Jedi Archive

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YuthuraMan wrote:

the thing is, the new sith order have only 2. only the master knows the secrets of the sith, when the master passes his knowledge to his apprentice, the apprentice kills the master and become the master, taking an aprentice...and o on and on.

so yeh, new sith order = 2 members ONLY and ever.

now the old order had a LOT of sith lords/ warriors/ sorcerers. since SWG is more like a prequel timeline based (lotsa jedi around) might aswel go further and back to the gold sith era timeline and give us a sith temple (could work like the village of the aurilla, the only difference is that u need to b at least dark jedi knight (or guardian, enforcerwhatever..)) to gain acess. after 6 months ur training is complete and u gain the title which u worked for

- Sith Sorcerer ( if u choose the quests to improve ur force powers)

-Sith Warrior ( LScombat/defense quests)

or sumthing else for a dabbler set of quests, like Sith assassin or Sith enforcer dunno

these titles would also end the discussion that there could be only 2 sith lords at a time, since u ll never b able to get sith lord. just a sith cultist (like the famous brotherhood of darkness members, they were all sith, but they bowed to 1 sith lord only)

1 thing is for sure, never gonna happen. but no one can blame us for dreamin eh? hehe

yuth

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Tekcasualty wrote:

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1. In the early scripts for what became Star Wars, Darth Vader was one of the Thousand Knights of the Sith, the sworn enemy of the Jedi Bendu (later simply the Jedi with Bendu finding its way into the movies presumably in the form of Obi-Wan's alias on Tatoinne).

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And Vadar originally told luke that Obi-wan killed his father. Not everything in the scripts are deffinite. They get changed as GL sees fit.

Agree- I wanted to share this tidbit from the early scripts only to show what George Lucas was thinking about the Sith when he first conceived them. In fact, not everything in the movies are definite either, as evidenced in the extended editions.The origins of the first three movies, Episode IV- VIbear more weightwith me then does the substantial body of extended universe, rpg's,comicbooks, and Happy Meals that have come since.In other words, this is just asvalid a source of information as any of theotherinformation floatingaround out there, the difference being that this orginated from George Lucas himself. Is it binding- No.But I do believe it is revealing and shows the intent and source of thinking behind thesestories.

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2. Darth Vaders title is Dark Lord of the Sith. For him to be a Dark Lord of the Sith there must be other Sith for him to be lord over. He cannot be Lord of the Sith over Palpatine as Palpatine is Vaders superior.

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How about its just a title from a forgotten age? In the UK there is still a king/queen, but they really don't do anything....

My interpretation of the title was derived from when I first saw the movie, and I was not alone in the belief that there were many Sith out there. I agree that your interpretation is equally possible, but it really isn't answered definitively either way. I won't hold you to your example of the King and Queen to harshly (BTW- at the moment there is no king in England) but this does offer an opportunity to show you how it was interpreted. What does it mean to be King of the English if there are no English?

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3. Jango Fett was recruited to serve as a template for the clone army by Lord Tyrannus a decade prior to the events in Star Wars Episode II. At this time, there were already two Sith Lords, Sidious Palpatine and Maul. Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas presumably was also involved in this as someone erased the entry for Kamino from the Jedi library. That Maul and Dooku were concurrently involved with the Sith is supported in Christopher Lee's biography in which the actor attests thatDooku was to have manipulated the events leading to the confrontation between Quigon, Obi-Wan, and Maul.

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This part is tricky. Potentially anyone could have said they wereTyrannus (atleast that is the feeling I got). Even palpatine himself (potentially). If whoever ordered the creation of the clones used their real name the jedi would have been on them like stink on poo. I'm not Star Wars expert, but the dooku manipulating part is fan speculation I believe.

Here is the qoute from Christopher Lee's autobiography:

"The Count is the most malignant, dangerous and lethal force in the entire story, possibly in the entire galaxy. As a disenchanted Jedi who quits the Republic to serve the Emperor, I am a good guy gone wrong, though I have already engineered the death of Liam Neeson in an episode I wasn't in. My brief from the Emperor, who has appeared in several episodes with his face half-covered, is to initiate a war on a galactic scale between the two systems. I create clones for battle in huge numbers, "a power so colossal that they will be the greatest army in the history of the galaxy".

Of course, once again, I wouldn't argue that it is binding. No one really knows what really happened in those years between Episode I and II except GL. This simply is an indication of what he may have been thinking.

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4. In Episode III, when Palpatine urges Obi-Wan and Anakin to get assistance in confronting Dooku Obi-Wan replies "Chancellor Palpatine, Sith Lords (pl) are our specialty." Since the only Sith lord that Obi-Wan and Anakin had confronted previously was Dooku, with very poor results, this indicates that Obi-Wan and Anakin had between the end of Episode II and the beginning of Episode III fought against other Sith against whom they were able to develop their "specialty" together. Additionally, the Sith are referred to in the plural after Dooku's death but prior to Anakin's betrayal of the Jedi. And there is a reference to a Lord Voss relevant to the Outer Rim Sieges, someone who may or may not be a Sith.

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It could be heard as Obi-wan was talking about the jedi in general, not just anakin and Obi-wan. Since we did see the clone war cartoons, we do have a generally good idea on what occured between 2 and 3. Or Obi-wan might have though that the girl (I don't remember her name, she was the double saber wielding gray girl) was a sith and Darth Maul was deffinitly a sith so theres 2 sith right there. In conclusion to this part, I don't think anakin and Obi-wan went sith hunting.)

I don't know about the cartoons. However, the quote in the movie included Anakin. Anakin didn't fight Maul. And they both failed against Dooku. Who were these other Sith Lords they were specializing in? In another post I admitted that it may have been equally a matter of bravado on Obi-wan's part or inconsistent writing, something not unheard of. In any case, why should this statement be less revealing then Yoda's statement in Episode I?

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5. Even the most rigid interpretation of Yoda's comment in Episode I, that there are only two Sith, does not bind Palpatine after Episode III. It is an open question whether or not Palpatine chose to remain true to this tradition after Episode III and it is unanswered one way or the other in the movies. In fact, there is some indication that the Sith lords of the movies did share their knowledge with others more openly then many assume. General Grievous, for instance, was trained to use lightsabers, something he boastfully noted to Obi-Wan prior to their duel.

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Wielding a lightsaber makes you nether a jedi nor a sith. Your just a guy who knows how to wield a saber. I also remember reading somewhere that Grievous was not a force sensitive alien when his natural body parrished.(sp)

I didn't claim that Grievous was a Sith. It simply demonstrated that the Sith were willing to share their knowledge. But that misses the point. There is no indication one way or another that even if there was a strict tradition of two Sith that this tradition was adhered to once the Jedi were defeated. As I pointed out in another post,within the fictional limitations of the series this presumed tradition, based on one line of dialogue by Yoda in Episode I, this is at best a tradition by the Sith and not a law of nature.

From within the game:

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1. There are numerous Sith already in the game. These are Sith NPC's associated with the Aurelia quests. They are neither master nor apprentices. They are simply Sith underlings of some kind.

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Someone wasn't paying attention. Those were sith wannabes, like the girl in "the clone wars".

NPC Sith wannabes are just as Sith-like in Star Wars Galaxies as players who want to be Jedi are Jedi-like. I was paying attention, though there isn't much to pay attention to. As I tried to convey, these NPC's are totally unsatisfying and introduce a number of problems. If they are Sith wannabes, then why don't they too stick to the master/apprentice relationship? Nevertheless, wannabes or otherwise, Sony put them in there and you will find NPC's called Sith in this game.

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2. All dialogue should be given equal weight. If you must adhere to the belief that there are only two Sith because of Yoda's comment in Episode I, then by the very same logic there can be no Jedi in the game either as Yoda stated in ROTJ that Luke was the LAST OF THE JEDI. Beyond statements, there is no foundation whatsoever for bounty hunters hunting Jedi, yet this is a mechanism that has nothing to do with Star Wars that Sony chose to introduce exclusively for balancing the Jedi population. Bounty Hunters hunting Jedi was a programming choice, not something based on anything that occurred in the movies.

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Yodais powerful, but I don't think he can "force sense" the ENTIRE galaxy for all jedi.

Don't forget that ROTJ was also made quite a long time ago, since then many things have changed, for example the Force has changed from a mystical power to something controlled by "Medi cells".

"Midi-chlorians." Yes, ROTJ was a long time ago and there are many things that need to be reconciled with the previous series and this one. Many people, myself among them, consider the first two movies, what are now called Episode IV and V, to be the Star Wars canon and everything following to be dribble. I understand that there is a new generation that perceives the opposite. Star Wars is a franchise that spans twenty years and is chronologically convoluted. It is therefore not unreasonable to make an effort to reconcile the inherent contradictions without obtusely fixating on one line dialogue that can and has been interpreted in a variety of ways.

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Additionally, there is no such thing as a "Dark" Jedi in the movie lore. The term is an oxymoron, like meat eating vegeterians. The closest thing to a "Dark" Jedi in the movies was, ever so briefly, Anakin prior to his betrayal. One might argue that even that the moment he sliced of Mace's arm he was, in effect, no longer a Jedi. There is some indication that there once were "Dark" Jedi who were the precursors to the Sith. These beings are far more unlikely then the Sith and have no logical foundation. How does one become a "Dark" Jedi if, by definition, Jedi are practitioners of the light side? I have an image of Yoda congratulating Anakin on his good "dark" deed of destroying the Jedi and conferring upon him, with distinction, the title of "Dark Jedi Master." Neither Palpatine nor Maul would have had the authority to confer this title on anyone since they themselves were never Jedi at all. It is surprising that many players have accepted this concept unquestioningly despite the inherent illogic of it based sheerly on the power of unfounded assumptions.

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*whips out the nunchucks of doooom* WATAAAAHH

It is not an oxymoron. The movie does not dipict EVERYTHING in the universe or else we would never have swordsmen or Bio Engineers. Don't forget that in the movies jedi were practically non-exist so therefore dark jedi would be practically non-existent. We use EU to explain the parts not covered by the movies.

*dodges nunchucks of dooom and uses mindtrick 3 to calm the feral mind*

It is an oxymoron.Jedi are in the current timeframe by definitionpractitioners of the lightsideof the force. This is how George Lucas originally conceived them and how they have been portrayed in each movie. You may be tempted by the darkside and remain a Jedi, but succumbing to the darkside is an end to your Jedi ways. But there is something more to being a Jedi, as portrayed, then simply being a good guy with a lightsaber. Jedi are an institution. They are an institution devoted to the practice of the lightside of the force. There is no complimentary Dark Jedi Temple (although in the game there is. If you have a concession to "Dark Jedi" that are in any case less likely in a universe where there are no Jedi to fbecome "dark" from, then how can you argue against Sith?). If you want to be a Jedi you have to pass muster with your Jedi peers and Jedi elders. If you do certain dark things they aren't going to give you your Jedi badge and despiteyour skills and talents you won't be a Jedi. As noted in the original post, there may have once been "Dark" Jedi long ago but these became the Sith. The reason for this is that at a prior time it seems the Jedi were less stringent and may have indulged those were lured by the dark side. This is the explanation provided by George Lucas, not me.

The rest is my interpretation of dark jedi vs sith. I haven't really dived deep into the Star Wars universe so I'm not positive.

A dark jedi is a jedi who has fallen from the orders gracies. He has disgraced himself by turning away from the ways of peace and wisdom and moved to the dark side of the force; revenge, greed, and rage. A sith on the other hand uses the dark side of the force to take over the universe/wipe all of them out.There are only two sith, but their are an infinite number of dark jedi.

A sith *IS* a dark jedi

A dark jedi is not necessarily a sith.

Some of this supports my above point. If you fall from the graces of being a Jedi you are no longer a Jedi. You can become a Sith if you please or something else. But you're out of the club.

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The way to reconcile this seems rather simple. There are are only two Sith, but the Sith Yoda was referring to were the Sith Lords that serve as the leadership of the Sith. In the present timeline, these two Sith lords are Vader and Palpatine. But just as there are other Jedi that do not sit in the Jedi council so too are there other Sith that are not Sith lords.

The core narrative element of Star Warshas always been the contrast between good and evil as symbolized by light and dark, Rebel and Empire, and Jedi and Sith. These contrasts are what define the Star Wars stories. Everything else exists within the context of these conflicts. They should be introduced into the game in a manner that is consistent with the movies, the story, and the themes of Star Wars.

Message Edited by Saber_X on 06-12-200509:06 PM

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Message Edited by Tekcasualty on 06-13-200512:53 AM

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Responded point to point above.

Just wanted to add that I chose to respond to your post because you refrained from making any immature, and ultimately self defeating, personal attacks as I have seen in other posts. It's possible to have a civil discussion without resorting to name calling. I certainly appreciate your concerns, and it strikes me in reading your reply that much of what you have said actually supports the point that if nothing else there is an enormous wealth of information from which to draw common ground. As I have stated previously, the contradictions cited can be reconciled in a logical framework that is true to the Star Wars themes.

Message Edited by Saber_X on 06-12-2005 11:29 PM

Message Edited by Prede72 on 09-02-2005 08:07 PM

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oANUBUSo wrote:
thats the universal language

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You know what?

In a normal SW game, I would be completely opposed to the idea of having more than 2 Sith Lords (Sidious and Vader) at this given time period.

BUT, since SWG has absolutely nothing to do with SW anyways, I think they might as well let people be Sith Lords...

Nothing else in this game makes sense anyways...............

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Saber_X wrote:

While their may only be only two Sith Lords up until Episode III, it is supported within the dialogue and events of the movies that there are more Sith. Here is a list of indications that there are many Sith beyond the two Sith lords Yoda referred to in Episode I spanning the entire series of movies and within the game itself.

From the Movies:

1. In the early scripts for what became Star Wars, Darth Vader was one of the Thousand Knights of the Sith, the sworn enemy of the Jedi Bendu (later simply the Jedi with Bendu finding its way into the movies presumably in the form of Obi-Wan's alias on Tatoinne).

2. Darth Vaders title is Dark Lord of the Sith. For him to be a Dark Lord of the Sith there must be other Sith for him to be lord over. He cannot be Lord of the Sith over Palpatine as Palpatine is Vaders superior.

3. Jango Fett was recruited to serve as a template for the clone army by Lord Tyrannus a decade prior to the events in Star Wars Episode II. At this time, there were already two Sith Lords, Sidious Palpatine and Maul. Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas presumably was also involved in this as someone erased the entry for Kamino from the Jedi library. That Maul and Dooku were concurrently involved with the Sith is supported in Christopher Lee's biography in which the actor attests thatDooku was to have manipulated the events leading to the confrontation between Quigon, Obi-Wan, and Maul.

4. In Episode III, when Palpatine urges Obi-Wan and Anakin to get assistance in confronting Dooku Obi-Wan replies "Chancellor Palpatine, Sith Lords (pl) are our specialty." Since the only Sith lord that Obi-Wan and Anakin had confronted previously was Dooku, with very poor results, this indicates that Obi-Wan and Anakin had between the end of Episode II and the beginning of Episode III fought against other Sith against whom they were able to develop their "specialty" together. Additionally, the Sith are referred to in the plural after Dooku's death but prior to Anakin's betrayal of the Jedi. And there is a reference to a Lord Voss relevant to the Outer Rim Sieges, someone who may or may not be a Sith.

5. Even the most rigid interpretation of Yoda's comment in Episode I, that there are only two Sith, does not bind Palpatine after Episode III. It is an open question whether or not Palpatine chose to remain true to this tradition after Episode III and it is unanswered one way or the other in the movies. In fact, there is some indication that the Sith lords of the movies did share their knowledge with others more openly then many assume. General Grievous, for instance, was trained to use lightsabers, something he boastfully noted to Obi-Wan prior to their duel.

From within the game:

1. There are numerous Sith already in the game. These are Sith NPC's associated with the Aurelia quests. They are neither master nor apprentices. They are simply Sith underlings of some kind.

2. All dialogue should be given equal weight. If you must adhere to the belief that there are only two Sith because of Yoda's comment in Episode I, then by the very same logic there can be no Jedi in the game either as Yoda stated in ROTJ that Luke was the LAST OF THE JEDI. Beyond statements, there is no foundation whatsoever for bounty hunters hunting Jedi, yet this is a mechanism that has nothing to do with Star Wars that Sony chose to introduce exclusively for balancing the Jedi population. Bounty Hunters hunting Jedi was a programming choice, not something based on anything that occurred in the movies.

Additionally, there is no such thing as a "Dark" Jedi in the movie lore. The term is an oxymoron, like meat eating vegeterians. The closest thing to a "Dark" Jedi in the movies was, ever so briefly, Anakin prior to his betrayal. One might argue that even that the moment he sliced of Mace's arm he was, in effect, no longer a Jedi. There is some indication that there once were "Dark" Jedi who were the precursors to the Sith. These beings are far more unlikely then the Sith and have no logical foundation. How does one become a "Dark" Jedi if, by definition, Jedi are practitioners of the light side? I have an image of Yoda congratulating Anakin on his good "dark" deed of destroying the Jedi and conferring upon him, with distinction, the title of "Dark Jedi Master." Neither Palpatine nor Maul would have had the authority to confer this title on anyone since they themselves were never Jedi at all. It is surprising that many players have accepted this concept unquestioningly despite the inherent illogic of it based sheerly on the power of unfounded assumptions.

The way to reconcile this seems rather simple. There are are only two Sith, but the Sith Yoda was referring to were the Sith Lords that serve as the leadership of the Sith. In the present timeline, these two Sith lords are Vader and Palpatine. But just as there are other Jedi that do not sit in the Jedi council so too are there other Sith that are not Sith lords.

The core narrative element of Star Warshas always been the contrast between good and evil as symbolized by light and dark, Rebel and Empire, and Jedi and Sith. These contrasts are what define the Star Wars stories. Everything else exists within the context of these conflicts. They should be introduced into the game in a manner that is consistent with the movies, the story, and the themes of Star Wars.

Message Edited by Saber_X on 06-12-200509:06 PM

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you my friend are a moron and should never be alowed to watch star wars again! Ever since Darth Bane there has only been 2 sith at one time. Im not going to sit here and list the combinations for ignorent people who cant get the rule of two through there thick heads.

1. in the early script the story was about luke starkiller and han solo was a green anphibian, so the ealry script means nothing so why qoute it. Is han solo green? is he anphibian? No

2. Dark lord of the sith is nothing more then a title of those who follow the ideals of the sith, the sith are a race long exstincted that thought the fallen jedi who came to koriban where gods. they took on the mantel of dark lords of the sith, its nothing more then a title.

3 jedi master syfo dias had nothing to do with the sith yes he ordered the clone army because he knew the republic would need them but he was never in leauge with the sith, dooku murderd syfo dias just after the events of episode 1. This was the task given to him by palpitine so he could become a sith.