Jedi Archive
Thread: the final straw
Message Edited by Morda on 08-26-2004 04:39 PM
iskareot wrote:
n5ygy wrote:
/agree 100%
I bought this game for the sole purpose of role playing a Jedi. Yet, it is impossible to do. I feel cheated of 7 months of my life, and all the money I have spent on this game.
you bought the wrong game if this was the case...I really think you did.
I think they had already come to that conclusion.
But this is an RPG by name. The R does stand for roleplaying, and since this is a star wars game and they even say you can become a Jedi on the box you would sure think you would have a good chance at being able to roleplay a jedi. People did have hopes that this would happen. Most of those people have given up and realized it just won't happen.
I think this is more of an underlying problem in general for commercial RPGs though. Combat will always be a large part of any RPG only because it is what sells. Maybe some developer will come along in the future and put in the effort to make both systems work very well ingame. The Roleplaying aspect is a hard one to achieve though, probably because the combat aspect is so easy.
Diorchas wrote:
Is there any possible way that I could've illustrated my point more succinctly and eloquently than this guy did? It's this attitude and the Dev's willingness to cater to it that absolutely ruined PC Jedi.
DraxTIO wrote:
Diorchas wrote:
First and foremost, I'll say that my main character is a straight crafter/merchant.
LOL, um, your main crafter/merchant is the one that becomes FS. If you want to become a Jedi, you're going to HAVE to make him a combatant. Otherwise, upon unlocking your second slot, you would have to redo ALL of the steps on your second, new character to make him FS as well.
Jedi in a video game = combat profession. Always has been, always will.
Just a hint for you, kid... Jedi existed before KotOR and all the other FPS games featuring Jedi. Jedi are not a combat profession, they are a moral calling. The SWG Devs have MADE Jedi in this game exactly what you say they are and that's the essence of my point.
Well I read your main post and this one and it struck me. What you want is impossible with todays technology. I think you would like a game that can identify 'Jedi' behaviour to determine who has the opportunity to become a Jedi. Without some kind of AI that would be near impossible to do.
After that I think you go off in your own world of what you think Jedi are. Watch EP2 again where Obi-Wan is talking to Mace and Yoda, concerned about Anakin. Read between the lines of that scene. That tells me that Jedi in general are pretty much like everyone else. Cocky, smart mouthed, cynicaland so on. More than likely those would be the younger Jedi, as portrayed by Anakin quite well thoughout EP2.More so, that wasan example showing thatJedi are not as White Knight as you may think they are.
So SWG Dev's may have made the system for advancement in the Skill Trees, but it's the individual players that make up the Star Wars feel of the game. There is nothing the Dev's can do to make people act like anything in a MMOG.
Alteran Chase - FRS Knight in training
Second, if you bought this game for the sole purpose of role playing a Jedi, that's on you... not the Devs. It was very unrealistic, especially when the game first came out. Much to my dismay, it may now be a very realistic goal if you are able to put the time in now. There are going to be tons of baby jedi running around. Your hope of role playing a jedi master as a casual gamer is already dead of course. And in my opinion, probably should be. Having Jedi masters be casual gamers has too many other terrible ramifications.
Third, what do you mean SWG Jedi are nothing like real star wars jedi? Are you trying to tell me that when Yoda told Luke he needed to complete his training, Yoda didn't mean that Luke still had about 50,000 more Giant Baz Nitches to kill??? See behind the scenes Luke was slaughtering thousands of innocent creatures in the name of the light side of the Force. It's in the books.
Good post.
Jhahadir wrote:
So SWG Dev's may have made the system for advancement in the Skill Trees, but it's the individual players that make up the Star Wars feel of the game. There is nothing the Dev's can do to make people act like anything in a MMOG.
Not True. Devs CAN make people act a certain way by how theyencourage certain behaviors and discourage others. KOTOR isa perfect example of this. There are many choices one can make there. None of them is necessarily wrong, but each givesvarying degrees of light and dark points. After a little while you become very good at "thinking and acting" in whicheverdirection you want to go. The end result is that you end up creating a character that is a sum of his actions and you can be very light, very dark or anything in between depending upon what you do.
In this game, however, there is only one path to becoming a master and that is slicing things up with a lightsaber. Heck...you don't even get any xp for healing other people with the force. If KOTOR can be coded then something similar could be coded in this gameif they just took the time to think it through and do it. It would still have limitations. It would still not be perfect, but it would be a much more enjoyable experience. And if you didn't want to do it then you could just keep hacking stuff up.
Too much of this game reminds me of Diablo at times. Hack stuff up to gain experience points so you can level up to get better weapons to hack stuff up with. That can be fun at times, but it can also get very boring.
Quadork wrote:Here's what I don't understand about your post. If you truely want to roleplay a jedi, why must you be a master? You can unlock your slot via little to no combat and from DAY ONE you can call yourself a "jedi master"You can set up a house, high in the hills and hold clinics to train younger jedi, all while in deep meditation (although what you'll train them is beyond me).You seem to want the "master jedi" title above your head, a true sign of hubris and something that you surely believe is against the "moral calling" that is jedi.
I understand your point, Quadork, and I also understand why you would think that my wanting to be able to attain Jedi Mastery is hubris.
But my concern is more that I am, and other casual players/roleplayers are, expressly excluded from that level of Jedi skills. While there is still a PvP element (and I believe there should be between Dark Jedi and Light Jedi) to being Jedi then what good does it do to SAY my character is a Jedi Master when he's nothing more than a Padawan? Getting your butt kicked in PvP is not fun, especially for a roleplayer who doesn't really want to PvP at all (in general).
The whole point is not that I "want to be a Jedi Master." It's that I want it to be available to a different playing style and not a PvP-only goal. I don't mind if the road is long as long as it's interesting. The road to Mastery should not be short or easy. But it should incorporate roleplaying, since Mastery is specifically about becoming more "at one with the Force", not about how many enemies you kill.
You're right that in one way I want "Jedi Master" above my character's head. Because it would represent a long, fulfilling roleplaying journey, not because I want other people to go slack jawed in awe when I walk by. That's not fulfilling. Completing an interesting, introspective story arc is fulfilling. And that tag would mean that I saw it through and can be proud of what I've accomplished with my character.
Let me clarify something... I'm not saying that Jedi are cookie cutter white knights. Just as I have already said that they are not anti-combat. I'm saying it's situational. There is room for character development, but the Jedi have a code that they follow. They are the only "profession" included in the game that that can be said for. You're right... Anakin was cocky. Obi Wan was wry and gave in to rage at least once in the movies (when he was little more than a Padawan. Compare to how he was as a Master and you see the further illumination of my point re: introducing RPing to Jedi selection). Qui-Gon was impulsive. They're not perfect. But they STRIVE to uphold a certain moral code and that is the difference. They might not always SUCCEED, but they are always trying. Can you honestly say that you've seen any "Jedi" in-game even making the attempt?
Diorchas wrote:
Now, about your post. I agree with you that it should be hard to become Jedi. In fact, I think it should be PROHIBITIVELY hard. But I disagree with the chosen avenue. Personally, I believe it's exceptionally lazy. If the Devs wanted to do it right, how difficult could it be to hire a a few GMs whose sole purpose is to serve as a Jedi Council In Hiding (they could even put it in Aurilia so the programming didn't go to waste). The prospective Jedi could do static quests (like they will be doing soon), but they won't be allowed to progress to the next level of Jedi-hood until they've shown that the PLAYER is capable of acting like Jedi.
. . . .
I really can't see how such a thing would be hard to implement, honestly. Who knows... maybe there's even a way to implement continuity. After all, PvP is definitely Dark Side and, frankly, not a lot of the PvPers would be interested in RPing Light Side Jedi. So they could make Light Siders roleplayers and Dark Siders PvPers. It's certainly consistent with canon. And by definition you'd see PvPers getting more powerful faster (grinders will get skill boxes faster than non-grinders) which would support the "Dark Side is not more powerful, just easier... more seductive."
The solution you propose from a role-playing point of view is excellent. However, it is completely impractical. Each player wishing to role-play their way to Jedi would have to be tracked by either a human being or by software to see if they were behaving in a "Jedi-like" manner (whatever that means).
Software simply isn't capable of this. Period. Give Moore's Law a few more cycles and maybe, just maybe this will be possible in 15 years, but right now? Forget about it.
Okay, so how about human adjudicators of "Jedi-like" bahaviors? Leaving aside the very real privacy issues,(I don't want someone watchALL my actions/conversations in game, thanks) there's the time issue. How many hours a month do you play? How long would it take a human to "grade" your actions as Jedi-like or un Jedi-like? If you do the math, the $15 per montheach of uspays isn't going to anywhere near cover the salary of the people Sony would have to hire as adjudicators.
Another practical matter: Lets say people are hired to decide who gets to become Jedi. BillyBobSkydude becomes a Jedi. Are you going to 100% trust that he became one fairly? Isn't part of you going to wonder that maybe, he got an easier Adjudicator than you did? Maybe he even "knows someone" at SOE and got the Jedi character as a favor? "Unfair!" people would soonbe screaming "The people becoming Jedi aren't worthy!" Think about it, you know it would happen....
Whatever solution is used to decide if a person is worthy of being a Jedi, it has to be something that is 100% automated. It's just too expensive (not to mention prone to, let us say, human falability)to do anything else. The current system meets that requirement and I have yet to hear of a practical alternative.
May the Force be with you.
Buxley