Jedi Archive
Thread: AI what's the purpose after the ToOW nerf?
Straker_Atrella wrote:
A couple of good points. It's discussions like this that may make progress with the issue and get dev attention, compared to just getting upset.
If the target does the *retreat* thing and runs away, that is a problem, however, I don't think it will work like that. From what I read, it will go after other targets (your group) and if they are not there, it will stay with you. However it going after the group is a problem. People need to be prepared for this though and be ready to kite, root, or whatever. Having food such as Synsteak rdy and such until the MD gets back off AI.
I sympathize with smaller groups such as the Rifle, Healer and Defender Jedi. This may affect you badly, yet you may just need to reasses your targets. If you are fighting stuff that constantly requires AI, then maybe you are in over your head.
You need to consider why they are probably doing this. People scream for content, they want hard quests, difficult ones that they feel good about finishing. With AI the way it was, all you needed to do was dominate mind a few times, hit AI and your group was 100% safe. People could give you force and attack, and not have to worry at all. I know AI isn't perfect, many is the time I laid on the ground with my AI still up. Yet it did muck things up for high level quests.
As a Defender myself, I am not thrilled with the change, yet I can see why it was needed.
Straker_Atrella wrote:A couple of good points. It's discussions like this that may make progress with the issue and get dev attention, compared to just getting upset.If the target does the *retreat* thing and runs away, that is a problem, however, I don't think it will work like that. From what I read, it will go after other targets (your group) and if they are not there, it will stay with you. However it going after the group is a problem. People need to be prepared for this though and be ready to kite, root, or whatever. Having food such as Synsteak rdy and such until the MD gets back off AI.I sympathize with smaller groups such as the Rifle, Healer and Defender Jedi. This may affect you badly, yet you may just need to reasses your targets. If you are fighting stuff that constantly requires AI, then maybe you are in over your head.You need to consider why they are probably doing this. People scream for content, they want hard quests, difficult ones that they feel good about finishing. With AI the way it was, all you needed to do was dominate mind a few times, hit AI and your group was 100% safe. People could give you force and attack, and not have to worry at all. I know AI isn't perfect, many is the time I laid on the ground with my AI still up. Yet it did muck things up for high level quests.As a Defender myself, I am not thrilled with the change, yet I can see why it was needed.
When they balance (nerf) a skill, they need to think it through to make sure that it is still useful when they are finished with it. As is stands everyone is confused exactly how they heck they are supposed to use this newly "balanced" AI. I would rather see it replaced with a good "balanced" defensive skill worthy of a master defender box, then leave it in this pointless limbo. Unfortunately they do this way too often.. they react instead of rethink.
As a result I don't see how completely breaking a skill was needed.
Message Edited by UberNinjaOfDoom on 10-10-2005 10:10 PM
triggerr wrote:
At this point... Just take away the XP loss! As you can see, Jedi is now a normal profession that requires more work to obtain. Just drop the XP loss and make everyone happy. There will be no more running, no more hiding, no more complaining... he was hiding in his house all day long!!! nerf that! He was cloaked the entire time!!! nerf that!! You lose, you win... You shake hands and walk the other way without this anger of the 400k xp that you just lost that sends you to the forums with rage! Thats why the hate posts start flyin in!
Yeah AI is a last ditch attempt to stay alive and unless im fighting a jedi sentinel or something with a level higher than 100 i dont use AI unless im close to death because i can prolly take the agro but if i cant i hit AI its not fool proof it can fail and only last 30 seconds my movement is impared and it kills my force
i would rather not use it unless it was neccacaery
rickaf29 wrote:
AI was not meant for escape thats why the root was added. It was meant for a last stand for the Tank.... Remembe rthe whole circle diagram that we were moving toward during the CU? Mezzers,healers, tanks, ranged, nukers, melee etc... Having mobs loose aggro when AI goes into effect will remove Mdef from that tank role all together, that is unless they make the dominate mind more effective to counter the AI aggro break that may or may not come. Remember its still in testing nothing has been published. They need to loose this if Mdef's are to retain their tank role. I use it PVE until the healers can catch up on thier heals on me. The above posters are correct. This will kill other members in your group if the nerf stands.
ROLES?? no one plays roles in this rpg...sad but true. ask anyone ..90% of ppl that are 4 months old or more. they will suggest a self sufficent template with healing and dmg al in one. you cal that roles?? no my slef i do not advocate this as i support the roles of the different professions. untill ppl are relying on o ne another and not being 8 self suffient players going for the same thing well....this game will contiue to be nerfed. lets just hope they dont take away our freedom with classes. but personally. everysoingle player having healing is f***ed up, how many MD's or MCM's do you see that are not bh's? non that i know of. How many ppl do you see taking all 3 healing professions...none that i know of...except MsNiL..whom i give props to for doing such a thing. no one really fills a role in this game we all follow FotM temps for FS grinding or stand alone tanking 5 ppl in pvp. BORING!! they need to enforce the roles somehow, how...i have no clue but just my feeling on this ROLE thing in this RPG where noone wants to really play a role(as far as combat goes)
Rinviero wrote:
Hulke wrote:
WHAT I DONT UNDERSTAND IS WHY THE PROFESSION THAT IS SUPPOSED TO TAKE THE MOST DAMAGE AND BE ABLE TO HOLD AGRO FOR THE GROUP WOULD HAVE A SKILL IN THE MASTER BOX THAT DROPS AGRO?
AI is a last ditch attempt to stay alive, and escape... It is not a method to tank high end mobs...
since it has a snare, it's not for escape...
I get terrets syndrome everytime I see the +RETREAT+ pop up overhead of something I am attacking....
Scruffylooking69 wrote:
Straker_Atrella wrote:
People are looking at this the wrong way. It has some good and some bad aspects.
AI is not designed to keep your group alive, it is designed to keep the Master Defender alive. Which it actually does even more now. First AI should not be something that a good MD in a group just runs up and hits. He should fight normal at first, healing himself and receiving heals. Only when they fall behind should he resort to AI. At which point, the Mob will now leave him alone. This means that the MD can now heal himself back to full and drop AI, he wont need to chain it. This means it will actually be easier on the Defenders Force bar.
Now a good group has communication, so they should know when AI is being hit. At this point another Tank draws agro (others then Jedi can tank too,) or they root and knockdown the mob away from the group. Then as soon as the MD is back off AI and healed up, he can start tanking again.
It's a nerf if you look at if from a bad group point of view, but actually better for the Master Defender. Good groups will still do ok.
The changes to Roots on high level mobs could have some impact though as well.
You make some good points, but hereisthe common AI scenario that I have been thinking of:
You are attacking a difficult target(s). You are getting beat up fairly quickly and find that your healing cannot keep up to the blows being delivered, which isn't too uncommon. The target(s) you are fighting have lost a conciderable amount of health as well, but you are forced to use AI anyways. The target drops agro and does the +Retreat+. So basically your target regains the majority of their health and you are left with a lot less force.
Now I know somebody will say "but this is a grouping game now, no such thing as solo anymore". So I've prepared a common scenario for them as well. The enemy has taken your tank down to low health, forcing him or her to use AI. The enemy runs away again, but your team members becomethe new targets for the enemy andthey getincapacitated. Master defender heals incapacitated teamates, but target has once again used +Retreat+ because all agro has been lost from the AI and theincapacitations. Enemy has full health once again.
As you can see, these aren't far-fetched scenarios at all. Things like this happen to people all the time.
GlargTheKelfn wrote:
Rinviero wrote:
Hulke wrote:
WHAT I DONT UNDERSTAND IS WHY THE PROFESSION THAT IS SUPPOSED TO TAKE THE MOST DAMAGE AND BE ABLE TO HOLD AGRO FOR THE GROUP WOULD HAVE A SKILL IN THE MASTER BOX THAT DROPS AGRO?
AI is a last ditch attempt to stay alive, and escape... It is not a method to tank high end mobs...
since it has a snare, it's not for escape...
Message Edited by KammaRocca on 10-11-2005 09:04 AM
EmporersFist wrote:
Honestly with all the complaining people do about jedi skills (like jedi aren't suppose to be powerful or something) who didn't see this one coming?
I was tricked. I got complacent. I figured, and this is where I went wrong, that we MDefs just got our master special fook'd not long ago when Snare Wars was in its infancy. So I thought it was some other profession's turn to get it in the rear. I see now that no one is safe, even if the stench of the last nerf hasn't fully worn off your prof yet.
I wonder if SOE will go for the triple incap...
KammaRocca wrote:
It sounds like it's going to work almost exactly like a smuggler's feign death. If there's no chance of failure, you've still got it better than they do.
Just don't use it within 30 m or so of the spawn point and it makes a great escape move. You just have to think ahead a bit so you can move far enough away from the lair that you don't re-draw aggro.
Now don't say I never gave ya nothin'.
Message Edited by KammaRocca on 10-10-2005 09:46 PM
The fact that this skill from a Jedi Mastery, taking killingsomething in the region of 13,000pickets to attain (not including FS)iscomparable as a Smuggler skill taking less than 500 pickets does phase you?
Message Edited by eternalfool on 10-11-2005 05:53 PM