Jedi Archive
Thread: the final straw
Zarathustra wrote:Question:So, you're saying if you open your slot you're unhappy because you're not going to be able to role-play a master jedi immediately? Why don't you look at it from the aspect of you get to role-play a jedi struggling to make his way into the jedi order and learn the powers of jedi?You might have a lot more fun and not see it as a grind for experience then. No one is force you to grind a ton immediately for a month straight to get to the master spot. You can roleplay the journey just as well, maybe even roleplay your own fall to the darkside.And yes, you'll probably have to change your character to combat to open up the slot, get used to it for leveling jedi.Also, you don't HAVE to PvP for end-game. You don't have to join the FRS. And even if you couldn't resist, any of us are pushing for changes for FRS on the horizon, and if you actually role-played a jedi out there, and didn't grind and took some time to have fun instead of the mind-numbing of killing rancors over and over, you'll probably arrive in the FRS in a time where it actually works, and it will be a completely different ballgame in it's current broken and useless state.I'm sorry, I don't see the problem.
Zara, I specifically said I wasn't looking to get something for nothing. If the system encourages Jedi to act like Jedi, I'd grit my teeth and grind my tail off. I'm not asking for special treatment. I'm asking for roleplayers, crafters and casual gamers to have an avenue to enjoying the Jedi experience. As it stands right now, the Jedi are exactly what my erstwhile friends before have said. A combat prof. That just turns my stomach.
I guarantee you, if I had any faith in the system (or in the Devs, for that matter) I'd happily "RP the journey" as you call it. In fact, to me that's what being a Jedi is all about. The journey. The problem is that in order to attain Jedi Master I don't have to prove I've learned how to be one with the Force. All I have to prove is that I can make a great combat template, spend utterly insane amounts of time grinding and pwn other Jedi. That's just not consistent with what it means to be a Jedi. That's my complaint. Even if I DID try to make a Jedi it's a dead profession to me because I cannot fathom throwing myself into enforced PvP. The very idea is abhorrent to me.
n5ygy wrote:
/agree 100%
I bought this game for the sole purpose of role playing a Jedi. Yet, it is impossible to do. I feel cheated of 7 months of my life, and all the money I have spent on this game.
you bought the wrong game if this was the case...I really think you did.
Diorchas wrote:
IdrisTycho wrote:
Diorchas wrote:
Jackal,
Your post illustrates my point perfectly. The Devs have made Jedi into a combat profession rather than as a moral calling. What most people are doing in the game has absolutely nothing to do with being Jedi except that they can use a lightsaber and wear Jedi robes. Very little they do is consistent with the code of the Jedi. No, it's not your fault for playing the Jedi as the Devs created it. That's the problem, though.
I am not saying that you are entirely wrong, but I do recall a TON of fighting by the Jedi in the movies... Jedi are not pacifists. They do not avoid a fight. They just don't start them, and where possible they try to talk their opponents out of the fight. To say that the Jedi are not combatants is clearly incorrect though. They spend the majority of their lives learning the intricate art of fighting with a lightsaber.
Yes... in defense of the powerless, the wronged, the downtrodden. Can you with a straight face tell me that the proposed PvP system has anything at all to do with what the Jedi are about?
Let me beg the question a bit: Are there really Jedi in this timeline? (rhetorical) Since the answer is no, then the so called Jedi Knights are not even really that. They have nothing to do with the old republic. To insist that they have to embody all of the rules, morals, and training of the old republic is flawed as well.
I think a PVP system is needed in order to make the game fun. The one chosen might have worked with more Jedi playing the game, but right now there just aren't enough to support it. Regardless of your views on PVP, you have to admit that without player interaction on some level the game gets stale. Role-playing is one way of getting that interaction, and PVP is another. Not all of us like role-playing just like not all of us like PVP. The problem is, how does a development team make it challenging enough for the PVPer so that not EVERYONE in the game is a Jedi, while at the same time providing some room for role-playing as well.
It's a difficult balance with which any MMORPG has to struggle. No, I don't think the current system is anything like the Jedi from the movies, but what matters more to most players isn't this, what matters most are: Is it fun?Is there enough depth to the game play to make each encounter unique? Can players enjoy the game while role-playing? Whether they get Jedi exactly right is largely irrelevant.
Can anyone answer this?
Let me beg the question a bit: Are there really Jedi in this timeline? (rhetorical) Since the answer is no, then the so called Jedi Knights are not even really that. They have nothing to do with the old republic. To insist that they have to embody all of the rules, morals, and training of the old republic is flawed as well.
I think a PVP system is needed in order to make the game fun. The one chosen might have worked with more Jedi playing the game, but right now there just aren't enough to support it. Regardless of your views on PVP, you have to admit that without player interaction on some level the game gets stale. Role-playing is one way of getting that interaction, and PVP is another. Not all of us like role-playing just like not all of us like PVP. The problem is, how does a development team make it challenging enough for the PVPer so that not EVERYONE in the game is a Jedi, while at the same time providing some room for role-playing as well.
It's a difficult balance with which any MMORPG has to struggle. No, I don't think the current system is anything like the Jedi from the movies, but what matters more to most players isn't this, what matters most are: Is it fun? Is there enough depth to the game play to make each encounter unique? Can players enjoy the game while role-playing? Whether they get Jedi exactly right is largely irrelevant.
I'm not asking for the PvPers to be denied their fun. All I'm saying is that the Devs are ignoring a big part of their playerbase by making it PvP ONLY.
You're right, Morda. I could become a Padawan and roleplay a Jedi. But a Padawan is all my character would ever be. No one who has ever seen the movies can make sense of the idea that in order to attain Jedi Mastery you have to be the most uber killer. Jedi Masters are Masters because their understanding of the Force is more profound than younger, less experienced Jedi, not because they killed the most Sith.
I want to be clear, here... I am NOT trying to deny the combat folks their fun. I understand that a certain amount of leeway must be given. But to have the ONLY path to Mastery be something that is directly antithetical to what the Jedi stand for? I mean... it just boggles the mind. Give me an alternative way to attaining Mastery if I don't want to PvP. Heck, make it five times harder. But give me a way to ROLEPLAY a Jedi like Jedi should be and still attain Mastery! Do you see what I'm saying?
Well I always wanted a Jedi NPC quester where I would go to them and they would give me a quest for either pvm or pvp like.
The quester gives me Info on a NPC Dark jedi who is on Nabboo killing townsfolk he has killed 56 of them and we need him brought to justice. I would then go out and talk to towns people about this Dark jedi..Find out what info I can. By completeing this questI am given a jedi point, Once I collected enough Jedi points I could go to a NPC jedi master (like faction points) use them to one day become a master jedi.
I would think the system would be very long but with enough diffrent type of content to keep me glued to my seat. I need 200k jedi points to reach master you can only get a max of 5 jedi points a day. But to add pvp into the game where a Light jedi and a Dark jedi willingly put them selfs on the quester...Where you can accept like a (bounty hunter) a mission as a light jedi to find a Dark..who has killed alot of good NPC like townsfolk,Gungans,ect. Or reveres it and the light jedi has killed alot of Borvo and NPC dark,s
Would make the GCW alot more in depth for jedi and at the same time getting the feel of protecting the people and able to pvp if you wish.
But as a non combat jedi..they take peacekeeper missions where the outcome would come from your questions.You tell the dark adept that killing these people would not get them anywhere, (Have a jedi lore skill) where you can talk them down to laying down thier saber and peacefuly going away. There are so many quests that could go with this witch would make jedi a more quest based/RP/pvp char you could go any way you wanted to with the jedi..
But there would have to be some type of penalty like if I die on my quest I loose 5 jedi points..or if I fail to answer the right questions and the Dark kills them anyways my peaceful solution failed..loose 5 points..and in pvp making it more then mindless killing put points at stake if you win the fight you gain 10 points instead of 5 but if ya loose you loose 5 points.
I really think that would give everyone that has a jedi so much content that would keep all walks of life player happy. Even when JTL comes out make jedi space missions..anyways i have talked to much let me shut up now. hehe
Diorchas wrote:
You're right, Morda. I could become a Padawan and roleplay a Jedi. But a Padawan is all my character would ever be. No one who has ever seen the movies can make sense of the idea that in order to attain Jedi Mastery you have to be the most uber killer. Jedi Masters are Masters because their understanding of the Force is more profound than younger, less experienced Jedi, not because they killed the most Sith.
I want to be clear, here... I am NOT trying to deny the combat folks their fun. I understand that a certain amount of leeway must be given. But to have the ONLY path to Mastery be something that is directly antithetical to what the Jedi stand for? I mean... it just boggles the mind. Give me an alternative way to attaining Mastery if I don't want to PvP. Heck, make it five times harder. But give me a way to ROLEPLAY a Jedi like Jedi should be and still attain Mastery! Do you see what I'm saying?
I completely and totally agree with you that there should be another way to become a Master and just mindlessly hacking defenseless creatures into bits is boring and not immersive, but it is the only way right now. Maybe somewhere down the road the devs will clean it up and put in themeparks, quests and missions that give xp for making the right moral decisions instead. Many players (myself included) think the devs have fixated more than enough time already upon Jedi, however,and although it still isn't right they just need to get it to a playable state and move on to something new. So much is broken in this game. So much needs attention.
My suggestion to you is this. Don't quit.Look at the FS stuff and get whatever looks like it is fun and useful to you without changing your character anymore than you are comfortable with. When JTL comes out play a pilot and have fun there. Pick up more FS stuff as you can andmaybe when you finally do get enough to become a Padawanit willhave changed somewhat. In the meantime post good, thoughtful and even tempered posts and try to get something new added so people really can be rewarded for acting like a Jedi and not a mindless butcher. I have to warn you though, the average players love for Jedi is almost nil and you will be flamed mercilessly because "Jedi have gotten enough already" so you will have to brave much anger.
The only other alternative is to roleplay a low level padawan like I suggested, but you could also delete that Jedi if he is in negative xp too far and make a new one once a new system emerges. The current state of thingsis disappointing to say the least, but there are no other acceptable alternatives at this time. Take your time and don't get caught up in the hype. I know it seems like everyone and their granny is going to have a Jedi soon and you want one too, but I would wager that 90% of those people will get it, play it a few weeks and quit altogether because it isn't as fun as they thought it wouldbe and there is nothing left to do. You might well be in that 90% if you ripped your character to shreds and became a Jedi too so don't do it. Don't fall into that trap. It isn't worth it.
Irah wrote:
Not trying to be a jerk or anything, but I just noticed something funny about the math in that post...
200k points to reach master at a MAX of 5 pts per day....
200,000 pts/ 5 pts = 40,000 days
40,000 days / 365 days = 109.59 YEARS to reach Master Jedi
LOL. I have heard of some long grinds, but that is ridiculous. The funny thing is that the combat revamp probably still won't be done by then.
I will definitely be here for JtL. From everything I've heard it's actually (GASP!) done well. Besides, it's GOT to be more fun than grinding Jedi XP or working as a crafter.
Still, from what I know of the Jedi system it just doesn't seem like it would suit me at all and that's a shame. I'm an experienced, intelligent RPer. I realise I'd just be a lone voice in the wilderness when it came to actually RPing a Jedi, but I'd do it. I'm a pretty patient guy, so I could deal with Jedi-haters who hate my character just because he's Jedi. I don't put much stock into knee-jerk opinions like that. Indeed, it took a LONG time of being in this game for me to get to the point where I've just completely lost faith in the Devs' ability to make this game Star Warsy.
Anyway, even if I quit now (which I probably will) I'll still be back for JtL. So if you see a rebel pilot named Diorchas give me a wave. hehehe
Buxley wrote:Diorchas, thank you for the thoughtful, well-reasoned post. That's not to say I agree with you, but I can certainly understand your point of view.I understand your having a vision for your main character: to be a craftsman and ultimately a Jedi and Rebel Pilot. Well, I think most everyone who bought the game has the vision of being a Jedi and a pilot. Who wouldn't? I certainly do. The problem is, how can this be done within the context of a game and still make Jedi reasonably rare?[An aside: "Jedi aren't rare! I see them dueling in starports everyday!" Yes, that true. I see a Jedi or two in my travels every day as well. I also see uncounted hundreds of other players that aren't Jedi everyday. Jedi exist, and until the TEFs and/or visibility rules get a makeover, we're going to continue to see them but, as a percentage of the population, they're rare. A few percent at most.]If you make the assumption that Jedi should be rare, it follows that becoming a Jedi has to be very, very hard. Otherwise everyone would be one. Being a craftsman and wanting to be a Jedi is, I'm afraid, simply not enough. The only fair way to winnow the vast multitude of players who WANT to be a Jedi into a much smaller number is by making the process so difficult that most everyone either 1) gives up part way through or 2) throws up their hands immediately and says it's too hard.Remember, "hard" doesn't necessarily mean solo-your-way-to-the-bottom-of-the-Deathwatch-Bunker hard, hard can mean give-up-your-original-vision-for-this-character hard. That's what you have to consider.I understand. Giving up Master Bounty Hunter (my original vision for my character) to become a seemingly-endless succession of other classes was hard for me. But ultimately, I think it will be worth it.May the Force be with you.Buxley
You're welcome for the tone of the post. I'm not prone to going off half-cocked (no innuendo jokes here, please. hehehe) and it took me a long time to get so disgusted with the direction this game is going to actually feel like posting here was worth the time. I have to admit, I'm pleasantly surprised at the civility I've seen. I've seen lots of other people flamed here for posting things that are a lot less inflammatory than what I did. **Shrugs** Ah well. I'm not complaining.
Now, about your post. I agree with you that it should be hard to become Jedi. In fact, I think it should be PROHIBITIVELY hard. But I disagree with the chosen avenue. Personally, I believe it's exceptionally lazy. If the Devs wanted to do it right, how difficult could it be to hire a a few GMs whose sole purpose is to serve as a Jedi Council In Hiding (they could even put it in Aurilia so the programming didn't go to waste). The prospective Jedi could do static quests (like they will be doing soon), but they won't be allowed to progress to the next level of Jedi-hood until they've shown that the PLAYER is capable of acting like Jedi.
Now, I'll say immediately that this runs counter to having two different ways of attaining Mastery as it expressly excludes leet dewd powergamers, so I imagine there'd have to be some sort of concession made so everyone can do it. But at least it would open the avenue for casual gamers and roleplayers. The casual gamers, so long as they roleplay well, could be raised by the GMs to the next level. This would be hard. But it would be possible for people who don't have loads of time to waste on grinding. And if balance is an issue, the GMs could simply ensure that the numbers of Jedi-via-PvP is equal with Jedi-via-roleplay by raising a roleplayer every time someone attains status via PvP.
I really can't see how such a thing would be hard to implement, honestly. Who knows... maybe there's even a way to implement continuity. After all, PvP is definitely Dark Side and, frankly, not a lot of the PvPers would be interested in RPing Light Side Jedi. So they could make Light Siders roleplayers and Dark Siders PvPers. It's certainly consistent with canon. And by definition you'd see PvPers getting more powerful faster (grinders will get skill boxes faster than non-grinders) which would support the "Dark Side is not more powerful, just easier... more seductive."
Ultimately Light Side Masters would have bonuses to Defense-oriented Force skills, Dark Side to offense. This would work for both sides because the PvPers want to be more dangerous and deadly, while the roleplayers just want to be able to defend themselves so they can't be griefed while they roleplay.
Anyhow... I realise none of this will ever be read by the Devs. And, honestly, as much as I've cored them they'd likely be understandably loathe to listen to my suggestions in any case. hehehe But the point is still valid. There are still plenty of ways to implement a Jedi system that pleases both sides of the playerbase. It just takes a little creative thinking and a willingness to stick to their guns when it comes to making a game worth playing for its content as opposed to a game that you can't leave because they're always dangling carrots in front of you.