Jedi Archive
Thread: -40 Combat Speed Debuff. Does It Need a Nerf? Hard Numbers Inside.
slappydude wrote:
Ternque01 wrote:
In order to conform to the 10% you think that a skill should never exceed, both Doctor and Jedi speed buffs should never exceed +8 combat speed increase. Do you really want that?
When did I ever say 10%? You are confusing me with someone else.
I don't care what the percentage is. I just want whatever percentage is there to be equal. Is that too much to ask for?
It is. Debuff that can be applied in battle are ALWAYS greater than buffs that can be applied in safety and calm. Always.
Take Armor Break. There is no way for a person with armor on to buff up their armor before a battle so that the percent decrease that Armor Break applies is cancelled ot by the percent increase that an "armor buff" would provide.
How would you feel if your Armor Break was useless in combat because your target had to ability to increase the protection of their armor so high that it would CANCEL OUT the effects of your Armor Break? I think you wouldn't want such an armor buff in the game, correct?
And I rarely have fights shorter than 20 minutes these days.
Vicci A'Tivo - Elder "in your face" Bounty Hunter
SpunkyKuma wrote:
It was very noticable using a 1.19 speed LS and improved forcespeed, cooldowns seemed ALOT slower than using a LS without forcespeed.
And I rarely have fights shorter than 20 minutes these days.
Do some testing and post the results. I have screenshots that can be posted to prove my results.
Furthermore, one minutes test intervals were sufficient to determine the effects of the debuff, especially considering that two separate tests were done and the results were averaged.
Just because you have a 20 minute fight doesn't mean you need a 20 minute test period to get accurate results. An example of a poor duration for the test would be 10 seconds, where only a few attacks could be measured. Considering that I ran previous tests that had only 40 second intervals, and that the results from those tests matches closely what I have aquired from the longer 60 second testing runs, it would strongly imply that the results gathered from the 60 second test interval are accurate.
Feel free to test this yourself. I conducted these tests with the intent of bringing everyone on the forums a TRUE idea of what this skill is capable of, and I am extremely happy with the results.
/rant on
There is no I WIN BUTTON ANYMORE.
ImpPull wrote:
/rant on
There is no I WIN BUTTON ANYMORE.
Quit asking for the DEVS to nerf the game, instead push for actual fixes. Fixes against exploits, bugs, and just overall enhancement.
*Yes I read the original post, and a few others. Glad to see someone did a little research on this, but I'm sure somewhere is apost saying it's not fair it needs to be nerfed. I don't have forcespeed 2, I'm not speed capped, my saber sucks...... bla bla bla, deal quit asking for nerfs against jedi professions and regular professions and start asking for fixes*
/rant off
Ternque01 wrote:
slappydude wrote:
Ternque01 wrote:
In order to conform to the 10% you think that a skill should never exceed, both Doctor and Jedi speed buffs should never exceed +8 combat speed increase. Do you really want that?
When did I ever say 10%? You are confusing me with someone else.
I don't care what the percentage is. I just want whatever percentage is there to be equal. Is that too much to ask for?
It is. Debuff that can be applied in battle are ALWAYS greater than buffs that can be applied in safety and calm. Always.
Take Armor Break. There is no way for a person with armor on to buff up their armor before a battle so that the percent decrease that Armor Break applies is cancelled ot by the percent increase that an "armor buff" would provide.
How would you feel if your Armor Break was useless in combat because your target had to ability to increase the protection of their armor so high that it would CANCEL OUT the effects of your Armor Break? I think you wouldn't want such an armor buff in the game, correct?
Ternque01 wrote:
AtonuTragona wrote:
This looks like a huge unbalanced issue to me. 10% decrease in attack speed seems more reasonable.
Well, take a look at the effects that only a +10 Force Speed 1 buff did. It was a 18\16 -100% = 112.5% - 100% = 12.5% increase from that skill.
Jedi have the ability to get either a +20 or +15 Force Speed 2 buff, if I remember correctly, which would put the speed increase WELL over the 10% debuff that you call for. Hell... Force Speed 1 is more than enough to cancel out those effects.
Now, anyone can see that a buff that is able to be applied outside of battle, during times ofpeace should NEVER be as strong as a debuff that can only be applied in battle. Being able to buff oneself by +30 attack speed via mushroom pie and Force Speed 2 would essentially make this debuff not worth even being included in the game.
For many professions, this -40 combat speed debuff is one of maybe two or threeuseful skills they can use in realtime combat. To see it nerfed down to 10%, when only Force Speed 1 overcomes it by 2.5% ALONE would be a tremendous tragedy for the diversity of this game and the usefulness of many professions in combat.
It would be interesting to see how much a player with Force Speed 2 and Mushroom Pie has their attacks sped up by... probably MUCH, MUCH larger than the 10% you claim is balanced. I don't think Jedi would be too happy if Force Speed 2 was decreased to a +8 combat speed bonus because AtonuTragona said it was inbalanced because it exceeded 10%....
Wow... I can see there was a misunderstanding here....
I thought you were asking for Jedi to have the ability to have buffs that would be equal in percentage to the debuffs, i.e. the combat speed debuff shouldn't exceed the amount that Jedi can buff themselves.
I thought THAT was what you were talking about, and I appologize for misreading what you said, as it is incredibly hard to pull out your exact meaning from only one sentence saying that you "want the percentages to be equal".
I'm not here to be biased. I'm here to protect a skill that was even unbalanced to begin with.
I'm starting to get the idea that you just want Jedi and doctor speed buffs to have the +25 combat speed modifier. It is kinda hard to tell exactly what you are talking about, so PLEASE calm down!
Ternque01 wrote:
slappydude wrote:
Ternque01 wrote:
A 26.4% decrease in a target's attack speed in well within balanced parameters for a debuff attack.It is in no danger of disrupting game balance.
that entirely depends on your point of view. Technically anything that gives one person an advantage over another disrupts balance. While your information is interesting I disagree with your conclusion as it is obviously coming from a biased perspective.
Personally, I think CM debuffs should be nerfed to be equal to jedi or jedi should be boosted to match CM. I'm not saying that one should be better than the other.
The only way to bring balance to the game is to actually ensure that one profession is not more powerful than another profession.
Jedi armor break probably reduces the effectiveness of non-Jedi armor by around 60%. Even with a top-notch, 75% chance of Armor Break mitigation armor slice, there is only a 75% chance that the effects of armor break will be mitigated to an unknown extent.By your line of logic, non-Jedi should be able to get an armor buff that not only INCREASES their armor protection while not armor broke, but is also sufficiently strong to make sure that if they are armor broken, that the effects of armor break will be no different than if they were being protected by their unbuffed armor. In other words, your armor break would NEVER bring a non-Jedi's armor rating below the actually stated resists on the armor.
Do you think THAT would be fair??? Open your eyes!!! Armor Break is a INCREDIBLY more deadly debuff than the combat speed debuff. You make a 60% change in the ability of non-Jedi to protect themselves.
While you are busy striving for balance of the combat speed debuff, be sure to call for an armor buff that non-Jedi can apply before a battle that would completely negate your armor break if you apply it, yet healthily increase their armor protection if armor break is NOT applied.
Do it.
It is the same thing....
To clarify your statement about armor break and AB reduction, I was under the assumption that Improved Saber Armor Break was a 65% reduction of armor absorption, and that the 75% slice reduced that 65% by 75%, to around 19% reduction of armor absorption. As far as I can tell armor break reduction is not a % chance, just a % reduction.
hamhamthe3rd wrote:
as you said before, you only tested for so long and the method used is only so perfect. you didnt start at 0 and go to 60 in each trial, in fact the elapsed time is different between all your tests. i think the percent of error is what gave you those 2 extra attacks you saw not the addition of force speed.
You are incorrect about this. The 60 second interval started at the first attack. If there was no attack that occured during the last 4 seconds of the interval, it wasn't recorded because it did not occur.
Look at this picture. The brackets will indicate the boundaries of the interval, and "l" shapes will indicate the attacks. The "." will indicate periods of time in between. This is how I took the data:
[l.....l......l.......l.....l......l.....l.....l......l......l......l.....l...]..l.....l
Notice that only 12 attacks fell in the 60 second interval.
Yes, there is room for error, but let me argue that the 60 second time interval was sufficient to get a reliable number. The above graph shows that the attacks are about 4.7 seconds apart. If, indeed, the actual interval was that and I increased the testing interval to 10 minutes, you would see the attacks per second go from 12/60 = .2 to about 128/600 = .213. This is a difference of 100% - .2/.213 = 100% - .94 = 6%.
So basically, the difference that you would see in a 10 minute test would be + or - 6% of what I reported. Keep in mind that this is a broad way of calculating the error that could occur, but it is sufficient. We could, just for safety's sake increase the error percentage by about 10%. This would vary the final result between 23.8% and 29%, and I'm being VERY generous. With the 6% error, the result would be between 24.8% and 28%.
In addition, the 26.4% attack speed decrease from the -40 attack speed debuff was achieved through an average of the results from the two tests. Also, in addition, I ran two, previous tests over only a 40 second interval, and the results were slightly above the 26.4% number. If I remember, the average of those two results was 27.5%, but you can see that a 60 second interval has a greater probability of being more accurate.
Message Edited by Ternque01 on 08-13-2005 12:51 PM
AriasImmortal wrote:
To clarify your statement about armor break and AB reduction, I was under the assumption that Improved Saber Armor Break was a 65% reduction of armor absorption, and that the 75% slice reduced that 65% by 75%, to around 19% reduction of armor absorption. As far as I can tell armor break reduction is not a % chance, just a % reduction.
Armour Break Reduction: (chance to mitigate Armour Break effects)
Level 1 | 25% (chance of) Armor Break Reduction | 20% | No Components
Level 2 | 50% (chance of) Armor Break Reduction | 40% | Shock Absorbant Padding
Level 3 | 75% (chance of) Armor Break Reduction | 60% | Reactive Micro Plating
The 25%, 50%, and 75% are the chances of having armor break mitigated. I don't know the actual value mitigated because I haven't tested it or seen any done 
The 20%, 40%, and 60% are the percentages of armor slicing customization and have nothing to do with chances of mitigation or the percentages mitigated. These percentages simply show how much a piece of armor has been modified by a smuggler, and any one piece of armor cannot be modified beyond 100% customization.
hamhamthe3rd wrote:
as you said before, you only tested for so long and the method used is only so perfect. you didnt start at 0 and go to 60 in each trial, in fact the elapsed time is different between all your tests. i think the percent of error is what gave you those 2 extra attacks you saw not the addition of force speed.