Jedi Archive
Thread: DEVs are listening Describe how a snare on Cloak will be bad
mindspat wrote:
MX13 wrote:
Just get ready. Powers users are about to jump ship to Enhancer, and then it'll get nerfed.
Yes, if the /cloakers find more exploitable skills and means to bypass mechanics Enhancer will _ALSO_ get fixed.
Better yet, how about you all go to Lightsaber Mastery so that can get fixed. By god we all knwo it needs it!
Now you're just being a @#$. I'm a Cloak user and I have NEVER Exploited it. That's like calling all MDef Exploiters for how they use AI.
You asked for the reason, I gave it politely and you insult me.... thanks.
Good ideas, but the Dev's are too lazy.
Strykorr wrote:
Leave it as is with some new changes like this...
When you cloak you can have unlimited cloak or until your force runs out. You cannot Heal others, open mission terms, or anything like that. But you can heal yourself, regen mana, etc... Now when you come out of being "cloaked" you are then given a cool down on the ability. Maybe make it a 5 minute cool down or a 3 minute or whatever is right. That way you cannot decloak, put a choke on somebody then cloak again. How about at 0400 powers it has a 3 minute cool down and at Master Powers it has a 1 minute cool down?
note: if this idea has been brought up I apoligize, I did not read the entire thread just the first few posts and this idea appeared in my head so I decided to post it.
With a snare added to cloak, I really don't see how it is feasible for use in any fashion - either escape or first strike. With the snare, like other people have mentioned on the forums, a bh just has his droid /follow and a cloaked jedi is toast since he can't get away. As a first strike ability, I really don't see how we are going to be able to sneak up on anyone moving at a fraction of our normal speed unless we are standing in starports ganking people as they load organking jedi grabbing missions from a terminal at lag central (MO). I'm sure that this won't create any hate and animosity.
With a range of merely 32m on our abilities, the ability to actually sneak up on someone will pretty much be eliminated if we have to walk up close to them with a snare. Rangers and Riflemenwill generally be able to survive having a snare on their 'stealth' as most of them(obviously riflemen) will be using rifles that have arange of 60m+ (depending on therifle and the cyber arms). Getting close to their targets won't exactly be as much of a challenge.
I have no problem with the rest of the 'fixes' as I don't really think it is fair that we are able to heal ourselves and others while cloaked, loot while cloaked and use other force powers while cloakedand not suffer any negative consequences, adding a snare kind of takes this skill from being spectacular to useless. Without the snare, itremains useful,but not overpowered.
On a side note, I'm just curious, what is the reasoning behind allowing riflemen to haveConceal Shot that allows them to remain unseen while they attack, while absolutely everything that a jedi does while cloakedmakes them visible? Why is it not feasible to get into our own spaceships while cloaked if a rifleman can attack while stealthed (I must emphasize for the braniacs on the forums that I do NOT want to be able to attack or heal or use other jedi skills while cloaked). Also,ifrangers are getting an ability to detect invisibility, shouldn'tALL jedi (not just powers users) have the same ability...i meanrangers will be sensing people with their devices....jedi do feel people through the force ... I know I've read about jedi doing that sort of thing somewhere in a book or two.
The reason it will be bad is that the force usage will make it cost prohibitive to even bother activating. I cannot see the justification in spending 1000 or moreforce to get "Alpha Strike" when regardless if you are hitting first or last... if you are Powers you are hitting too weak to matter.
If you cannot freely move around, without snare, then it becomes a useless skill based just on Force consumption.
To dig deeper into other issues: Removing the ability to channel, heal, or apply defense like armor or aura while cloaked makes cloak 100% useless. I'd rather have armor, FR1, infusion, and aura going and be PREPARED for a fight than get 1st hit (which will be weak if I land it). Uncloaking w/o and healing or defenses going is just asking for trouble.
Take out the force cost of Cloak (yeah... I said it) or beef Powers up to be on par with sabers (including block and armor break) AND either way Force Shield, Force Feedback, Force Absorb, AND Force Defense need to be removed.
Message Edited by emovamalla on 09-21-2005 11:49 PM
How can Cloak be a game breaker? I just don't understand, we're giving up offensive and defensive skills to get Cloak. How can anyone complain about being attacked when they are special forces?
Strykorr wrote:
Leave it as is with some new changes like this...
When you cloak you can have unlimited cloak or until your force runs out. You cannot Heal others, open mission terms, or anything like that. But you can heal yourself, regen mana, etc... Now when you come out of being "cloaked" you are then given a cool down on the ability. Maybe make it a 5 minute cool down or a 3 minute or whatever is right. That way you cannot decloak, put a choke on somebody then cloak again. How about at 0400 powers it has a 3 minute cool down and at Master Powers it has a 1 minute cool down?
note: if this idea has been brought up I apoligize, I did not read the entire thread just the first few posts and this idea appeared in my head so I decided to post it.
Without question, I would rather see a limited 30-45 second timer on the use of Cloak with a cool down equal to BurstRun. If there's a snare associated with it the additional force cost should also be removed.
But /cloak should be available to scouts, spies, and thieves, too, not just assassins. It should also be possible to use a "stealthy" skill to sneak past guards and critters, though not necessarily possible to pilfer their belongings without raising suspicion. In contrast to the inventiveness of the players identifying a more useful purpose for a failed skill, the failure of mobs to notice containers being opened and emptied on their own is a sign of the game's lack of sophistication--specifically, in differentiation among mobs. An intelligent guard would notice the container or door opening. A kwi would not, enhanced or otherwise. The game needs to look at the character's impact on the environment when stealthy to determine whether or not he/she is "seen," not at the character himself.
The problem with the proposed "fix" is that it fixes the wrong problem through overkill, thereby causing other problems. The fix as proposed removes major functionality from an entire jedi tree. It does NOT convert /cloak into the intended alpha strike platform, laregely becuase jedi are not and should never be alpha strike characters. Even the dark side users are most powerful in response to the aggression of others, and a light side jedi should not be capable of a first strike. Ever.
By proposing a change in game mechanics rather than through more judicious inspection of the context in which a toon is using his or her skills, the game loses depth and suffers in the "fun" department. Look at the popularity of stealth games like Splinter Cell and Metal Gear. Careful use of stealth can and should be an alternative to brute force for almost ALL game situations, and in rare cases, it should be the only solution, Similarly, there will be times when there is no substitute for a good blaster at your side.
I urge the developers to forego to quick fix in lieu of real improvement to the game. "Balance" should not lead entropically to a least common denominator solution. Nor should the needed fix to targetability bugs on cloaked toons be considered as an acceptable justification for this castration of the skill.
Mis-use of /cloak in an unbalancing fashion--bearing in mind that players not use a skill the way it was intended to be used is a VERY different thing from whether or not the skill is or is not "working as intended"--can be fixed by
1) Removing the ability to interact with others (healing and attacking) while cloaked;
2) Adding in a chance for a cloaked jedi to be un-masked when they interact with environmental objects in a variable fashion depending on the "intelligence" of the mob, its proximity, and the action of the cloaked character; and
3) Adding a debuff for some reasonable duration preventing the re-application of /cloak.
All these options exist to one degree or another in other aspects of the game--no healing while under cover or melee attacks while prone for #1, a mob's consideration of level, faction, etc before aggroing a character for #2 (this was far better pre-CU and is currently a major--if not THE major weakness of the game's environment), and a direct analogy for #3 with how /maskscent. As for pulling agro while /forcerunning--"stealthy running" doesn't make a lot of sense to me. /forcerun and /cloak should be mutually exclusive. A snare, however, is just plain overkill.
I don't object to improving the intelligence and discipline we have to employ to be successful cloakers. I do obect to the ongoing dumbing down of what once showed the promise of being an enormously deep, intricate, and fascinating game.
Message Edited by grayoberon on 08-15-2005 09:34 AM
Huin wrote:
Also one GREAT IDEA is to give mpowers less snare.Let the dabblers PAY not the MASTERS!!!!I choose Mpowers to be a stealthy assasin. I gave up defender to have mpowers . Everyone knows having force armor and powers is a JOKE you loose all force faster than you can say your jedis name.So I lack ALOT of defense. I have like 10 seconds to kill and get out of sight or be pummeled by defenders. Cloak is our only hope to help us from getting clobbered. devs are only thinking from the mdef 0400 powers fotm point of view. If it is such a hassle then move it to MASTER box and its done. Give everyone a respec and anyone who uses cloak TRULy deserves it because they mastered powers. They wont have that problem anymore. .
Problem with doing that is they would have to add a skill to powers and that's more programming by putting cloak into master. Anyone who is a programmer would rather just add effects that already exist than really fix or enhance a skill ever notice that.