Jedi Archive
Thread: Defenders will benefit most from cloak after the nerf
MrDecipher wrote:
So a powers jedi is unable to use cloak as a first strike skill your saying. Or are you saying defender jedi never used cloak as an escape method. I see it helping powers more because they will be able to get a root off then a few ranged attacks in before a melee type player can attack back.
Oerivo wrote:
MrDecipher wrote:
Look you have skilla defender does not. This change does not effect defenders at all. You chose a template based on crowd control and your comlaining about defences. Get real and stop whinning because now when you cloak with force run on you will not run at full speed.
Except that a defender actually has the defenses to use cloak as a first strike capability. And in mine and the posts author's opinion, having cloak will be of the MOST benefit to a defender and least benefit to those who took it as a defensive measure. It will achieve what the devs want if they want it to be first strike skill as its value for making up for lower defenses is seriously diminished.
Message Edited by Oerivo on 09-19-2005 08:58 PM
Well I don't know many master defenders with cloak but the template that the majrity of peopel were moving too was 0400powers 0040defender 4000healer, and 0400enhancer. Then the rest of skill points were dispersed whereever.
Oerivo wrote:
MrDecipher wrote:
So a powers jedi is unable to use cloak as a first strike skill your saying. Or are you saying defender jedi never used cloak as an escape method. I see it helping powers more because they will be able to get a root off then a few ranged attacks in before a melee type player can attack back.
Oerivo wrote:
MrDecipher wrote:
Look you have skilla defender does not. This change does not effect defenders at all. You chose a template based on crowd control and your comlaining about defences. Get real and stop whinning because now when you cloak with force run on you will not run at full speed.
Except that a defender actually has the defenses to use cloak as a first strike capability. And in mine and the posts author's opinion, having cloak will be of the MOST benefit to a defender and least benefit to those who took it as a defensive measure. It will achieve what the devs want if they want it to be first strike skill as its value for making up for lower defenses is seriously diminished.
Only if that powers user is of your making with root in his template.
I am not saying anything about can or cannot do this or that. I am just saying that in my opinion, it will be MOST beneficial to the Mdef to have cloak since they can use it more effectively as first strike given their ability to stick out a tougher fight. Simultaneously I am saying that it will be much less benificial to those who use it to control the flow of the battle by evasion. It is very hard to evade when you cannot move away from your assaillant. If your assaillant is not a BH, and cannot track you, I sould give 2 sh!ts about a snare as it does not affect my use of the skill.
Message Edited by Oerivo on 09-19-2005 08:53 PM
MrDecipher wrote:
So a powers jedi is unable to use cloak as a first strike skill your saying. Or are you saying defender jedi never used cloak as an escape method. I see it helping powers more because they will be able to get a root off then a few ranged attacks in before a melee type player can attack back.
Oerivo wrote:
MrDecipher wrote:
Look you have skilla defender does not. This change does not effect defenders at all. You chose a template based on crowd control and your comlaining about defences. Get real and stop whinning because now when you cloak with force run on you will not run at full speed.
Except that a defender actually has the defenses to use cloak as a first strike capability. And in mine and the posts author's opinion, having cloak will be of the MOST benefit to a defender and least benefit to those who took it as a defensive measure. It will achieve what the devs want if they want it to be first strike skill as its value for making up for lower defenses is seriously diminished.
Your letting your emotion blind you to logic.
How can the current gimped Master Powers damage template ever get off enough damage to scratch a Master Defender? That's just nuts.
But a Defender? He can take a lickin' and keep on tickin'.
And after the cloak nerf, he can keep on using cloak as a first-strike weapon, too. But Powers/Enhancer guys would be loony to keep doing it.
MrDecipher wrote:
Well if the devs fix it so you cannot use /follow [jediname] thing then any jedi that has cloak will still be able to get away fine they will just take longer to get into a safe enough range to call a bike.
You really think, knowing how screwy the devs have been for more than two years, that they are gonna do this? I bet the way the basic code is written, they can't do it or they already would have.
We're gonna have so many Defender/Cloakers now it's not gonna be funny. And it's not right.
MrDecipher wrote:
Well defenders are made for defence in combat while pwers enhancers are made more for group support so to be effective they need groups in which case your not supposed to run away leaving your group.
Drazharr wrote:
MrDecipher wrote:
Well defenders are made for defence in combat while pwers enhancers are made more for group support so to be effective they need groups in which case your not supposed to run away leaving your group.
Lol, I won't be much good to my group anymore if I die right away, now will I?
Oh yeah, I can die a minute or so later when my force runs out since I'm cloaked and can't get away with the new snare.
But Defenders, hey, no problem! You can cloak and come out swinging without fear of dying since you can take tons more damage.
Don't you see that they are taking away a Master Powers only real defense? Can't you see that?
Typical battle lineup, if you have powers as your primary attack you will not be in the front line attacking. Crowd control from a ranged position while the rest of the "group" handles the oncoming on slaught. Defenders are there at the front line tanking the damage. If it gets to much for you and they get over run, then you can cloak and walk away outside of combat range. Not that difficult to understand. If you want to be the damage dealer or take a ton of it, change your temp to be a more combat efficient one.
GrimzKeeper wrote:
Drazharr wrote:
MrDecipher wrote:
Well defenders are made for defence in combat while pwers enhancers are made more for group support so to be effective they need groups in which case your not supposed to run away leaving your group.
Lol, I won't be much good to my group anymore if I die right away, now will I?
Oh yeah, I can die a minute or so later when my force runs out since I'm cloaked and can't get away with the new snare.
But Defenders, hey, no problem! You can cloak and come out swinging without fear of dying since you can take tons more damage.
Don't you see that they are taking away a Master Powers only real defense? Can't you see that?
Typical battle lineup, if you have powers as your primary attack you will not be in the front line attacking. Crowd control from a ranged position while the rest of the "group" handles the oncoming on slaught. Defenders are there at the front line tanking the damage. If it gets to much for you and they get over run, then you can cloak and walk away outside of combat range. Not that difficult to understand. If you want to be the damage dealer or take a ton of it, change your temp to be a more combat efficient one.
Yeah, the typical "change your tactics/change your temp" knee-jerk reaction. I have a better idea - why don't you change your temp to MLS/MP/4040 Healer after this nerf to understand where folks like I are coming from.
duurron wrote:
who says that u are still snared when u uncloak? pls link i cant find that comment...
Lol, lemme see if I can explain this in MP/MLS/4040 Healer terms:
1. You cloak and with the new nerf, crawl into your much vaunted "alpha-strike" position. Since you are crawling, however, a third of your force is gone.
2. You de-cloak and blast your victim with everything you have for three or four attacks.
3. He blasts back and since you have no defenses, you need to get away. You cloak. Uh-oh, you are moving like a snail again. And two-thirds of your force is gone.
4. Your "victim" waits until the final third of your force is gone, you involuntarily de-cloak and die.
Get the picture now?
Now, if you're a Master Defender, you can use cloak without fear - you don't have to run, you can stand and fight. Understand the problem now? Understand why we'll have a lot more Defender templates now, with cloak in them? Understand why this cloak "cure" is gonna be worse than the illness?
I'm sure you don't.
Message Edited by Drazharr on 09-19-2005 06:24 PM
Oerivo wrote:
MrDecipher wrote:
Look you have skilla defender does not. This change does not effect defenders at all. You chose a template based on crowd control and your comlaining about defences. Get real and stop whinning because now when you cloak with force run on you will not run at full speed.
Except that a defender actually has the defenses to use cloak as a first strike capability. And in mine and the posts author's opinion, having cloak will be of the MOST benefit to a defender and least benefit to those who took it as a defensive measure. It will achieve what the devs want if they want it to be first strike skill as its value for making up for lower defenses is seriously diminished.
What the hell are you talking about?The defender doesn't NEED first strike they're always the last or first target in a battle. All of the Defenders I know/repect do not care for cloak at all, it is a waste of sps for a Defender. Stop talking crap about Defender, no Defender is going to use the nerfed version cloak considering they didn't use it pre-nerf. If anything a Force Armor + Aura user is more likely to use it rather than a Defender would.
Point being, most Defenders are in 1 of3 boats: Weak healing or the inability to replenish force or not having Force speed 2/force run. Now personally, all Defenders out there in those positions would rather acquire some of those abilities rather than your "first strike cloak."
Cloak isn't meant to be a "defensive mechanism" as you state. If by defenses you mean running away when you're getting your ____ kicked then yeah, but there is no defense in cloak, hence many people don't use it for defenses anyways. We all know the abuses and uses of cloak, and Defense is primarily not one of them, its escape.
We're not entirely sure how cloak will work out, so don't judge it until there's been some testing on it. But cloak isn't meant to be a gauranteed 100% I escape w/ 200 more PVP rating button. Now it'll take better timing, more strategy, and will be limited to just running away (suceptible to Ranger devices though).
Basically, this is setting it up for FRS, you can't have an FRS based on PVP and death if you never die.
Skwall wrote:
Oerivo wrote:
MrDecipher wrote:
Look you have skilla defender does not. This change does not effect defenders at all. You chose a template based on crowd control and your comlaining about defences. Get real and stop whinning because now when you cloak with force run on you will not run at full speed.
Except that a defender actually has the defenses to use cloak as a first strike capability. And in mine and the posts author's opinion, having cloak will be of the MOST benefit to a defender and least benefit to those who took it as a defensive measure. It will achieve what the devs want if they want it to be first strike skill as its value for making up for lower defenses is seriously diminished.
What the hell are you talking about?The defender doesn't NEED first strike they're always the last or first target in a battle. All of the Defenders I know/repect do not care for cloak at all, it is a waste of sps for a Defender. Stop talking crap about Defender, no Defender is going to use the nerfed version cloak considering they didn't use it pre-nerf. If anything a Force Armor + Aura user is more likely to use it rather than a Defender would.
Point being, most Defenders are in 1 of3 boats: Weak healing or the inability to replenish force or not having Force speed 2/force run. Now personally, all Defenders out there in those positions would rather acquire some of those abilities rather than your "first strike cloak."
Cloak isn't meant to be a "defensive mechanism" as you state. If by defenses you mean running away when you're getting your ____ kicked then yeah, but there is no defense in cloak, hence many people don't use it for defenses anyways. We all know the abuses and uses of cloak, and Defense is primarily not one of them, its escape.
We're not entirely sure how cloak will work out, so don't judge it until there's been some testing on it. But cloak isn't meant to be a gauranteed 100% I escape w/ 200 more PVP rating button. Now it'll take better timing, more strategy, and will be limited to just running away (suceptible to Ranger devices though).
Basically, this is setting it up for FRS, you can't have an FRS based on PVP and death if you never die.