bit slower. Cloak is not the same. Cloak is something that you use to prepare for battle, and use while escaping. I think it's akin to a ranged weapon user pulling out there gun. They take it out before the battle, and if they need to run, they keep it equipped while they /burst away, until they're out of range.

Now, holding a weapon imparts a snare. But that doesn't stop BHs or any other ranged profession from using ranged weapons, does it? Why? because the snare is a realatively small deal, an attempt at balance without completly making a playstyle unplayable. Since the idea of holding a weapon, and holding your concentration on invisibilty both seem to me to be ideas that center around preparation and setting up an attack, I suspect cloak will have a snare more similar to holding a weapon than to Avoid Incapacitation.

But the fact is that we don't know, since snares are all different. So speculating is useless, really. and for the record, my name isn't "bub". There's no need to get antagonistic here. I'm simply trying to show you that speculating right now will only stress you out. We don't know how powerful the snare will be. It could be 1% movement reduction, could be 90%. Until you KNOW, you're speculating.

---

Sorry to offend ya'.

But dude, you're trusting the devs. Why, in the face of two years of contrary evidence and facts, do you do that?

You say I prove nothing. You aren't either. But there's one difference - I'm basing my speculation on the dev's past track record. It's abysmal.

I think I have a much greater chance of being right than you are. But having said that, I truly hope you are right and I am proved wrong.

And I hope they don't take my token respec away from me if I am proved right. I'm gonna need it.

---

Drazharr wrote:

Sorry to offend ya'.
But dude, you're trusting the devs. Why, in the face of two years of contrary evidence and facts, do you do that?
You say I prove nothing. You aren't either. But there's one difference - I'm basing my speculation on the dev's past track record. It's abysmal.
I think I have a much greater chance of being right than you are. But having said that, I truly hope you are right and I am proved wrong.
And I hope they don't take my token respec away from me if I am proved right. I'm gonna need it.

---

Not offended in the least, really. Just didn't want you to think that I was going to flame ya back. I'm here to discuss this, not fight over it. I didn't want it to start taking that tone, because then other people tend to join in on the negative tone and it all goes downhill fast.

I'm trusting the devs because I've noticed them making good decisions recently. Look at the professions they've changed recently-- they changed CH, SL and now Ranger. They're focusing on making the professions that need work,...work. It's great. The devs are not evil or malicious. They havea financial and personal investment in making sure the most people possible enjoy the game. Nefring cloak to an unusable degree goes against that.

I see the devs as interested in balance. Giving cloak the same movement speed hinderance as a ranged profession weilding a weapon seems balanced, so long as they also make a few other changes, which I already listed. It seems smart to do that then, rather than to make it like AI.

but that's just my opinion. I don't go off telling people "it's no big deal, it's only going to be a minor reducion!!!". I say it could be a minor reduction or it could be huge. I will actively protest with you guys if it's too powerful a snare, okay? That's a promise. But until we get word either way, I'd caution against telling people that it's "going to be" a certain way, and maintain some dicipline and say "it might be this way or it might be this way...I THINK it's going to be this way". By qualifying our statements as opinions rather than facts, we remove the shadows of speculation, which are rarely helpful.

---

Grienthumb wrote:
Someone said they are bringingcloak in line with the master defender ability, avoid incap. A stackable snare with 900 force cost for activation and a 30 second timer. I heard stassis is being looked at also.......

---

---

EvilAztec wrote:

Helios had this to say:

6. You are afflicted with a movement snare when you are stealthy (rooted when just camouflaged)

You know what guys, everything is not a nerf. Cloak was never intended to work the way it does now. All the devs are doing is going back and fixing it the way it was supposed to be at first. Doing the ranger revamp simply gave them the opportunity to fix it since cloaking and stealth are probably working off the same part of the code.

As for the snare, I don't think jedi would be snared when cloaked. the snare was mentioned earlier in that post where it applied to rangers stealing and stealth. You wouldn't want a ranger being able to burst run while under camo or stealth running past a character and stealing at the same time. Sosome thingswhere put in place so that certain actions would break stealth and snare was added to provide the sneaking element. Typically someone who is sneaking is tip toeing or in a low crouching position and that hinders movement.

For jedi, there would be no reason for them to be snared with the current system because it will only aid in the loss of their force pool faster. If you were snared, it would take you longer to get out of range of any beings that would cause your force to drain faster (at least that's my understanding of how cloak works). Just because one dev post something doesn't always mean they are the divine authority over whether what they post is 100% correct. The devs have bad communication sometimes too.

However, even if cloak will get a snare, it would be one of those things that i'm sure the devs will see that would need to be removed. Currently Cloak is an instant "I can't lose button". If you get into trouble, at your first chance, you will get out of range, cloak and you are instantly untargetable and can stay out of range of anyone because they can't see you to stay within range. So the only way your force is gonna drain faster is if you move within range of someone.

Hold on though, there is another thing that is inconsistant about cloak. Helio's also said in another post in that thread that cloak is a mind-trick. I totally forgot about that actually, I was just thinking of cloak as a game mechanic and not as how it would be categorized for jedi. Basically this means that cloak should not be an ability that works 100% of the time.

Obi-wan said it anakin that mind-trick only works on the weak-minded. If that's the case, given how cloak works and is categorized as a mind-trick in the game, that would indicate that all npc's, creatures, PC's and other jedi are all weak minded.

I don't think anyone would agree that a master jedi and some jedi knights and many creatures would always fall for mind-tricks. Therefore, force cloak should have skill checks placed on it and the supposed snare should not be put in place. What this means is that a cloaking jedi will have an opportunity to cloak, but you'd have to pass a skill check to successfully do so when your within sight range of characters. You'd have to pass a skill check to successfully cloak basically. Once you pass that check, then cloak would work as it does now.

So my point is that the devs have already given force cloak to use where it works in a manner that it's not supposed to work. Prime example of a mind-trick not working was when luke tried to use one on jabba to make him release Han and leia. It didn't work because evidently either luke's skill with it was weak or jabba was strong minded. So we should be happy the devs even allow us to have cloak in the manner it's in now. It certainly is not working like mind-tricks are supposed to work. Now that the devs want to add the things they inadvertantly didn't fix the first time, All the powers jedi want to complain that they are getting nerfed.

I'm sorry, everything that reduces an ability is not a bad nerf like the jedi boards make all nerfs to be. IF anyone thinks these changes are a bad nerf (besides the snare part, I don't agree with that, just be glad you don't get the root like rangers will get when they are invisible), Then you really have no clue that you've been spoiled through the devs mistakes.

Was there anything wrong with cloak before.....sure was!

Could it have been fixed so it works without the exploits....sure could have!

Was cloak always working like the devs drew it up in the first place....can't say, but they are making changes anyway....whether they are to correct a past mistake or to better balance the ability is anyone's guess.......in my opinion though, any ability that allows you to have either an instant "I win" or "I can't lose" button should not be in this game.

A.I. was an "I win" buttong until they added a snare and increased it's initial cost.

Cloak is an "I can't lose" button but had no changes until now.

What's fair is fair and as I said, the snare shouldn't be part of cloaking at all.However, it does make sense because what your essentailly doing is tricking the person in believing your not there, any fast or sudden movement would break that hold you have over them and they would suddenly become aware. So we must pick our poison, either have a snare or have a skill check against cloak.

So I don't see it as a nerf at all, I see it as an attempt to balance things, except the devs are picking the wrong way to do that. I personally think the skill check system is better, because for one thing, you might be able to fool a humanoid being, but a rancor and other feirce animals have heightened senses as well as high level jedi, you shouldn't be able to instantly cloak from them and only be revealed when you turn it off or your force bar runs out.

For jedi, all of you who believe that certain abilities are working fine and just because you don't see an issue with them, doesn't mean they won't or can't be changed. Whether you like it or not, this game is forever changing and you must roll with the punches or you'll never be happy with any change the devs make. THis is the very reasoning I had to use with CU, if I didn't believe this, then I would definitely not be still paying to play this game. You can find fun in this game if you look for it. We have no control over how far the devs will go with their changes. Complaining only takes away your fun. Not saying everyone should stop complaining, but certainly there are better things we could be doing rather than crying about one or two abilities that are changing. Adjusting is a part of anything we do, if we can't adjust to the changes, then we have no business even playing this game because it is clearly stated to all of use when we read the rules, TOS and install the game that gameplay will change. This is not a single player game, it's an online game which must keep evolving, good or bad, or it will simply not have lasted this long.

My response to this situation is "so what", if they change something you dont' like. Don't complain in the typical baby tantrum responses I see in these forums. You politely state that you disagree, present a way in which you think things can be improved and if things keep getting worse or your not enjoying the direction the game is going in, then that's an indication that it's time to move on.

FYI, for those that like to know such information. I am not biased to any profession. I will never be for something because I have that profession and vice versa. With that said, I am not a master defender and I am not a 0400 powers jedi. I have neither cloak or A.I. My reasoning is simply from logic and understanding of how things are supposed to be in star wars (I know everthing is not like it's supposed to be, but that doesn't mean I can't stick to certain principles). If GL, LA and whomever else has the authority to give correct information says to us that jedi-mind tricks don't always work, then that tells me that the devs should take that into consideration and if at all possible, they should make mind-trick abilities have a chance at working and not a 100% chance. As for having to be outside of a certain range to even cloak, well that's not a chance thing, that's a system in place to keep people from exploiting. If you can cloak at any range without having to make a skill check, then that creates room for major exploits.

---

Grienthumb wrote:
Someone said they are bringingcloak in line with the master defender ability, avoid incap. A stackable snare with 900 force cost for activation and a 30 second timer. I heard stassis is being looked at also.......

---

To Hardwiredxman - cloak is not an "I Win" button. It uses tons of force in populated areas. If you run it for very long in a group PvP battle, you will run out of force and die.

But cloak is an "I can get away" button. That's being taken away. That is just not right.

---

HardwiredXMan wrote:

You know what guys, everything is not a nerf. Cloak was never intended to work the way it does now. All the devs are doing is going back and fixing it the way it was supposed to be at first. Doing the ranger revamp simply gave them the opportunity to fix it since cloaking and stealth are probably working off the same part of the code.

As for the snare, I don't think jedi would be snared when cloaked. the snare was mentioned earlier in that post where it applied to rangers stealing and stealth. You wouldn't want a ranger being able to burst run while under camo or stealth running past a character and stealing at the same time. Sosome thingswhere put in place so that certain actions would break stealth and snare was added to provide the sneaking element. Typically someone who is sneaking is tip toeing or in a low crouching position and that hinders movement.

For jedi, there would be no reason for them to be snared with the current system because it will only aid in the loss of their force pool faster. If you were snared, it would take you longer to get out of range of any beings that would cause your force to drain faster (at least that's my understanding of how cloak works). Just because one dev post something doesn't always mean they are the divine authority over whether what they post is 100% correct. The devs have bad communication sometimes too.

However, even if cloak will get a snare, it would be one of those things that i'm sure the devs will see that would need to be removed. Currently Cloak is an instant "I can't lose button". If you get into trouble, at your first chance, you will get out of range, cloak and you are instantly untargetable and can stay out of range of anyone because they can't see you to stay within range. So the only way your force is gonna drain faster is if you move within range of someone.

Hold on though, there is another thing that is inconsistant about cloak. Helio's also said in another post in that thread that cloak is a mind-trick. I totally forgot about that actually, I was just thinking of cloak as a game mechanic and not as how it would be categorized for jedi. Basically this means that cloak should not be an ability that works 100% of the time.

Obi-wan said it anakin that mind-trick only works on the weak-minded. If that's the case, given how cloak works and is categorized as a mind-trick in the game, that would indicate that all npc's, creatures, PC's and other jedi are all weak minded.

I don't think anyone would agree that a master jedi and some jedi knights and many creatures would always fall for mind-tricks. Therefore, force cloak should have skill checks placed on it and the supposed snare should not be put in place. What this means is that a cloaking jedi will have an opportunity to cloak, but you'd have to pass a skill check to successfully do so when your within sight range of characters. You'd have to pass a skill check to successfully cloak basically. Once you pass that check, then cloak would work as it does now.

So my point is that the devs have already given force cloak to use where it works in a manner that it's not supposed to work. Prime example of a mind-trick not working was when luke tried to use one on jabba to make him release Han and leia. It didn't work because evidently either luke's skill with it was weak or jabba was strong minded. So we should be happy the devs even allow us to have cloak in the manner it's in now. It certainly is not working like mind-tricks are supposed to work. Now that the devs want to add the things they inadvertantly didn't fix the first time, All the powers jedi want to complain that they are getting nerfed.

I'm sorry, everything that reduces an ability is not a bad nerf like the jedi boards make all nerfs to be. IF anyone thinks these changes are a bad nerf (besides the snare part, I don't agree with that, just be glad you don't get the root like rangers will get when they are invisible), Then you really have no clue that you've been spoiled through the devs mistakes.

Was there anything wrong with cloak before.....sure was!

Could it have been fixed so it works without the exploits....sure could have!

Was cloak always working like the devs drew it up in the first place....can't say, but they are making changes anyway....whether they are to correct a past mistake or to better balance the ability is anyone's guess.......in my opinion though, any ability that allows you to have either an instant "I win" or "I can't lose" button should not be in this game.

A.I. was an "I win" buttong until they added a snare and increased it's initial cost.

Cloak is an "I can't lose" button but had no changes until now.

What's fair is fair and as I said, the snare shouldn't be part of cloaking at all.However, it does make sense because what your essentailly doing is tricking the person in believing your not there, any fast or sudden movement would break that hold you have over them and they would suddenly become aware. So we must pick our poison, either have a snare or have a skill check against cloak.

So I don't see it as a nerf at all, I see it as an attempt to balance things, except the devs are picking the wrong way to do that. I personally think the skill check system is better, because for one thing, you might be able to fool a humanoid being, but a rancor and other feirce animals have heightened senses as well as high level jedi, you shouldn't be able to instantly cloak from them and only be revealed when you turn it off or your force bar runs out.

For jedi, all of you who believe that certain abilities are working fine and just because you don't see an issue with them, doesn't mean they won't or can't be changed. Whether you like it or not, this game is forever changing and you must roll with the punches or you'll never be happy with any change the devs make. THis is the very reasoning I had to use with CU, if I didn't believe this, then I would definitely not be still paying to play this game. You can find fun in this game if you look for it. We have no control over how far the devs will go with their changes. Complaining only takes away your fun. Not saying everyone should stop complaining, but certainly there are better things we could be doing rather than crying about one or two abilities that are changing. Adjusting is a part of anything we do, if we can't adjust to the changes, then we have no business even playing this game because it is clearly stated to all of use when we read the rules, TOS and install the game that gameplay will change. This is not a single player game, it's an online game which must keep evolving, good or bad, or it will simply not have lasted this long.

My response to this situation is "so what", if they change something you dont' like. Don't complain in the typical baby tantrum responses I see in these forums. You politely state that you disagree, present a way in which you think things can be improved and if things keep getting worse or your not enjoying the direction the game is going in, then that's an indication that it's time to move on.

FYI, for those that like to know such information. I am not biased to any profession. I will never be for something because I have that profession and vice versa. With that said, I am not a master defender and I am not a 0400 powers jedi. I have neither cloak or A.I. My reasoning is simply from logic and understanding of how things are supposed to be in star wars (I know everthing is not like it's supposed to be, but that doesn't mean I can't stick to certain principles). If GL, LA and whomever else has the authority to give correct information says to us that jedi-mind tricks don't always work, then that tells me that the devs should take that into consideration and if at all possible, they should make mind-trick abilities have a chance at working and not a 100% chance. As for having to be outside of a certain range to even cloak, well that's not a chance thing, that's a system in place to keep people from exploiting. If you can cloak at any range without having to make a skill check, then that creates room for major exploits.

---

---

BooleScaric wrote:
looks like snare is the main answer to many problems.. Defender got AI? Snare it... now the cloakers.. but you are right, i want the CM beingf snared, when they youe their debuffing etc.

---