Jedi Archive
Thread: Force Armor Force Cost Information.
BodenVolrath
Wed Jan 05, 2005 2:01 am
#27
NuukiWookiee wrote:
I wanted to revisit this topic as I am seriously thinking of taking FA. A lot of people say it is bad because they use it wrong. Sure if you just turn on FA against another jedi in PvP you will lose your force bar quickly and die. The amount of force FA2takes is 30% of the damage blocked according to Bootstrap Bill's test. It seems it would be very useful if stacked with the following:
FA2 - 45% reduction (LS too)
Intimidate - 50% reduction
Exoprotein Wafers - 25% for 25 attacks and 5 filling (theoretically 500+ attacks)
Force Run 1 activated to keep the melee guys from swarming and letting Saber Block stop the ranged guys.
So let's say you get hit for 500 dmg in PvP.
500 *.5 (intim) *.75 (wafers) = 187.5 *.55 (FA2) = 103 dmg w/o factoring LS toughness
so the FA reduced dmg by 84.5 dmg * .3 = 25 Force Cost
Does these numbers seem to make sense? Agood tactic in jedi PvPcould be to run force speed/run and drain a jedi with default attack going to replenish your depleted force pool. Let them run out of force using their specials. I will have to test this out to see if the numbers actually jive.
Anyone have any thoughts or experiences using FA2?
I m was Enh 4203 and switched to 2403 about 3 month ago.
I m considering reswitching again, depends combat upgrade.
I love FA2 when I m unbuff and travel, it is a life saver for stupid encounters like master Jedi on dantoine which swarm you like nothing. I would have died several time without it, but I didn't.
I love FA2 to grind unbuff, with Defender 4000, I can take on seething bol and voritor tracker unbuff, piece of cake (Master LS too).
I usually use FA2 in pvp and drain force as you said. But the drain can be reduce a lot (I think force shield and force protection from defender does reduce the amount you can drain).
This tactic works best on Jedi that : doesn t have channel, low force protec (not master defender)and no force run2 (because they will flee lol). Basically rarelly.
I love FA2 for what it is, a damage reduction which work for LS too.
Depending of CU, they are many way which canaffect FA2 :
-reduction of HAM, a drastic reduction of HAM could reduce the time of duel and make FA2 more appealling for survival purpose in a duel. Right now duel can last 15 min and put FA2 is your doom (except withthe currentwell known meditate exploit).
- the same reduction would make the use of channel force more dangerous, ie the resplenish of force lost with force armor, ouch.
Also depending on melee accuracy after CU, it might be good to take def 4000 which is right now useless in pvpbecause of 150 acc+ mod and stun effect and...
This would make you avoid the attack and not take the damage. (while FA2 works good with synstheak, Defender 4000 is nice with the dodge food (+50% def))
Right now, I would take force intimidate over force armor for pve.
In pvp jedi, neither are usefull because basically too costly.
In group pvp, FA2 can prove good too be able to escape (with FR2).
Sudasinio
Wed Jan 05, 2005 2:25 am
#28
I thought saber toughness was working along with force armor 1 and 2. And doesnt the damage get reflected to saber toughness first then bounce back to the force armor?
rodav
Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:00 am
#29
evilstockpuppet you said: "2 sythsteak already on. "
Do you ever used a synthsteak mate? You can't get 2 synthsteak working at the same time.
JemyM
Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:48 am
#30
Force Armor seems to help when you are unprepared. You can produce a macro that recharges the armor each time the timer runs out, and if you are attacked all of the sudden (by anything), Force Armor 2 seem tohelp you long enough to make yourself safe. Maybe it will drain your force, but when you walked around for a bit your forcepool will be full, so you should be able to survive such attacks and have plenty of pool left for either running or fighting back if the number of opponents are not that many (maybe you can shut it down after defeating the heavy hitting attackers?)
Force Armor also seems like a good defense for people that do not intend to get Master Lightsaber.
Thats my points.
Schweaty
Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:58 am
#31
Mystic_Squirrel wrote:
I see FA as being far superior to synthsteak. Yes, synthsteak is a 45% damage reduction for no force cost, but if I use thakatillo in a fight (which I do every time) I only have space for 2 synthsteaks. Compare that to a person with FA, who can not only use a holocron or channel to get force back, but if they get into trouble they can drop FA and use synth.
how do you toggle FA? i didn't know that was possible 
Strykekyale
Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:35 am
#32
how do you toggle FA? i didn't know that was possible
either turn it off same way as u turn it on, or run out of force and get hit once( it relys on the force to block so when out it shuts down)
One thing I have yet to see in this thread is people considering FA2 MLS melee toughnesss a Defender (either 4004 or MD) oughness vs a reg melee target, add in steak orwaffers, they hardy touchyou, and all the while your beating them silly
MarachMusashi
Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:39 am
#33
Everything is on Toggle i believe except FR. You can turn it off same as using the skill..if it's active it will turn off.
777jb777
Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:45 am
#34
I don't have Force Armor, but it seems to me (if the system behaves 'logically') that the FA reduction should be calculated before food and toughness reductions.
NuukiWookiee wrote:
I wanted to revisit this topic as I am seriously thinking of taking FA. A lot of people say it is bad because they use it wrong. Sure if you just turn on FA against another jedi in PvP you will lose your force bar quickly and die. The amount of force FA2takes is 30% of the damage blocked according to Bootstrap Bill's test. It seems it would be very useful if stacked with the following:
FA2 - 45% reduction (LS too)
Intimidate - 50% reduction
Exoprotein Wafers - 25% for 25 attacks and 5 filling (theoretically 500+ attacks)
Force Run 1 activated to keep the melee guys from swarming and letting Saber Block stop the ranged guys.
So let's say you get hit for 500 dmg in PvP.
500 *.5 (intim) *.75 (wafers) = 187.5 *.55 (FA2) = 103 dmg w/o factoring LS toughness
so the FA reduced dmg by 84.5 dmg * .3 = 25 Force Cost
Does these numbers seem to make sense? Agood tactic in jedi PvPcould be to run force speed/run and drain a jedi with default attack going to replenish your depleted force pool. Let them run out of force using their specials. I will have to test this out to see if the numbers actually jive.
Anyone have any thoughts or experiences using FA2?
JemyM
Wed Jan 05, 2005 9:18 am
#35
The less damage reduction you already have, the greater difference an additional stack do.
It is therefore in my opinion important to see what you stack. Synthsteak with Force Armor 2 is definitely overrated, as the following numbers will show:
500melee damage:
Master Lightsaber+ Master Enhancer:
Melee: Lightsaber Toughness: -55% = 225 damage
Melee: Lightsaber Toughness + Force Armor 2: -75% = 125 damage
Melee: Lightsaber Toughness + Force Armor 2 + Synthsteak: -85% (25 filling) =75 damage
Melee: Lightsaber Toughness + Force Armor 2 + Exo-Protein: -81% (5 filling) =95 damage
Melee: Lightsaber Toughness + Force Armor 2: -75% = 125 damage
Melee: Lightsaber Toughness + Force Armor 2 + Synthsteak: -85% (25 filling) =75 damage
Melee: Lightsaber Toughness + Force Armor 2 + Exo-Protein: -81% (5 filling) =95 damage
20 damage difference
Average Exo-Protein defends against 15 attacks
Average Synthsteak defends against 30 attacks.
4x25 filling defends against 120 attacks
20x5 filling defends against 300 attacks
500 ranged damage:
Ranged:-0% = 500 damage (Block: 85%)
Ranged:Force Armor 2:-45% = 275 damage (Block: 85%)
Ranged:Force Armor 2 + Synthsteak:-67% (25 filling) =165 damage (Block: 85%)
Ranged: Force Armor 2 + Exo-Protein: -59% (5 filling) =205 damage (Block: 85%)
Ranged: Force Armor 2 + Exo-Protein: -59% (5 filling) =205 damage (Block: 85%)
40 damage difference
Force Armor 2 is a great power, even with its forcecost. It is great becouse it can be on always without food filling and it works against Ranged attacks as well as Melee attacks. It is not what you use against Krayt Dragons and in the middle of a PvP fight however.
Message Edited by JemyM on 01-05-2005 08:49 PM
Planetstalker
Wed Jan 05, 2005 9:44 am
#36
rodorion wrote:ya i know its not broken, but when they removed both at the same time they made enhancer the only really viable template in jedi vs jedi. But i do more pvp and pve than jvj and didnt want to be a fotm whore. Just wish they would put toughness back to the way it was. I mean it IS jedi toughness, not -everything except jedi- toughness.
Xlot wrote:
rodorion wrote:
speaking on this topic, why the hell do enhancers have the only resistance against lightsaber. Would it be possible for someone to pull their head out of their butt long enough to fix jedi toughness so that a defender is actually stronger in defense than an enhancer?
Sadly, this was one of the most contested (and imho stupid) changes made to the jedi trees before publish 9 went live. Force Armor used to be in the Defender skill tree. It got ripped out of there and stuck in Enhancer a couple of weeks before the jedi rebalance went live, and suddenly M Saber, M Enhancer, 4004 healer became FOTM.
Jedi toughness isn't broken - it works fine against every damage type except sabers, which is how it should work. Sadly, that change was made at the same time as the Force Armor was moved to Enhancer.
Either of the 2 changes would have been a suitable fix, but instead, SOE took away with one hand, and um.. took away with the other too.
Where it stands now, they should either move Force Armor back to Defender, or make Jedi Toughness work against sabers.
Geno.
Its about balance and adding ls resistance to the jedi toughness is defently not that. moving force armor back to defender tho Is probably something they should consider (thye moved it on TC tho didnt they? so moving it now is probably not an option)
JemyM
Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:17 am
#37
Planetstalker wrote:
Its about balance and adding ls resistance to the jedi toughness is defently not that. moving force armor back to defender tho Is probably something they should consider (thye moved it on TC tho didnt they? so moving it now is probably not an option)
Enhancer is the Force Defense tree. You use force for defenses. It makes a whupping amount of sense that Force Armor is within that profession.
Its the existence of the"Force Defense" tree that doesnt make sense. It contains not a single forcepower, except for avoid incap, and the rest of the defenses in the profession should be within the Lightsaber profession. 
As a Jedi you use the force to guide and defend you, not acrobatics. The rest is "skill with the lightsaber".
Message Edited by JemyM on 01-05-2005 06:19 PM
DaHyPe
Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:24 am
#38
I thought LS toughness was 55 at master? am I missing something here?
hypoxia
Wed Jan 05, 2005 12:57 pm
#39
Isacoast wrote:
JayBurns wrote:
True synthasteak might be fine alone, but what if you stacked it with FA, and force intimidate? Damage to both force and HAM will be so reduced it would be like running around in full compo again. Of course, none of the popular dual mastery templates can do all three, but that's why I'm making a dabbler template.
Regards,
J
Very true... Or you can eat exo protein wafers, for 25% dmg reduction, for 25 hits, and only 5 filling! yes that's right, 5! I can eat 9 of these for the price of one synth, and block 225 attacks for 25% instead of just 45 attacks for 45%.
Thats true if you use 45 filling synth, most good synth can be less than 25% though. So it's more like eating 4-5 wafers instead of 1 synth. Or 100-125 attacks at 25% dmg reduction instead of 40 attacks at 42%... So if you just say it's 4.5 wafers per synth thats 113 attacks or 2825% dmg reduction. The Synth is 40 attacks at 42% or 1680%. Wafers are way better in this regard, however if you know in advance that you'll be fighting, you can stack a synth, which will add 1680% to your total dmg reduction for the fight. In other words 8400% total dmg reduction. Whereas a pre-stacked wafer will only add 625.
So pre-eating Synth + full synth filling used = 8400% reduced
Pre-eat wafers and you get 11925% reduced.
Of course if you pre-eat a synth and then use wafers, you get (2825% x 4) = 11,300 + 1680 prestacked synth = 12,980% reduced.
Wow, in trying to prove you wrong, I've convinced myself that I need to start buying wafers lol