Jedi Archive
Thread: I don't think people understand Code development
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JediMasterCarlito
Fri Aug 22, 2003 11:11 am
#1
I've been programming commmercial applications for almost 10 years now, and have been head of a development team for the past almost 5 years or so. With the knowledge I've obtained from my own work experience and from several friends in the business, many longer than myself, I have to say that SOE is failing (obviously) somewhere.
As someone else mentioned, I think they may have capable programmers on staff, but I believe their requirements and design phase is severely flawed. They're building this application for us, not themselves, yet I feel their "users" are not quite asked for appropriate feedback or ideas on how new (or modifications to old) systems will be implemented. Honestly, every time they come up on the boards writing "we're going to do this, what do you think?", I feel it is really just a smoke screen. It is like me telling one of my clients "We're going to give you this application, but let me know what you think about it so we can discuss how you feel internally, just don't expect anything different."
I'll give them a small pass on their internal testing, only due to the sheer size of this game. However what really chaps my arse is not so much "new" bugs that make it to live, but bugs that are reported, many times over, and still make it to live. That makes *no sense* to me at all.
As someone else mentioned, I think they may have capable programmers on staff, but I believe their requirements and design phase is severely flawed. They're building this application for us, not themselves, yet I feel their "users" are not quite asked for appropriate feedback or ideas on how new (or modifications to old) systems will be implemented. Honestly, every time they come up on the boards writing "we're going to do this, what do you think?", I feel it is really just a smoke screen. It is like me telling one of my clients "We're going to give you this application, but let me know what you think about it so we can discuss how you feel internally, just don't expect anything different."
I'll give them a small pass on their internal testing, only due to the sheer size of this game. However what really chaps my arse is not so much "new" bugs that make it to live, but bugs that are reported, many times over, and still make it to live. That makes *no sense* to me at all.
GuyLarson
Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:43 am
#2
I am not in the industry, but I am studying Computer Engineering, and have had to take a number of Software Engineering courses. I am simply here to let people know how the development of code goes down.
People keep calling for revamp this revamp that, change this change that why this O NOES!! Here is how code goes down. I don't realy feel like reading a bunch of flames from highschoolers/middleschoolers who think they know "Code Development" because you don't im sorry you just don't. This is something learned within the industry and collaborating with superiors who have worked within the industry for a number of years.
** I will skip a few process' within this due to irrelavance.
The code is first designed using one of many different styles of development. Most popular style within the industry is UML diagrams (UML basicly breaks up classes and interfaces).
After Development comes the coding of this EMENSE project.
After a couple years of coding a tweeking it is ready to be internaly tested for performace/style.
During this time it is easier to *BUFF other stuff than *NERF.
Alpha Testing/Beta Testing normaly extended to the public but sometimes kept within the company.
Skip some stuff (Not realy important to point of this thread).
Now upon release there are obviously some stuff unbalanced, NO mmorpg is perfect upon release or even after patches.
Sorry to burst peoples bubbles but there are always flaws within programs that have insane amounts of code, maybe not logicly or with the syntax, but with the balance.
One way the "balance" stuff is to *buff or *nerf.
The problem with nerfing is that you have to go all the way back through ALL of your code, through each class that has the variable or method needed change. This adds human error (It's just there).
It is much easier to bring everyone up to a certain level by *buffing. Easier to add another seperate class to handle this, therefor less chance for human error.
This is what SOE has done. They have *buffed the npc's to a point without compensation to the pc.
This is not defending SOE in the least, but simply explaining why something like this patch has happened. Maybe if you can take a step back and realize what has happened (Just an unoriginal and unthoughtful pub thought to balance the game)
Since i have cancled my account and moved on for now, I could care less what SOE does at the moment. Hopefuly if i come back they will of fixed some of the issues and changed what needs to be changed. I just see blame put in some of the wrong places. Strictly informative post.
*Buff = To bring everything up to a certain level
*Nerf = To bring a certain thing down to a certain level
Have fun, goodluck, and may the Dev's be easy on you all 
XanKrieger
Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:57 am
#3
all i got was i know code and you dont, at any rate the point is Devs are qualified "professionals" and shouldnt exaclty find tweaking code or creating a new revamp to testto be back breaking
mero909
Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:03 am
#4
I just think that the testing environments and the production environments DO NOT mirror each other. Both are drastically different and that's why bugs appear on live that aren't caught in testing.
XanKrieger
Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:04 am
#5
mero909 wrote:
I just think that the testing environments and the production environments DO NOT mirror each other. Both are drastically different and that's why bugs appear on live that aren't caught in testing.
My friend u are todays winner, thats why this games bugged to hell
OffTheGrid
Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:05 am
#6
Your analogy works if they used a waterfall design methodology. More likely they used a technique that is lower ceremony. At any rate I get the jist of what you are trying to say. The only thing that concerns me with their design is it "on the surface" doesn't appear to handle inheritance well, that's why one fix seems to break something else.
GuyLarson
Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:08 am
#7
Just simply saying blame SOE for not allowing the developers the time to freaking test their dam code the implemented. There sumed up for you all. Sorry forgot I had to put it in the most basic for people to understand. Blame SOE for the time constraints they put on the Devs.
mero909
Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:08 am
#8
XanKrieger wrote:
mero909 wrote:
I just think that the testing environments and the production environments DO NOT mirror each other. Both are drastically different and that's why bugs appear on live that aren't caught in testing.
My friend u are todays winner, thats why this games bugged to hell
At first I thought you said Whiner instead of winner...haha! I was like, "How did I whine!?" Yeah, it's pretty obvious that the two environments aren't the same. That's mistake #1.
mindspat
Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:10 am
#9
Hmm...good point although you fail in relation to the '"nerf" comment. It was devised in responce to UltimaOnline when they went through a massive restructuring and the players then felt as if using their weapons were "much like fighting with nerf toys" thus coining the phrase..."they nerfed us!"
Nerf means to essential make useless.
Buff is to increase.
One extremely valid point you touch on is adjusting the parameters to allow for future improvements. This is a process of development that SOE needs to make transparent.
OffTheGrid
Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:11 am
#10
GuyLarson wrote:
Just simply saying blame SOE for not allowing the developers the time to freaking test their dam code the implemented. There sumed up for you all. Sorry forgot I had to put it in the most basic for people to understand. Blame SOE for the time constraints they put on the Devs.
Ok. Who was that directed at? I thought this was an intelligent post.
CasKenobas
Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:12 am
#11
Ill tell you my problem with the way SoE handles situations like this
First, these patches are playtested before they are released. The test server is an exact copy of the servers we are playing on supposedly, so whatever you get on TC you will get live. If they know these mobs are far above the players capabilities, or the SL are way too powerful if you combine them with a mbh,msl,rifles xx4x template, then they should delay the patch even further and balance it until it becomes live and causes all the problems we are experiencing now.
SoE never chooses to do this, because they have deadlines. For us its "heres a bugged patch - we will fix it after we release ToW and get your $30. Then fix ToW bugs as well"
In the words of oh so many SoE CSRs .. working as intended ...
GuyLarson
Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:13 am
#12
OffTheGrid wrote:
GuyLarson wrote:
Just simply saying blame SOE for not allowing the developers the time to freaking test their dam code the implemented. There sumed up for you all. Sorry forgot I had to put it in the most basic for people to understand. Blame SOE for the time constraints they put on the Devs.
Ok. Who was that directed at? I thought this was an intelligent post.
It twas until i had to dumb it down into the point a 3rd grader could read.
I shoulda realized that though considering that newspapers are written at a 4th grade level. Way go America. Illiterate I R!
Broom
Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:16 am
#13
I am a 37 year old software engineer / debugger specialised in QA. I think I have a fairly decent grip on development, thanks. And from my perspective, I see poor quality control, worse version control and lacking response to customer demands.
kkthxgb,
Linna
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