Jedi Archive
Thread: I don't think people understand Code development
Aeternali wrote:
Once developement is complete Testing begins. First there is Internal testing where the programmers test their own code. Based upon what i see in TC this is not done very well. I would expect the occassional bug to get in to TC but too many get through. External testing is where the customer test the new system. Bug are identified and fixed before publishing. I have personally tried my best to help out here but many times i see the same bugs in live as I identified in TC. Which makes me think the process is broken.
Once testing is complete you puch the new system to live.
I honestly thought that SOE learned its lesson and would listen to the community more after the group XP nerf a couple of months back. The now seem to listen even less. Changes are made without any community or customer involvement.
No system survives that is created in a dark room where only a few precious Devs have any say or input. I have lost my faith in SOE and their entire development system. It fails to deliver because they do no listen. They have their own skewed ideas as to what Star Wars is and what the game is about. How many times have they changed the underlying game system to force the players to use the skills as intended? Far too many...
Well, I've been programming for 200 years. 
Ummm, I just think that the two environments (testing and production) they use are different... The deployment process is also probably at fault as well. It could be a combo of many things. I also agree with whoever said that SOE was putting pressure on the Devs. That's a major cause for concern as well. With a push to release a new "expansion" for both the Episode 3 release in the movies and the release on DVD...it's obvious the pressure is there.
As for finding bugs in live...that's normal...there are ALWAYS going to be bugs you miss. It's expected...but Jabba's palace missing? That's pretty bad. hehe
GuyLarson wrote:I am not in the industry, but I am studying Computer Engineering, and have had to take a number of Software Engineering courses. I am simply here to let people know how the development of code goes down.People keep calling for revamp this revamp that, change this change that why this O NOES!! Here is how code goes down. I don't realy feel like reading a bunch of flames from highschoolers/middleschoolers who think they know "Code Development" because you don't im sorry you just don't. This is something learned within the industry and collaborating with superiors who have worked within the industry for a number of years.** I will skip a few process' within this due to irrelavance.The code is first designed using one of many different styles of development. Most popular style within the industry is UML diagrams (UML basicly breaks up classes and interfaces).After Development comes the coding of this EMENSE project.After a couple years of coding a tweeking it is ready to be internaly tested for performace/style.During this time it is easier to *BUFF other stuff than *NERF.Alpha Testing/Beta Testing normaly extended to the public but sometimes kept within the company.Skip some stuff (Not realy important to point of this thread).Now upon release there are obviously some stuff unbalanced, NO mmorpg is perfect upon release or even after patches.Sorry to burst peoples bubbles but there are always flaws within programs that have insane amounts of code, maybe not logicly or with the syntax, but with the balance.One way the "balance" stuff is to *buff or *nerf.The problem with nerfing is that you have to go all the way back through ALL of your code, through each class that has the variable or method needed change. This adds human error (It's just there).It is much easier to bring everyone up to a certain level by *buffing. Easier to add another seperate class to handle this, therefor less chance for human error.This is what SOE has done. They have *buffed the npc's to a point without compensation to the pc.This is not defending SOE in the least, but simply explaining why something like this patch has happened. Maybe if you can take a step back and realize what has happened (Just an unoriginal and unthoughtful pub thought to balance the game)Since i have cancled my account and moved on for now, I could care less what SOE does at the moment. Hopefuly if i come back they will of fixed some of the issues and changed what needs to be changed. I just see blame put in some of the wrong places. Strictly informative post.*Buff = To bring everything up to a certain level*Nerf = To bring a certain thing down to a certain levelHave fun, goodluck, and may the Dev's be easy on you all
this isn't what they did. this sort of thing you describe involves having a consistent plan, a particular goal in sight.
SOE's strategy here is bandaids, quickfixes, and there seems to be no goal in sight. it's all "err, let's try this?" and then they patch it up real quick so that it meets a deadline, and then it borks a bunch of stuff -- ooops -- and then they muck around some more, and break more stuff... ooops....
Aeternali wrote:
The original poster honestly got this wrong. I do this for a living and have been a programmer, database architect and program manager for the US Air Force as well as my own business now. I am going to explain a simple version of the process.
The first stage is called requirements definition. At this stage you figure out exactly what you want the program to do. You ask questions of your clients as to what is to be achieved. If you were building a house this is where you would find out how many bedrooms, bathrooms and other things would be in the house. This is the stage where SOE fails to meet industry standards.If you get it wrong here the rest of the process is doomed.
The next stage is Design. This is where you take the requirements above and put it all on paper and clear up any unanswered questions.
Development is the next stage and this is the stage where programmers finally write of change code. I am sure that SOE has very competent programmers but i think the problem is in the earlier stages of development.
Once developement is complete Testing begins. First there is Internal testing where the programmers test their own code. Based upon what i see in TC this is not done very well. I would expect the occassional bug to get in to TC but too many get through. External testing is where the customer test the new system. Bug are identified and fixed before publishing. I have personally tried my best to help out here but many times i see the same bugs in live as I identified in TC. Which makes me think the process is broken.
Once testing is complete you puch the new system to live.
I honestly thought that SOE learned its lesson and would listen to the community more after the group XP nerf a couple of months back. The now seem to listen even less. Changes are made without any community or customer involvement.
No system survives that is created in a dark room where only a few precious Devs have any say or input. I have lost my faith in SOE and their entire development system. It fails to deliver because they do no listen. They have their own skewed ideas as to what Star Wars is and what the game is about. How many times have they changed the underlying game system to force the players to use the skills as intended? Far too many...
I've been in the game dev. for years already, usually bad mistake like we are experiencing right now, are due the damn marketing and editorial team which force game designer to work around until the marketing is satisfied.
Even worse. It clearly demonstrates that they do not listen to the customer at all. Even when we are trying to help and perform our function with in the Development process.
Also, the differences between what Tiggs said was happening in the groupd XP nerf and what went live shows that they do not communicate properly.
I might also want to point out that this is bad for business with an expansion coming out just days away.
I am a guild leader on flurry (LoS) with 200 or so people in it. I love the game and i work hard to keep people playing. I now face loosing many of my veterans, leaders and officers over this. Fewer and fewer people are logging in and if the leadership of the vet players gone it will be much harder to hold it together. I am very concerned here and i would like some cooperation from SoEto keep the game, whichi have spent a good portion of my free time building, alive.
mero909 wrote:
Well, I've been programming for 200 years.
Ummm, I just think that the two environments (testing and production) they use are different... The deployment process is also probably at fault as well. It could be a combo of many things. I also agree with whoever said that SOE was putting pressure on the Devs. That's a major cause for concern as well. With a push to release a new "expansion" for both the Episode 3 release in the movies and the release on DVD...it's obvious the pressure is there.
As for finding bugs in live...that's normal...there are ALWAYS going to be bugs you miss. It's expected...but Jabba's palace missing? That's pretty bad. hehe
Actually, the two environments, Test and Live, are standard induestry environment setups. I use both of them each and everytime i make a web application for any client.
However, the pressure on the Dev statement is likely accurate as well as another persons statement about marketing and sales people involvement.
I clearly show the problem is in the Requirements Definition part of the process where what is being built is determined. The Dev's are only programmers and do what they are told and nothing more. It is the management that are responsable for this either through direct supervision or delegation.
You can delegate the work but not the responsibility.
The fact that management has an affect on the requirements portion of the process also sort of confirms why SoE does not listen until the get enough cancelled accounts.
Aeternali wrote:
Even worse. It clearly demonstrates that they do not listen to the customer at all. Even when we are trying to help and perform our function with in the Development process.
Also, the differences between what Tiggs said was happening in the groupd XP nerf and what went live shows that they do not communicate properly.
I might also want to point out that this is bad for business with an expansion coming out just days away.
I am a guild leader on flurry (LoS) with 200 or so people in it. I love the game and i work hard to keep people playing. I now face loosing many of my veterans, leaders and officers over this. Fewer and fewer people are logging in and if the leadership of the vet players gone it will be much harder to hold it together. I am very concerned here and i would like some cooperation from SoEto keep the game, whichi have spent a good portion of my free time building, alive.
Yeah well, tried logging in last night on my bh, just to see how many jedi were online, and on the 100 jedi on my friends list, i saw 0, yes 0 jedi playing. Normally theed was full of jedi dueling, fooling around, theed was empty.
I don't realy feel like reading a bunch of flames from highschoolers/middleschoolers who think they know "Code Development" because you don't im sorry you just don't. This is something learned within the industry and collaborating with superiors who have worked within the industry for a number of years.
I don't feel like reading a bunch of flames fromcollegestudentswho think they know "Code Development" . I've been coding since the mid 90's so **edit** noob. 
mero909 wrote:
I just think that the testing environments and the production environments DO NOT mirror each other. Both are drastically different and that's why bugs appear on live that aren't caught in testing.
Not true, testing is done by players to find the bugs that the DEVS don't catch, but players are too busy testing their new UBER temp, or dueling in front of the frogs, rather than testing game content. Code breaks just like anything else, it's never perfect and never will be.