Jedi Archive
Thread: a CL1 has ideas for the jedi profession
pizzathehut67
Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:07 am
#14
but Jedi should be tough and jedi should NOT be nerfed.
so jedi should be tough why? because they are in the movies? SOE has trampled over any assemblance of being tru to star wars canon when they merged time periods, allowed huge numbers of jedi, killed the GCW in so many ways, killed battlefields, and countless other offenses. Because they grind more? some crafting profs grind more than others... does that mean they should have all the high ticket high profit items? Im not saying nerf jedi skills to uselessness. Im saying give jedi a slight but definite advantage but everyone should have to rely on skill. We all pay the same money and we should all have a fair game. an "elite" profession simply unbalances the game... that is to say when it is "elite" because of a higher baseline. ALL professions should have to rely on their skill to win in every situation.
NK is gear for GROUPS not nessecarly jedi. Jedi just happen to be able to solo it, MAYBE.
NK was revamped to be more inline with a jedi template and yet it drops primarily "mundane" loot. its in the patch notes somewhere.
larryburns
Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:12 am
#15
jedi are 1.5X stronger then a normal player. A normal lvl 54 player. Not a lvl 80 combat class. In fact I think some of us have found that many BH builds now are actually stronger then us. I've seen swordsman/tk builds do more damage to a jedi then the jedi doing to them. If your CL1 then you really have a limited view of the real situation. It doesn't matter if you once did combat or not. If you haven't fought recently then you wouldn't know what it's like. I feel bad for all the new jedi coming in because they think we are awsome and cool looking when all we are is flashy glowsticks of 300 damage against 7700 AB resist armor with a pre-cu saber. Defender has a lot of defenses which is ok, but powers has the shaft, enhancer is ok if you like running, and mls and healer are a joke. Jedi need to be slightly harder to get, and more powerful.
pizzathehut67
Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:13 am
#16
Geepster wrote:
Tryit out before you make any comment/judgements Isay to all non-jedi
- I think we all agree on the bug and exploits to be removed
-I agree that the grind that is so long cant be used as an excuse to be 10x stronger but people who done it do actually deserve 1.5 or 2x stronger. To grind a full template jedi it takes about 60 times longer then a normal lvl 80 combat character, how about you having a job and work 60 hours a week but still make the same amount of money as someone who does exactly the same work for30 hours a week
except we arent payed to play. you CHOSE to do that grind. So why is your opinion and 15 dollars worth more than everyone else's? no one made you do the grind... you did it for your own reasons. Other people should have less enjoyment with the game they play because of what you choose.
-There are to many jedi? Maybe, but thats what SOE wants, the ability to become jedi makes most people play the game, complain to them and not to those want to be one. And if they are able to fix the GCW and make PvP fun in a good working system (pre-cu ftw
) I glady delete my jedi help them balancing this.
READ MY POST! i didnt say make jedi harder or turn it off or stem the flood. i proposed things that would take massive jedi battles out of the cities and main paths where it wont be notices so much.
-High level caves are not designed for jedi only, they are just easier when you have the help of one or two jedis, this is not very bad in my opinion because you need combat medic/docs for those high end caves too
SOE made it a game where grouping is essential and jedi are only a part of it.
Now this is how I see it.
Have fun.
Eskie
Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:13 am
#17
pizzathehut67 wrote:
Eskie wrote:
Jedi are only 1.5 times more powerful in 1 vs 1 situations. Most Jedi abilities can be found with similar or better stats under a different name in regular professions.
The power of a Jedi stems from having more skills in one template than a regular template (Center of Being and Armor Break and+Root+). A Jedi is a jack-of-all-trades. There are only a few iconic Jedi abilities that are not present in regular professions. A short rundown:
- Improved Force Aura: Same as Improved Center of Being
- Improved Saber Armor Break: Only slighty better than Swordsman Armor Break
- Advanced Force Heal: Surpassed by any Doc 4xxx or CM 4xxx, can heal while KDed, though
- Cloak: Iconic skill, but pretty much Rifleman cover with movement ability and without the auto-decloaking if approached
- Choke: Iconic skill, although the same as a CM poison - not cureable, though.
I could go on with this list, but you get the idea.
If you can muster a group of 8 different, highly specialized regular players, they will perform on the same level as a group of 8 Jedi - but it requires coordination. The only difference is the group of 8 regular players will drop in performance a lot when a member is killed, while the group of 7 Jedi might not even notice the 8th guy missing.
The problem is most people get beaten by Jedi 1 vs 1.5 and think the same will carry over in the GCW, and dont even try it.
Complaining about being ganked by 8 Jedi does not mean Jedi are overpowered - 8 Swordsmen would have killed in the same time.
A group of riflemen complaining about being rolled by Jedi groups does not mean Jedi are overpowered - somebody just chose a bad place to fight and did not diversify his group's skills. If you are a rifleman, base defense turrets are your friend as is range. Dont try to fight Jedi in Theed where Jedi (and any other melee player) can break your line of sight easily.
The problem also is that Jedi are too easy to spot in game and dont care a lot about hiding their abilities until they actually fight. Jedi duels in Theed should not be happening on a regular basis, for example. But this can be adressed by changing the BH death penalty system, no changes to Jedi skills involved in this one.Message Edited by Eskie on 09-09-2005 01:18 PM
you overlook my point. you should not be 1.5X stronger just because you choose to play your game the way you do. Other people pay the same money. I agree that jedi should be more powerful than combat profs and should be hard to take down. but a mediocre player should have a chance to compete. combat (just like crafting) should be based upon skill and what you have learned. NOT a higher baseline just because you choose to play a different way.
You overlook my point.
I am saying SWG is a group game. In groups, Jedi are not stronger than regular professions. Jedi are stronger in 1 vs. 1 encounters, but that is limited to BH-Jedi fights and BHs get first strike (and therefore the ability to choose when and where to fight) to compensate for that.
This is in theory. In reality, I can name a few templates that cannot be killed by Jedi ever in the current live environment, and all include CM 4xxx or Doc 4xxx, and some of them have a good chance of forcing the Jedi to retreat.
If you ever get the chance, watch a duel between a Jedi and a Doc / TKA / swords hybrid.
Message Edited by Eskie on 09-09-2005 02:15 PM
Soulcaster
Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:17 am
#18
This yellow text will be my responses to your post...
-remove all bugs related to stacking pearl damage, using macros to dole out massive amounts of damage in a second, and anything else that can be used as an exploit. when coupled with the template... the 1.5X stronger thing becomes 10X stronger. These need to be removed if they havent been already (sometimes i read old posts and dont know it). Likewise, remove exploits from all other combat profs as well. These exploits should be a top priority.
Complaint: "Jedi are too powerful"
Answer from player base: "we should be... we did a long grind for it. You just need to use your skills better"
my take: Allowing any one profession to be more powerful off the bat in any fight is ludicrous. I dont care how long your grind was. Im a tailor/chef/artisan (merchant dabble). I did plenty of grinding and i dont think i deserve a better selling product or more money because i did more grinding than someother crafting prof.You grininding toa Master Merchant, or whatever, is the same as grinding to say a MCM MBH. You're right, you SHOULDN't have garaunteed instant dmg increases and you shouldn't be stronger than other players that are the same CL. HOWEVER....grinding master merchant, mcm, mbh, etc, isNOT the same as grinding jedi. 1st off keep in mind we PAY to play this game, and anyone that pays that much for 6months to get a jedi that they worked their asses off for SHOULD have some benefits. Supporting this idea is the simple fact that in the movies the Jedi are (no the be-all-end-all but) awesome combatants and are unequaled to the rest of the galaxie. So, what do you think now? Why does a combat prof feel they need more power because they had to grind more? While it is true that jedi are more powerful in the movies (although there are parts that conflict with that directly), you cant have a multi-player game have an alpha or better class. It simply unbalances the game. Why should everyone else need to be the best and most skilled PvP'er when you dont have to? Besides all that, the continuity argument is simply trash... SOE doesnt give a damn about continuity or else they wouldnt have allowed so many people to become a jedi would they?
my answer: Give jedi more special abilities and lower the bonuses on some. im not exactly sure what bonuses the jedi have, but i have heard that several are over-powered. There is one i read about that gives 500 defense while advanced aim in the rifle tree doesnt even give half that bonus in accuracy. more diverse specials (but on par with other profs) would still give jedi the edge... but would require a jedi to also have to rely mainly on their skill. Claiming "i grind so i should be what i am" is an ignorant argument. To have a game be fun for everyone... everyone should be on a generally equal playing field. As stated, jedi would still have a distinct advantage... but this advantage would come from a greater number of tactical choices and not simply having a more powerful base line.
Complaint: There are too many jedi
Answer from player base: im really not sure anyone disagrees with this... there simply are too many
my take: i think we do have an over-population problem with jedi. But im beginning to believe more and more that jedi is a pretty much empty profession. Sure, you can do grievous runs as those are geared towards jedi. But, how many times can you kill grievous before its boring as hell?
my answer: Make jedi more engaging and immersive to play. Add fun random events that can occur to a jedi. A special quest where the ghost of some ancient jedi simply appears to a jedi when they are alone and gives the quest to only that jedi for only that jedi to do. Make some sort of penalty for using force skills within cities or do somthing to make the jedi feel illegal. Honestly, if a sliced gun gets you assaulted by stormtroopers... so would tossing a saber around! Why would this reduce the number of jedi? it really wouldnt... but adding in little things like the imperials hunting you, the feel of being an outcast or illegal, and more content for jedi would help to alleviate the 30vs.30 jedi battles in theed. By content i do not mean more special loot that jedi can get... but rather engaging stories the jedi can play through.
My answer: The jedi population needs to be reduced. And while i DO NOT agree with the old perma-death system...because i dont think anyone that works that hard and pays that much for so long to have a great char, should just be completely removed becuase a BH killed him 3x. Instead i think that there my system should be put into affect.I think it should only be that you can ONLY die and lose your character when fighting OTHER JEDI. Pretty much with the FRS system. This would allow for Jedi to not worry about BH deaths, and only consentrate on the exp they lost AND it would make encountering oppising faction jedi INTENSE!!! It would be very cool to run into or hunt another jedi and you both get ready to do battle knowing that this could kill your jedi. IN ADDITION to this system i add the twist SOE could impliment. The twist is that if people DONT want to do the whole character removal thing...then they could make it so after your 3rd death to an opposing faction jedi (none of this imp killed an imp stuff), you dont lose your character...but you lose ALL of your jedi skills. and return to a new padawan/initiate again. I think this system would be a great idea, and i keep posting this idea in all the threads about it. It definately would make seeing an opposing faction jedi INTENSE!!!
Complaint: The high level caves are geared for jedi... making it too difficult for regular profs to accomplish.
answer from player base: use your skills better
my take: again, having a class that is simply better to begin with is unfair. No its not. This is not a profession that you start the game fresh out of the box with. you have to work for this...and arguing that it holds true to the canon is a nerfed argument as there no longer is any correlation to canon in this game at all.
danny-gene
Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:22 am
#19
I DONT AGREE WITH: Jedi are too powerful
Sorry but non-jedi should use there skills better. A non-jedi that knows his template can give some jedi a good fight (depending on the jedi's template)
i have seen a pikeman kill a cl80 padawan and give a jedi knight a very close fight before dying.
I think the balance between jedi and non-jedi is quite good i mean a BH/MCM is a scary thought for most jedi but a jedi with master enhancer will laugh at him. Because they have the skills to handle him.
There are so many combos of proffessions out there is great you can have the best template in the game but there will always be a template that can beat it.
Thats my OPINION anyway
Sorry but non-jedi should use there skills better. A non-jedi that knows his template can give some jedi a good fight (depending on the jedi's template)
i have seen a pikeman kill a cl80 padawan and give a jedi knight a very close fight before dying.
I think the balance between jedi and non-jedi is quite good i mean a BH/MCM is a scary thought for most jedi but a jedi with master enhancer will laugh at him. Because they have the skills to handle him.
There are so many combos of proffessions out there is great you can have the best template in the game but there will always be a template that can beat it.
Thats my OPINION anyway
Soulcaster
Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:22 am
#20
you overlook my point. you should not be 1.5X stronger just because you choose to play your game the way you do. Other people pay the same money. I agree that jedi should be more powerful than combat profs and should be hard to take down. but a mediocre player should have a chance to compete. combat (just like crafting) should be based upon skill and what you have learned. NOT a higher baseline just because you choose to play a different way.
Ok no offense here...but when the HECK was the last time you saw Obi'won lose to Jar-Jar in a fight? You think that a Jedi should be nerfed and equal to all the other professions!??!? I'm sorry but you need to leave. I do not flame people, but your line of thinking is rediculous. There SHOULD be an alpha class in this game (Jedi is it), and it SHOULD take forever to obtain and you SHOULD be better than all th eother players.
No offense but you are not even a Jedi NOR a combat profession and you want to nerf Jedi? I'm sorry but its people like you that SOE listens to, thinking you are a "nuetral viewer" to this whole galaxie and your words have a heavy impact on the game whether you know it or not.
Please stop posting about wanting to nerf jedi.
danny-gene
Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:27 am
#21
And you idea of perma-death through meeting a jedi of the opposite faction is just insane it will nenver happen and you really shouldnt have written that. Some of us enjoy base raiding if you've ever been in a base raid you'd know what i mean it can be 20 vs 20 jedi and it is a lot of fun.
It would not be fun if i had to worry about going back to having no skills because although you can get in a grind group and get skills back in about 2-3 months i wouldnt fancy doing that over and over again.
It would not be fun if i had to worry about going back to having no skills because although you can get in a grind group and get skills back in about 2-3 months i wouldnt fancy doing that over and over again.
danny-gene
Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:30 am
#22
Soulcaster wrote:
Ok no offense here...but when the HECK was the last time you saw Obi'won lose to Jar-Jar in a fight?
LOL
Eskie
Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:34 am
#23
Soulcaster wrote:
(...)My answer: The jedi population needs to be reduced. And while i DO NOT agree with the old perma-death system...because i dont think anyone that works that hard and pays that much for so long to have a great char, should just be completely removed becuase a BH killed him 3x. Instead i think that there my system should be put into affect. I think it should only be that you can ONLY die and lose your character when fighting OTHER JEDI. Pretty much with the FRS system. This would allow for Jedi to not worry about BH deaths, and only consentrate on the exp they lost AND it would make encountering oppising faction jedi INTENSE!!! It would be very cool to run into or hunt another jedi and you both get ready to do battle knowing that this could kill your jedi. IN ADDITION to this system i add the twist SOE could impliment. The twist is that if people DONT want to do the whole character removal thing...then they could make it so after your 3rd death to an opposing faction jedi (none of this imp killed an imp stuff), you dont lose your character...but you lose ALL of your jedi skills. and return to a new padawan/initiate again. I think this system would be a great idea, and i keep posting this idea in all the threads about it. It definately would make seeing an opposing faction jedi INTENSE!!!(...)
Jedi population does not need to be reduced. If somebody wants to play a Jedi he should be able to if he goes through the grind. All that needs to be done is to give Jedi an incentive to hide.
Permadeath (no matter in which form or shape) is a bad concept, especially after a long grind. It got removed because of unreliable network connections and other factors not in a player's realm of control can interfere with a fight. If you get killed while being LD because you had a power shortage and lost your toon because of it, would it be fair? This makes your proposal not viable.
On the other hand I do agree that currently full templates dont have a high risk for showing off. My solution would be to introduce skill box loss - you can bank 4 million xp, and if a Jedi is killed by a BH, he gets the same xp penalty as he does currently. However, if he goes into the negative, he has to keep dropping his current skill boxes to recoup the same amount of xp per box that he needed to learn it until he is in positive balance again. If he doesnt have any skill boxes to drop, he keeps his negative balance and every xp earned is deducted from that debt.
Example:
a)
Jedi has 4 mill xp.
Jedi gets killed, loses 400k xp
=> Jedi has 3.6 mill xp.
b)
Jedi has 300k xp
Jedi gets killed, loses 400k xp
=> Jedi has -100k xp
=> Jedi has to drop skills to get back into positive
=> Jedi drops Healer 4xxx to 3xxx (+1.6 mill)
=> Jedi has 1.5 million xp, can grind 100k to get back Healer 4xxx
This makes xp loss meaningful even to full templates, while not being as harsh and prone to outside events as perma death.
Angamarth
Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:37 am
#24
pizzathehut67 wrote:
you overlook my point. you should not be 1.5X stronger just because you choose to play your game the way you do. Other people pay the same money. I agree that jedi should be more powerful than combat profs and should be hard to take down. but a mediocre player should have a chance to compete. combat (just like crafting) should be based upon skill and what you have learned. NOT a higher baseline just because you choose to play a different way.
Other people that pay the same money have the ability to grind to Jedi just like we did for our $15 a month. Should I argue that I should be able to place multiple vendors, just because that guy with master merchant can? After all, I pay $15 a month to play just like him, why can't I do the same things?
Your argument that you pay the same $ per month might hold water if you were somehow not allowed to go through the process to do with your character exactly what we have done with ours.
Soulcaster
Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:38 am
#25
Well my idea of the jedi deaths were in support of the FRS. Where you take missions against other jedi...not your run of the mill jedi encounter. Sorry for not clarifying that. Yes base raiding would be fine, and not count as one of the 3 deaths..
..but if an imp took a Jeid mission on you and was able to hunt you...well then thats different =) Kind of like the BHvsJedi system now.