Jedi Archive
Thread: I don't think people understand Code development
modernLife
Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:16 am
#14
mero909 wrote:
I just think that the testing environments and the production environments DO NOT mirror each other. Both are drastically different and that's why bugs appear on live that aren't caught in testing.
Most of the bugs that have affected me the most in the game HAVE been identified during testing. I work in testing and if we let bugs slip through like this I wouldn't have a job any more.
The problem is how companies are now managed, i.e. they're controlled by targets. I've worked in the IT industry for 10 years and seen it happen to companies over time whereby they became restricted by targets and lose all focus on actually satisfying their customers needs. I've had it happen to me in a job and been so fustrated to want to help someone like beforebut couldn't without putting my own job at risk due to targets that require meeting (we were once even told to stop doing our best and to only do the bare minimum neccessary from now on!). I moved on from that job.
XanKrieger
Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:18 am
#15
mero909 wrote:
XanKrieger wrote:
mero909 wrote:
I just think that the testing environments and the production environments DO NOT mirror each other. Both are drastically different and that's why bugs appear on live that aren't caught in testing.
My friend u are todays winner, thats why this games bugged to hell
At first I thought you said Whiner instead of winner...haha! I was like, "How did I whine!?" Yeah, it's pretty obvious that the two environments aren't the same. That's mistake #1.
lol
if i insult a person they know without thought trust me
OffTheGrid
Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:25 am
#16
Ok. I just reread the posts before you made that one and all I see is responses from people who get what you said and one post from someone who tuned you out because of the tone of your initial post. I think you are overreacting.
wildcat84
Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:28 am
#17
Broom wrote:I am a 37 year old software engineer / debugger specialised in QA. I think I have a fairly decent grip on development, thanks. And from my perspective, I see poor quality control, worse version control and lacking response to customer demands.
kkthxgb,
Linna
Likewise, I am a 33 year old Systems Engineer/Administrator. I've worked in IT professionally for more than 12 years, 2 of which in IBM's server division Quality Assurance Testing department.
Software for RAID cards that IBM wouldn't sell 10,000 of was CONSTANTLY patched and debugged for even the TINIEST of flaws. We'd work around the clock if needed to meet a release date, and if something was broken, the release date would be shelved until it was fixed.
Contrast that with SWG. SWG has over 200,000 subscribers (or did before Pub 24). It's sold in excess of a million retail box copies in stores. Customers of IBM didn't pay $15/month/per RAID card to continue to use them, though they of course cost more than $30. Doing the math, SOE probably grosses more a month in sub fees than was spent on R&D at IBM on any RAID card development I participated in, and makes FAR more in gross revenue than our entire department did.
It all comes down to money. SOE/LA HAS the money, but are unwilling to spend it on proper ISO-9000 compliant development.
Message Edited by wildcat84 on 10-21-2005 12:33 PM
OffTheGrid
Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:28 am
#18
Me too. Well, I'm two years younger.
Broom wrote:
I am a 37 year old software engineer / debugger specialised in QA. I think I have a fairly decent grip on development, thanks. And from my perspective, I see poor quality control, worse version control and lacking response to customer demands.
kkthxgb,
Linna
Eskie
Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:33 am
#19
GuyLarson wrote:I am not in the industry, but I am studying Computer Engineering, and have had to take a number of Software Engineering courses. I am simply here to let people know how the development of code goes down.(...)
I am in the industry, I am designing and writing commercial applications. If I dared to deliver a product without at least discussing the negative feedback a customer has for me from beta tests, or even worse told him to "step back and call later when you calmed down" after he rang my phone about the bugs that are preventing him from doing his business, I would be responsible for multi-million losses to my company because of that unsatisfied customer spreading the word and driving whole market segments to competitors, and I would be unemployed within 1 day.
It doesnt matter what software development looks like. The issues people are having with SOE are customer relations issues, and SOE has the luxury of postponing publishes at their leisure if they need more time implementing the changes the players want, a luxury I dont have without looking unprofessional in the customers eyes and losing reputation.
Its not about the bugs, its about flawed designs being implemented despite knowing players dont like them.
oANUBUSo
Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:36 am
#20
GuyLarson wrote:
I am not in the industry, but I am studying Computer Engineering, and have had to take a number of Software Engineering courses. I am simply here to let people know how the development of code goes down.
People keep calling for revamp this revamp that, change this change that why this O NOES!! Here is how code goes down. I don't realy feel like reading a bunch of flames from highschoolers/middleschoolers who think they know "Code Development" because you don't im sorry you just don't. This is something learned within the industry and collaborating with superiors who have worked within the industry for a number of years.
** I will skip a few process' within this due to irrelavance.
The code is first designed using one of many different styles of development. Most popular style within the industry is UML diagrams (UML basicly breaks up classes and interfaces).
After Development comes the coding of this EMENSE project.
After a couple years of coding a tweeking it is ready to be internaly tested for performace/style.
During this time it is easier to *BUFF other stuff than *NERF.
Alpha Testing/Beta Testing normaly extended to the public but sometimes kept within the company.
Skip some stuff (Not realy important to point of this thread).
Now upon release there are obviously some stuff unbalanced, NO mmorpg is perfect upon release or even after patches.
Sorry to burst peoples bubbles but there are always flaws within programs that have insane amounts of code, maybe not logicly or with the syntax, but with the balance.
One way the "balance" stuff is to *buff or *nerf.
The problem with nerfing is that you have to go all the way back through ALL of your code, through each class that has the variable or method needed change. This adds human error (It's just there).
It is much easier to bring everyone up to a certain level by *buffing. Easier to add another seperate class to handle this, therefor less chance for human error.
This is what SOE has done. They have *buffed the npc's to a point without compensation to the pc.
This is not defending SOE in the least, but simply explaining why something like this patch has happened. Maybe if you can take a step back and realize what has happened (Just an unoriginal and unthoughtful pub thought to balance the game)
Since i have cancled my account and moved on for now, I could care less what SOE does at the moment. Hopefuly if i come back they will of fixed some of the issues and changed what needs to be changed. I just see blame put in some of the wrong places. Strictly informative post.
*Buff = To bring everything up to a certain level
*Nerf = To bring a certain thing down to a certain level
Have fun, goodluck, and may the Dev's be easy on you all
I could care less about the coding aspect at this point. I know enough about it to know how much work it entails which is why i dont complain about addingnew things in particular. my personal discrepicies with this games lies in the business aspect of it, the customer and the service/product provider, and the lack of cummunication we have with SOE that should be inherent in such a relationship. I know why FRS was disabled since SOE took the time to inform the community of such actions and i honeslty didnt have a problem with it. but what i dont know is why its still diabled and whats going on with the system itself or when even we can expect to have it re-enabled. I was under the inpression that this was going to be diabled for only a short while until the respec proccess passed, but somehow it mutated into an idefinate status. Why are so many old buggs still prevelant in this game, specificaly in this profession. there are so many adjustments being made that many ppl are inerpreting themas nerfs simply because theres a hiderance to them where otheres may see it as a new benefit recieved.
Zoner2002
Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:41 am
#21
They've had over 2 years to get this game right and God knows how many years of development before that, bringing out the excuse that it takes time to fix bugs and fix proffessions doesn't cut the mustard anymore, this game should be fixed with them adding improvements and content, NOT REVAMPS!!!!!!!
shrekpop
Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:44 am
#22
During this time it is easier to *BUFF other stuff than *NERF.
So why are they nerfing us?
Kamujin
Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:47 am
#23
GuyLarson wrote:
I am not in the industry, but I am studying Computer Engineering, and have had to take a number of Software Engineering courses. I am simply here to let people know how the development of code goes down.
People keep calling for revamp this revamp that, change this change that why this O NOES!! Here is how code goes down. I don't realy feel like reading a bunch of flames from highschoolers/middleschoolers who think they know "Code Development" because you don't im sorry you just don't. This is something learned within the industry and collaborating with superiors who have worked within the industry for a number of years.
** I will skip a few process' within this due to irrelavance.
The code is first designed using one of many different styles of development. Most popular style within the industry is UML diagrams (UML basicly breaks up classes and interfaces).
After Development comes the coding of this EMENSE project.
After a couple years of coding a tweeking it is ready to be internaly tested for performace/style.
During this time it is easier to *BUFF other stuff than *NERF.
Alpha Testing/Beta Testing normaly extended to the public but sometimes kept within the company.
Skip some stuff (Not realy important to point of this thread).
Now upon release there are obviously some stuff unbalanced, NO mmorpg is perfect upon release or even after patches.
Sorry to burst peoples bubbles but there are always flaws within programs that have insane amounts of code, maybe not logicly or with the syntax, but with the balance.
One way the "balance" stuff is to *buff or *nerf.
The problem with nerfing is that you have to go all the way back through ALL of your code, through each class that has the variable or method needed change. This adds human error (It's just there).
It is much easier to bring everyone up to a certain level by *buffing. Easier to add another seperate class to handle this, therefor less chance for human error.
This is what SOE has done. They have *buffed the npc's to a point without compensation to the pc.
This is not defending SOE in the least, but simply explaining why something like this patch has happened. Maybe if you can take a step back and realize what has happened (Just an unoriginal and unthoughtful pub thought to balance the game)
Since i have cancled my account and moved on for now, I could care less what SOE does at the moment. Hopefuly if i come back they will of fixed some of the issues and changed what needs to be changed. I just see blame put in some of the wrong places. Strictly informative post.
*Buff = To bring everything up to a certain level
*Nerf = To bring a certain thing down to a certain level
Have fun, goodluck, and may the Dev's be easy on you all
I've been writing code for about 15 years now. Trading system where mistakes cost real money, not just annoy your customers.
What you've described only vaguely resembles the REAL WORLD software developement process.
SOE's mistake is a matter of resolution. No one care if profession A is 10% better then profession B while there are alot of cool things to do in the game that are not dominated by this imbalance.
When people really start worrying about these minor difference is when they have exhaused all other means of exploring the game.
Grieving the forums, more fun than playing the game
And it loads faster too!
jlutz11
Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:57 am
#25
GuyLarson wrote:
I am not in the industry, but I am studying Computer Engineering, and have had to take a number of Software Engineering courses. I am simply here to let people know how the development of code goes down.
People keep calling for revamp this revamp that, change this change that why this O NOES!! Here is how code goes down. I don't realy feel like reading a bunch of flames from highschoolers/middleschoolers who think they know "Code Development" because you don't im sorry you just don't. This is something learned within the industry and collaborating with superiors who have worked within the industry for a number of years.
** I will skip a few process' within this due to irrelavance.
The code is first designed using one of many different styles of development. Most popular style within the industry is UML diagrams (UML basicly breaks up classes and interfaces).
After Development comes the coding of this EMENSE project.
After a couple years of coding a tweeking it is ready to be internaly tested for performace/style.
During this time it is easier to *BUFF other stuff than *NERF.
Alpha Testing/Beta Testing normaly extended to the public but sometimes kept within the company.
Skip some stuff (Not realy important to point of this thread).
Now upon release there are obviously some stuff unbalanced, NO mmorpg is perfect upon release or even after patches.
Sorry to burst peoples bubbles but there are always flaws within programs that have insane amounts of code, maybe not logicly or with the syntax, but with the balance.
One way the "balance" stuff is to *buff or *nerf.
The problem with nerfing is that you have to go all the way back through ALL of your code, through each class that has the variable or method needed change. This adds human error (It's just there).
It is much easier to bring everyone up to a certain level by *buffing. Easier to add another seperate class to handle this, therefor less chance for human error.
This is what SOE has done. They have *buffed the npc's to a point without compensation to the pc.
This is not defending SOE in the least, but simply explaining why something like this patch has happened. Maybe if you can take a step back and realize what has happened (Just an unoriginal and unthoughtful pub thought to balance the game)
Since i have cancled my account and moved on for now, I could care less what SOE does at the moment. Hopefuly if i come back they will of fixed some of the issues and changed what needs to be changed. I just see blame put in some of the wrong places. Strictly informative post.
*Buff = To bring everything up to a certain level
*Nerf = To bring a certain thing down to a certain level
Have fun, goodluck, and may the Dev's be easy on you all
I dont think most of us give a crap about code developement. What we care about is customer service, and at the very least to have someone acknowledge our concerns instead of telling us to stop posting them.
We all understand that product development and testing takes time. What we dont understand and what we refuse to accept is the total and utter lack of any customer service or support.
Dariane_Kamutsovy
Fri Oct 21, 2005 10:05 am
#26
I will not go into depths, but a major flaw in your logic.
If they would nerf (or rewrite, go back in code) to fix things: this was done and called CU.
As I remember, they also said it would be easier to enhance, change, alter and balance things.
If they now resolve *again* to *patch* methods like outside functions, buffing instead fixing, then the human error was made at the beginning of the DESIGN process (or as you call it: the UML schematics).
If properly thought over, GOOD setup of real object oriented modelling (which UML is), this pile of BS would not be live. Good UML basis and programming techniques will cause things *NOT* to break by adding something completely different. SOE has demonstrated time over time, they can do it: add some functionality and then something completely unrelated is bugged. (*unrelated as in *no logical relation with the new functionality whatsoever, thinking in object terminology).
As such, I'd not say SOE are professionals, but mere amateurs. I've seen programmes made by schoolkids that were better and logical in design that this heap of bantha poodoo.