Jedi Archive
Thread: Armor Break Resistance skill instead of Avoid Incapacitation
cloudwalker1 wrote:
Ehh LS x4x4 has head hit and saberthrow.
Which are close on same damage. Defender with armor break resistance would be unbalancing. Just because YOU want to be the last man standing doesnt mean you deservearmor break resistance in top of the innate armor and innate defenses.
EstoMax wrote:
I POSTED THIS IN ITS OWN THREAD BUT HERE IT IS
I see a few threads coming up with people wanting Master Defender to have a "Armor Break Resistance" special added in light of the AI changes. I don't believe this special should ever be considered wether I was a Master Defender or not (I am not basing this on my templete but as a whole in general). Maybe you agree or don't and that is great. Please express your views on this matter.
Let me explain.
Defender is already nuts with Jedi vs Player and this would onlyfurther throw off what little balance we may be hanging onto if you are a MD (iI' looking at it from both Jedi and non Jedi sides). As far as Jedi vs Jedi it would make Defender a MUST to survive and no 1 discipline should be required that is why there are 5 to choose from.
Let me break it down further into some numbers. Please read slowly lol
Lets say I am a Master Defender and I fight 2 non master defenders. If I had ABR theneach would equally be half as effective against me as and I would be hitting them individually two to three times harder then they are hitting me.
(I believe these are all correct numbers)
Me getting hit with ABwhich isa75% reduction to my armor effectiveness which iscountered by aneffectiveness by 65% with ABRI beleive leads you to something like armor break instead being now 16% effective when applied against you. Against a master defender at 7000resistance(52.5%) this leavesthe MDdown to 5800 -5900 (47.5%) instead of the usual armor break leaving a MD with 2450 (24%). A non master defender may have even less innate thus making your dps ration even more unbalanced because of this special. This move would make a master defender wat to "out of the balance" for most if anot every other profession and class out there. Again, with this in mind you would almost have to be a MD to complete with a MD period.
I hope this may open eyes to the potential downfall of a move like this (putting Armor Break Resistance in Master Defender).
Message Edited by EstoMax on 10-14-2005 02:52 AM
Your not taking into account a number ofpotential intercedents here.
- The use of ABR by an MDef will need to be applied like any special - taking a round of combat.
- ABR will have an associated HAM cost - removing a percentage of Action and Mind which can be adjusted to balance.
- ABR will have an associated Force Cost, again which can be adjusted to balance.
- ABR can have an effecttimer (like AB) that can be very short, again allowing adjustment for balance.
- ABR can have a cooldown timer which may be linked to other abilities, again allowing adjustment for balance.
- ABR may not have a 100% success rate against attempted Armour Breaks on the MDef, allowing a chance to sill get the AB on,again allowing adjustment for balance.
You see - it's not just about the numbers you used. There's a whole slew of potential balance points that can be considered from both the point of view of the MDef and that of the opponent.
I hear your arguments, but still think that all things considered this idea has great potential.
Peace.
Mistwaver wrote:
VaainEldritch wrote:
Pday wrote:
the problem remains, this would make m.def a must for j vs j
Not necessarily. There's at least one item in the beta that grants armour-break resistance to anyone. You could say "then why give it to Mdef as a skill" - well my answers would be that an armour break reistance fits so perfectly with the concept of a front-line tank/warrior and that when a non-Master Defender Jedi fights a Master Defender they will need to adjust their tactics accordingly.
They still have chance to apply the armour break (thus immediately eliminating one of the best defender abilities - Innate Armour) and can keep trying to apply it, or they need to look for other weakness in the MDef's overall template - remember MDef's with MSabers lose a lot of ancillary skills in order to be able to heal and survive and will have either no FR/speed or no Force control (channel) or weak healing, and Mdef dabblers lose on offence (less LS accuracy and speed and a smaller range of specials).
It's a 2 minute buff with a 60 minute cooldown timer. How many times do you get armorbroken within 60 minutes? I know for a fact this item would be pretty useless to me, as I get armorbreak applied on me nearly constantly whether I'm doing PvP or PvE. Being immune to armorbreak for 2 minutes every 60 minutes does absolutely nothing for me.
Armour Break is indeed in constant use in both PvP and in PvE. I can see immunity for 2 minutes in PvE being useful, and in PvP too depending on how you time the use.
ABR as a skill has several valid options for balancing (see my last post in this thread).
The only way I would support this is if Enhancer had An armor break resistance buff added to to master. Seeing how 2/3 of our master specials are now worthless, it's only fair.Force armor is sister element of innate armor, and Enhancers also deserve this opportunity.
It could maybe only be for 50% for 30min.
If this went to MDEF only, i would fight tooth and nails against it to make sure it didn't happen.
Ho'mer
chembelec wrote:
this is a great idea, master defenders need a little something extra to actually give superior defence over enhancer/defender dabblers.
WIthout some sort of offensive penalty , no this is not a great idea for masters defenders to have this only. It would be the new "I win" skill. Defenders already have good defense. YOu just need more useful specials. Not something that every jedi will "Have to have" in pvp to compete.
Opie76 wrote:
The only way I would support this is if Enhancer had An armor break resistance buff added to to master. Seeing how 2/3 of our master specials are now worthless, it's only fair.Force armor is sister element of innate armor, and Enhancers also deserve this opportunity.
It could maybe only be for 50% for 30min.
If this went to MDEF only, i would fight tooth and nails against it to make sure it didn't happen.
Ho'mer
Unfortunately 100% of Defender Master abilities are now worthless...
Putting ABR in the Enhancer resist line would require control as tight as that possible with an activation ability as I would propose for Defender. Perhaps it could go in the Resistance line as a progressive percentage over time from basic to improved to advanced (Master box) - you'd have to propose limitation that make it viable though (I can't as I'm not an Enhancer).
Let's not forget, the Defender Master box special has been gutted. AI has required (in the Developers eyes, obviously) several adjustments since the CU (and one pre-CU, not that it matters) that have removed its use as an escape method, as a tanking method and made it a liability for your group to use when tanking and a "I'll wait here and burn my own Force until you want to kill me" skill in PvP.
JediAsh wrote:
Trying to be constructive here; what if you added a small (5-15%? just guesses) offense penalty? That way you as a Mdef can be the total tank, but you wont be doing as much damage.
I see your point, but I would counter it by saying that taking Master Defender already leaves you at an offensive disadvantage. If you are MLS too, you lose a slew of very potent ancillary skills that aid both attack and "survivability" and if you dont take MLS you are straightway less effective offensively.
I think ABR in MAster Defender could be balanced in other ways (duration, cooldown, effectiveness, HAM costs, Force cost, etc) without imposing further penalties on an Master Defenders offensive abilitiy.
I also agree with the previous poster that maybe both enhancer and defender should get this AB resist.
Make the defender version a toggle and have a +AR in the state branch of enhancer? /shrug Just throwing out ideas here.
What do you think about making it removeable by powers jedi?
Erynder wrote:
I see some people saying '' Defender already has superior defenses ''
I am a Master Defender currently, but I will switch to Enhancer 3402 / Defender 0040. Can anyone give me a reason not to do and keep my template ?
Give me solid numbers and what they do, don't just say '' Well ,you have valor, aura, melee defense ''. because I know most are useless.
You still get the innate armor bonus at 4400 defender. Ranged and melee defense mods are buggy right now. If those ever get looked at you will be fine. This is an issue that effects everyone, not just jedi defenders. All aura does is make the person hitting you hit for min dmg as compared to max dmg. Force armor eats force fast in group grinding or mass pvp. So defenders still have the advantage. I'll repeat, having this Armor break resistance skill in defender tree alone would be very bad for balance in the FRS.
Please don't use the "My skills are broke" we deserve one of the more unbalancing skills ever to be handed to us line.
Enhancer woes:
Master Enhancers cannot activate FR1, and FR3 is now worthless. Regain Consciousness is no longer desirable due to insane regen penalty. Stasis has limited use, and with FR no nerfed due to snares will not be as tatical. Our entire Resist line is pretty pathetic.