Jedi Archive
Thread: Compare Apples to Apples when complaining please.
jason67 wrote:
DocSavag wrote:
My point is that you compare a top of the line rifle with a top of the line saber but one is available for sale for 1 million credits and the other is no longer attainable or only at a cost of 10x to 100x the cost of that rifle in pearls and crystals that you still have to roll the dice on to get the damage you so casually toss out. If I had a perfect saber I wouldn't be complaining either but I don't. I have a crappy saber that is far below the weapon that a player in the game a couple of weeks can afford and use. That is the real issue for me.
I am sure that my saber will get better over time. Right now my crafting skills are sub par and I haven't tuned enough crystals or pearls to have a better saber. I'm constantly working toward that goal. The problem is that the lower end is dreadfully below standard weapons for non Jedi and that seems upside down to me.
My max damage is under 500. That sucks. It will get better and I'm not afraid to work for that but the problem is that currently the probabability of it getting better for months is not very good.
Jedi weapons vs normal weapons have always had that cost difference and unfortunately it is simply a part of the profession. Even Pre-CU jedi debated this issue, and it would appear that it is functioning the way they want it since no change has yet been made to it even though it has been a topic literally for years.
As true as that statment might be its also dismissive of the issue. Just because its been tha way for a while or even that they want it that way doesn't change the fact that it is funidmentally unbalanced for a player who has to spend at minimum 18 weeks to start a profession to be cannon fodder for a player who has invested 2 weeks in his profession. The imbalance is worse post CU. I'm not suggesting that newbie padawans should be able to run rampant in composite armor slaughtering everything. I'm suggesting the power curve in Jedi sabers is a bit too steep compared to regular professions and that this is the source of frustration. I haven't even made a suggestion for changing it. I"m only pointing out that no amount of number crunching is going to change the frustration level because its based on the lower end of the spectrum and not the high end that people use to post that everything is fair and balanced.
When I was a noob rifleman 2 years ago we were upset that our profession was terribly weak at lower levels. At higher levels it balanced out but that didn't matter. You don't only balance a profession at the top. You have to have balance throughout.
DocSavag wrote:
jason67 wrote:
Lorelai_Seabreeze wrote:
Add in current Post Cu lightsabers into that mix while your at it.
Better yet add in mine
4th Gen Double blade 2 pearls 2 crystals
31 force cost
2.4 speed
460-550 damage
114 SAC
Message Edited by Lorelai_Seabreeze on 09-01-2005 09:06 AM
I am, My personal Lightsaber is 719max damage, with a 9fc and 96 SAC. Yes that was crafted after the CU. And no I did not have all of my post-cu pearls(though I did have several) I tuned the last pearl I needed for those stats after the CU, and yes I invested the money into tuning all premiums, which can still be done by those that are really interested in obtaining a good lightsaber.
And as I stated in my original post I do understand where premium pearls not dropping is an issue, but this is a seperate issue than the one being addressed above. My post mainly addresses those that are proclaiming that Jedi are worthless and need to have the damage on their LS's increased etc... you get the point. This is not an accurate statement in the context it is typically delivered. You dont' need the overall stats of the LS increased based on their examples or yours, what you need are premium pearls to start dropping again so that you can get decent stats on what already exists in game. this is already an issue they are working on addressing.
Its a question of how long it will go on though and what the final resolution will be. Right now its already been months and promises to be at least 2 more. People are understandably frustrated. 6 months is a very long time in MMO life.
Now, I am a full temp Jedi, have been playing since Launch, did the holo grind, the village grind...everything. Basically, dont dismiss me as a "noob" who doesnt know what he is talking about. I am MLS/M Enh/4040 healer. I like the template, and it works well for me. I have 3 pearls that are pre-CU qualities. Yes, I think that the drops should be fixed for pearls because new Jedi are getting owned in PvP. However, stop complaining! 6 months is a long time to wait, eh? Well, try out Ranger some time. We got an update within 1 month of Launch, but we were put aside for Player Cities with our Update only half finished. Since then, we have been promised an update numerous times (after the Jedi revamp, after the OTHER Jedi revamp, after RotW, after the CU, after the other other Jedi revamp, after the smuggler revamp, after the FRS...) but ALL those promises have been broken. Live with 6 months of a "bad" saber. Try a profession that now has NO USE because people couldn't get to harvesters safely (so give everyone camo, why not?), because people can harvest more than us with MBH and another combat profession (they can do more damage to creatures than we can, therefore they kill faster and can harvest more creatures per hour) because our "bonus" to harvesting is not enough. Oh, did I mention that camps are now worthless because some poeple couldnt even wait 15s to call their bike? And our traps...great items with a lot of potential. But why not go pick up Smuggler instead? Smuggler does all the states our traps do, but to Players too!
Oh, did I also mention that Rangers wanted camo to remove us from the radar and screen? Of course, we were told that that was too powerful and potentally exploitable. Of course, Jedi and Riflemen getting that SAME skill is not overpowered.
My point you ask? Live with a wait. Put others before the Jedi for once. Give the Smugglers a revamp, yes, but think about a profession that is COMPLETELY broken. Smugglers not smuggling is a problem, yes. But a Ranger being the last person you want in a group killing animals is just wrong. A Ranger being the last person to be invited to a Krayt hunt is also wrong. Rangers are hunters, but the hunter being the last on a hunt is wrong. Think of the other professions for once.
jason67 wrote:
Jedi Rifleman
roughly 600 Defenses roughly 250 Defenses
roughly 250 accuracy roughly 250 accuracy
600-700 range 400-1184 range
Message Edited by jason67 on 09-01-2005 07:03 AM
I have a problem with just looking at the numbers on this issue. FIrst of all with rifle in hand, a CL80 Rifleman actually has closer to 350 defenses. You have to include the fact that their defenses are coming from more than just the Rifleman tree.
But other than just the numbers, you have to consider the fact that most Jedi don't have those kind of defenses. The advantage of the elite profession is that As your offensive capabilities increase, so do your defensive capabilites. Unfortunately, for Jedi, you have to pick: Defense, Offense, crowd control, healing, etc. and do that one at a time.
I don't have any defender in my template at the moment. But I feel like I am being forced to grind out at least two lines because of the fact that I cannot get my lightsaber damage over 550 with the crystals and pearls available to me at the moment. (I have spent millions on crystals since CU and hours killing krayts). WIth two lines of defender, my defenses will be, without force abilities activated, around 220. I can push my defenses up over that amount: But I have to use force power to do that. Not to mention, if I want Force Armor turned on, that costs force every time I get hit.
Force cost to activate + Force cost everytime I get hit + Force cost everytime I try to hit opponent + terrible saber that can't kill anything quickly = 
.
I feel like we can't compare Jedi to other professions at all because of the fact that the variables are not the same. We have a 4th "HAM" bar that deplenishes with EVERYTHING we do. We have weapons that use resources that are very rare and unusable to any other profession. We have the burden of having to watch our backs for Bounty Hunters no matter where we are or what we are doing.
I think there is no way to do a 1-1 comparison between elite professions and Jedi right now. You can use examples from other professions, but to try to make a straight comparison is not a good idea.
Please point out a single place where I suggested that rangers should wait because something needs to be done with Jedi? The last time I checked this was the Jedi forum where we discuss the Jedi profession and how it affects us. If I was in the ranger forum talking about it you would have a point. Since I'm not you don't.
By all means fix Ranger and Smuggler and other broken professions. While you are at it fix Merchant which has been waiting a lot longer than 6 months on a revamp to a very broken profession. But..stop trolling threads that were up to now a honest and civil discussion of issues and perceptions with off topic points.
starcrusher04 wrote:
jason67 wrote:
Jedi Rifleman
roughly 600 Defenses roughly 250 Defenses
roughly 250 accuracy roughly 250 accuracy
600-700 range 400-1184 range
Message Edited by jason67 on 09-01-2005 07:03 AM
I have a problem with just looking at the numbers on this issue. FIrst of all with rifle in hand, a CL80 Rifleman actually has closer to 350 defenses. You have to include the fact that their defenses are coming from more than just the Rifleman tree.
But other than just the numbers, you have to consider the fact that most Jedi don't have those kind of defenses. The advantage of the elite profession is that As your offensive capabilities increase, so do your defensive capabilites. Unfortunately, for Jedi, you have to pick: Defense, Offense, crowd control, healing, etc. and do that one at a time.
I don't have any defender in my template at the moment. But I feel like I am being forced to grind out at least two lines because of the fact that I cannot get my lightsaber damage over 550 with the crystals and pearls available to me at the moment. (I have spent millions on crystals since CU and hours killing krayts). WIth two lines of defender, my defenses will be, without force abilities activated, around 220. I can push my defenses up over that amount: But I have to use force power to do that. Not to mention, if I want Force Armor turned on, that costs force every time I get hit.
Force cost to activate + Force cost everytime I get hit + Force cost everytime I try to hit opponent + terrible saber that can't kill anything quickly =
I feel like we can't compare Jedi to other professions at all because of the fact that the variables are not the same. We have a 4th "HAM" bar that deplenishes with EVERYTHING we do. We have weapons that use resources that are very rare and unusable to any other profession. We have the burden of having to watch our backs for Bounty Hunters no matter where we are or what we are doing.
I think there is no way to do a 1-1 comparison between elite professions and Jedi right now. You can use examples from other professions, but to try to make a straight comparison is not a good idea.
You are right there is no way to compare any normal profession to jedi with 100% accuracy. There will always be some differences which is why it is important that when we are creating these posts for Devs requesting changes that we be as accurate as we possibly can be when stating numbers so that we can be taken seriously.
The problem with defenses that you stated is not a simple one. Mainly for the fact that in any other profession they are built into the combat class. We originally had ours mainly built into our combat class as well. That was when MLS had a 65% block rate which they found was somewhat overpowering, forced everyone to master Lightsabers, and reduced the functionality of defender. Because of those impacts they changed it so that most of the defenses were found in Defender. Then they got all sorts of complaints because defender was now required on top of lightsaber. Now they have given several other options for those that desire to take them, force armor for enhancers, which is not as effective as aura is but I also do not think that it should be(personal opinion), I think the way it functions now is a reasonable alternative to defender which has a higher cost for the defenses since you chose not to take the defender lines(makes sense to me). Cloak in the powers tree is another form of defense which can literally negate 100% of the damage since they can no longer target or attack you but restricts your ability to attack in return. And finally healer has infusion which also helps to negate some of the incoming damage with automatic heals every few seconds.
It is completely your choice as to how you want to mix and match these types of defenses that they have now built in but you can not expect one form to match the others specifically the Defender lines who's main function is to help reduce damage. That is just not a reasonable comparison IMO. Our defenses can be summed up in a single line xx4x defender which can outperform any other combat professions defenses. You are not forced to master defender in order to obtain aura, it actually requires a very low skill point investment for the defenses it offers, but it is still a choice that you must make yourself, it's kinda like normal professions having to choose doc/cm because they need to heal, yet we don't see any Jedi complaining about that function at all do we? The only complaint we really see about healer is that Master's have little to no benefit.
jason67 wrote:
Jedi Rifleman
roughly 600 Defenses roughly 250 Defenses
roughly 250 accuracy roughly 250 accuracy
600-700 range 400-1184 range
Jedi Rifleman
roughly 750 Defenses roughly 500 Defenses
roughly 250 accuracy roughly 250 accuracy
600-700 range 600-1300 range
Message Edited by WookieOgre on 09-01-2005 10:25 AM
Oh yeah, forgot to add Rifleman also have AIM which is an accuracy buff. It gives the user 240+ accuracy.
This is one reason why I'm able to hit Master Defenders with my MBH/MR alt, 309 base accuracy/AIM/Pyro = more accuracy than the Jedi's defenses.
DocSavag wrote:
The tendency of people to want to extend their misery to other humans is astounding. Why would anyone who has dealt with the terribly broken professions like Ranger and Smuggler want to wish that on others? Its frankly mean spirited.
Please point out a single place where I suggested that rangers should wait because something needs to be done with Jedi? The last time I checked this was the Jedi forum where we discuss the Jedi profession and how it affects us. If I was in the ranger forum talking about it you would have a point. Since I'm not you don't.
By all means fix Ranger and Smuggler and other broken professions. While you are at it fix Merchant which has been waiting a lot longer than 6 months on a revamp to a very broken profession. But..stop trolling threads that were up to now a honest and civil discussion of issues and perceptions with off topic points.
I think the point is that any work done affects all other work done. There are only 24 hours in a day. There are not 24 Jedi hours, 24 Ranger hours, etc. So when asking for a change to happen to Jedi, you have to realize that work done on that issue will affect other work done. If a developer spends 2 meetings discussing whether premium pearls should drop again and then spends 20 hours working with the coders on trying to find a new way to ensure that pearl drops are what you want, that's time not spent on other professions.
Pearls are working as intended. Pearls that are easy to get have less chance of tuning to 100+ damage...but you can collect a lot of them easily. Pearls that are harder to get have a better chance of tuning to that level. Point is that it's RANDOM and a fair crystal can tune to 120, -9Fc, -.19 speed too. So asking for them to change that would require a lot of time to discuss and code. And that affects all other professions. By saying "6 months is too long to wait" you imply that this needs to be done NOW, in other words superceding all other changes. That may not be what you meant, but it certainly a valid way to read what you wrote.
Do I actualy think that's what you meant? No. I spent time reading your posts on various forums, and I don't believe that's the type of person you are. But at the same time, there are a lot of people who do feel this should supercede all changes, and it the right of every person who's a Ranger at heart but has a Jedi toon to come in here and post a perspective that doesn't put Jedi first. Many Rangers have a Jedi toon. Many Jedi have a Ranger toon. It's all a matter of which community you associate with more.and like you have a right to post that 6 months is too long, others have a right to say "yeah, but so is 26 months for Ranger...I think this pearl issue can wait."
Yes, let's compare crafted weapons that can be made by the factory full or had from an easy quest with absolutely best case sceneario, four absolutely perfect pearls, that are not currently available and may never be again, and a 12pt MLS crafted saber. Yes, THAT is a fair comparison.
The problem is NOT that sabers are bad inheritly, in fact, as discussed to death in far far better thread, they have a distinct advantage in certain situations. The problem is any monkey with RoTW can get a better gun with one easy quest than the vast majority of jedi, who have to tune a large number of pearls that either have to be farmed from krayts themselves or buy at insane prices, and will never tune to perfect.
Don_T_Shoot wrote:
I'm so glad the original poster wasted everyone's time with his inciteful analysis.
Yes, let's compare crafted weapons that can be made by the factory full or had from an easy quest with absolutely best case sceneario, four absolutely perfect pearls, that are not currently available and may never be again, and a 12pt MLS crafted saber. Yes, THAT is a fair comparison.
The problem is NOT that sabers are bad inheritly, in fact, as discussed to death in far far better thread, they have a distinct advantage in certain situations. The problem is any monkey with RoTW can get a better gun with one easy quest than the vast majority of jedi, who have to tune a large number of pearls that either have to be farmed from krayts themselves or buy at insane prices, and will never tune to perfect.
I believe the point of the post was to stop attacking how uber the weapons are being made, because frankly they are not better than a saber in a lot of PvP situations.
Like he said, slicing & PU's are a different story. I think he just wanted to make the point we shouldn't be whining for nerfs with normal crafted weapons because they are compareable to high damage sabers (whether or not you have one is not his point)
Missing facts:
1: Non pre-cu Lightsabers
My saber have somewhere close to 550 max damage and 18 fc.
My friend's saber is about 380 max damage and 34 fc.
2: Underestimated Bounty Hunter defense
BH have +250 defense with Duelist Stance.
3: Overestimated Jedi defense
I have 20 defense and 157 accuracy (always struck at max damage when defense is ~20)
4: Damage Multipliers
Jedi Attack 1: x1.8 Body Attack
Jedi Attack 2: x1.8 Head Attack
Jedi Attack with warm up: x2.5 Power Attack
Bounty Hunter Attack 1: x1.9-x2.375 Critical Shot
Bounty Hunter Attack 2: x2.0 Torso Shot
Rifleman Attack with warm-up: x3.4 Sniper Shot
WookieOgre wrote:
jason67 wrote:
Jedi Rifleman
roughly 600 Defenses roughly 250 Defenses
roughly 250 accuracy roughly 250 accuracy
600-700 range 400-1184 range
You're pretty spot on with your comments about weapons however as you said when you add in slicing with a PU, you get start to see the edge go to normal weapons. For instance the Rifle you made me (it's finally fixed in the last patch lol) with a damage PU has a min damage of 640. That is more than my Saber which has a max damage of 709. I do believe that has to be factored into anything that is stated because any person doing PvP will have 1) ADK on the top notch weapons 2) PU to maximize the potential of the weapon
Now as far as your comparison above, let me change somethings for you. Jedi can have 250 Defenses (about) with Defender (and I assume you are talking about MLS with your comparison as well). If they activate Aura they have around 750.A Rifleman/BH has as you said 250 Defenses BUT can activate another 250 just like Aura since they are a Tank Class just like Defender. So their defense is more like 500.
Now combine the real damage and defense range you get this:
Jedi Rifleman
roughly 750 Defenses roughly 500 Defenses
roughly 250 accuracy roughly 250 accuracy
600-700 range 600-1300 range
That is a better comparison to what you were talking about. Then of course we get to the no wearing real armor, non-Jedi wearing armor sliced for 75% AB, force bar, limited range......you can start to see how some non-Jedi are very good at taking down.
But yes, a Saber with over 700 damage is a very mean weapon and is very compareable to the best wepons a non-Jedi can have (damage wise)
Message Edited by WookieOgre on 09-01-2005 10:25 AM
I think if you bundle all of the issues up like this though that you simply will get no response. What you are looking at is several different issues and I think that they need to be addressed seperately. Yes they do impact each other, and that's part of the reason they do need to be addressed seperately, and preferrably in order. I think our first step is to address the Base weapons damage to make them reasonably comparable. Then we should address the issue of how they compare to a weapon using a pup. And I can see how you could easily have a different perspective on this and all of the information is important and relative, but if it's not addressed individual then there are two many pieces to do at once and it will likely get put off.
I also didn't bring in any foods to this issue since again I think that should be kept completely seperate because it simply complicates the base issues where they dont' need to be complicated. Ultimately I think the foods/skills tend to be relatively balanced between Jedi and non-Jedi. the problem we run into is some people feel that their specific Jedi template should be just as effective as another and that is not the case. That's kinda like saying that a squad leader or a ranger mixed in with any other template should be as powerful as a MR/MBH, or a MBH/MCM etc... you get my point. Those are template issues which in my personal opinion the professions are relatively balanced. I have a Jedi that is easily as powerful(in most cases significantly more powerful) than any standard template 1v1. In most cases my Jedi can handle 2 and sometimes even 3 opponents at once. So I think what you're referring to is mostly to do with template choices and not actual problems in the professions.
I also did not include AIM because it's a 5 second warmup timer for like a 10 second benefit, which pretty much negates it's use in anything but the initial shot. When I was a BH I could catch an unprepared Jedi and incap them in 3 shots. But against a prepared Jedi I would often lose. and you're right my numbers are fairly subject to the template chosen and I was trying to get a general average of those stats. Any Jedi who has xx4x defender will have roughly 600 defenses while running aura, which is also a common choice in most templates. Some will have more and others less, same with accuracy and same with the opponent.
Message Edited by ArranSound on 09-01-2005 09:28 AM