Image Designer Archive

Thread: Image Designer RIP-OFF

Gyopi
Mon May 31, 2004 10:07 pm
#27






Bravoda wrote:

First of all, you don’t have a monopoly on boring tasks. Have you tried sitting in camps for hours to grind wilderness XP? Or perhaps dancing in a cantina for hours to level up. Or perhaps crafting the same item over and over again just to get the XP. I am sure most of you have and would agree that these things rate fairly high on the boredometre.


Allthough this is true, the problem right now is that after you master you still get to do the same boring task! I don't know of any rangers who master and then sit in camps all day.


In a nutshell, my point is this: Don’t blindly charge a fixed rate based on what the top players are earning. Remember the in-between players who are just getting by and be reasonable about it. I probably wouldn’t have gotten annoyed with the ID above if she hadn’t threatened to jump the price to 10k. She might have just been roleplaying, but it did annoy me. Remember, you are not the only ones frustrated with the stat migration nerf.



I really don't know of anyone who does not make any acceptions for new players who can not make money easily. Most people are reasonable. Of course, most of us will want to tell any special deals in private because we don't want a giant crowd of people suddenly claiming that they are poor and need cheap stat migration.


By the way, after talking to some master doctors, a set of top quality doctor buffs costs about 2K per set. Just try going up to a random master doctor claiming you are poor and ask for a full set of buffs for 5K, or whatever. I don't think you will get a very good response. Image designers tend to be *more* reasonable than most people, not less.











Momoko--Master Tailor near Kaadara on Lowca--
Come to Sitateya boutique at (5083 5804) on Naboo for elegant fashions, accessories, cute outfits, uniforms or any other clothing needs.
Eimi -- Master Bioengineer - Master Image Designer on Lowca--
Eimiko--Master Image Designer on TestCenter--

KeyTokikoMima
Mon May 31, 2004 11:00 pm
#28

/rant on.


This phenomenon of people charging a price you might consider high is something I'm very familiar with. I go to Disneyland a lot, since I live right near by. They charge $20 for a $1 camera, and people are happy to pay it. Why? Because they have no other reasonable option, and if they'd thought ahead or planned, they wouldn't have to pay it. But they do anyway.


The fact is that NO ONE is holding a gun to your head and demanding you wear your armor without buffs. No one is holding a gun to your head, and telling you you must wear 80% composite armor. You WANT to do it. You therefore would like Stat Mitigation, as a convenience. For that, the Image Design community has set rates we consider fair.


I resent the implication that I'm greedy, or out to hurt poor newbies. Generally speaking, Stat Mitigation is only useful to those who where expensive full composite suits. Anyone who can afford those suits can afford 15k for the convenience of wearing it.


I'm not telling you how to play, but it's completely possible for a player to level to TKN in two 4-hourdays, without armor. I've done it. Knowing that, it's hard for me to imagine where some one is coming from when they say 15k is too much.


If you're brand new to the game, armor is a bad idea, anyway. It gets eaten up quickly, and doesn't really protect you for the value of the Durability lost. And if you're a Newbie that was somehow magically gifted your own set, I suggest rerolling your stats if it's that important to you, before taking the gift.


As for our ten minutes not being as valuable as an AFK dancers ten minutes, or the AFK camp user/crafters... I laugh. Unlike other professions.. we can't be macro'ed anymore, and we have to be physically present at the end of the process, and at the beginning. You can alsoearn the XP forMaster Dancer more than six times over in the time it takes to Master Image Design.


If Stat Mitigation continues to bothers you so much, I suggest you try earning your way up to Novice Image Designer. Then you can charge your friends and everyone you meet as little as you like.


My best estimate puts it at 11 hours, 26 minutes, and 40 seconds if you self Image Designed grinded to Novice. Working with a partner, you could get it in as little 5 hours, 43 minutes, and 20 seconds. So part of that time investment is what that 15k is for paying back the now MASSIVe amounts of time an ID must spend grinding to be of any value to anyone. It's not just the ten minutes you spend with them, it's also the hours of waiting on the clock, alone in a tent somewhere.


Sorry, I've ranted a bit too long...


The ironyof this rant is that I've done Stat Mitigations for free... always. I take tips, but don't require them. I always get very, very small tips for doing nothing but Stat Mitigations(5k is the biggest I've seen voluntarily given). I've gotten 30k+ tips for actually image designing someone. I've come to dislike Stat Mitigating, and in the futuremay simple refuse to do them, except as a service to customers who I'm actually changing something about. This post is making that all the more likely.


*sighs*


/rant off


I apologize if I've offended anyone.. all I meant to say at the beginning of this was:


"If you don't like it, don't pay it. Move along, citizen."
Bravoda
Mon May 31, 2004 11:06 pm
#29






Gyopi wrote:





Bravoda wrote:

First of all, you don’t have a monopoly on boring tasks. Have you tried sitting in camps for hours to grind wilderness XP? Or perhaps dancing in a cantina for hours to level up. Or perhaps crafting the same item over and over again just to get the XP. I am sure most of you have and would agree that these things rate fairly high on the boredometre.


Allthough this is true, the problem right now is that after you master you still get to do the same boring task! I don't know of any rangers who master and then sit in camps all day.


Thats because they spent countless hours sitting in camps all day in order toget tomaster. I might also mention that apart from healing wounds and looking cool, camps are now redundant thanks to the ability to call pets and vehicles anywhere in 15 seconds, which pretty much wipes out the utility of an entire tree of the profession. An unintended effect, but one that impacts heavily on a profession that isalready in shreds.


Don't pick on rangers. They have suffered enough.


In a nutshell, my point is this: Don’t blindly charge a fixed rate based on what the top players are earning. Remember the in-between players who are just getting by and be reasonable about it. I probably wouldn’t have gotten annoyed with the ID above if she hadn’t threatened to jump the price to 10k. She might have just been roleplaying, but it did annoy me. Remember, you are not the only ones frustrated with the stat migration nerf.



I really don't know of anyone who does not make any acceptions for new players who can not make money easily. Most people are reasonable. Of course, most of us will want to tell any special deals in private because we don't want a giant crowd of people suddenly claiming that they are poor and need cheap stat migration.


The IDs that I have talked to in the game on two separate serversall say that the going rate is 10-15k, unless you are an obvious newbie, and that I should be thankful that they are not charging 50k (?!). This is the attitude I have a problem with and fail to see what is reasonable about it.


By the way, after talking to some master doctors, a set of top quality doctor buffs costs about 2K per set. Just try going up to a random master doctor claiming you are poor and ask for a full set of buffs for 5K, or whatever. I don't think you will get a very good response. Image designers tend to be *more* reasonable than most people, not less.



Point taken, although I would like to point out that it does cost the master doctor to perform buffs, not just time but credits. Plus they dont have a niftyUI dedicated to themselves to ensure they get paid after they perform the buffs.


As for Image designers being more reasonable than most people, outside of stat migration, I would generally degree. IDs tend to be "peoples people", in it more for the socialisation than any desire for reaping in the credits. That's why I think the IDs I have metare handling the stat migration servicethe wrong way. If they really valued their customers, they wouldn't charge ridiculous rates (50-60k), but what the customer could reasonably afford in recompense for the service performed. I like the idea of it being like a tip, rather than a set charge you demand, but thats my personal preference.
















Tapa
Tue Jun 01, 2004 2:20 am
#30






KeyTokikoMima wrote:




Bravoda wrote:




First of all, you don’t have a monopoly on boring tasks. Have you tried sitting in camps for hours to grind wilderness XP? Or perhaps dancing in a cantina for hours to level up. Or perhaps crafting the same item over and over again just to get the XP. I am sure most of you have and would agree that these things rate fairly high on the boredometre.


Allthough this is true, the problem right now is that after you master you still get to do the same boring task! I don't know of any rangers who master and then sit in camps all day.


Thats because they spent countless hours sitting in camps all day in order toget tomaster. I might also mention that apart from healing wounds and looking cool, camps are now redundant thanks to the ability to call pets and vehicles anywhere in 15 seconds, which pretty much wipes out the utility of an entire tree of the profession. An unintended effect, but one that impacts heavily on a profession that isalready in shreds.


Don't pick on rangers. They have suffered enough.


Her point was that at the end of earning all the Wilderness Survival XP, you don't have to do it anymore. Image Designers have to wait 10 minutes EVERY time they use their abilities, and they have to do that in one of five places, usuallyin a crowded city. Rangers get to pick whatever spot they like, PLUS they have the option of crafting tents to speed up the process.


All of that is beside the point though.. at the end of all that camping, Rangers can instantly access their tents, and aren't forced to wait 10 minutes for them to appear. That was her point.


And Camps aren't useless: you can sit in them and heal wounds, completely avoiding spending 15 points on Novice Medic. Not that that's very useful, but I'm sure when the Revamp comes some day, a function will be added to Camps.. someday.


In a nutshell, my point is this: Don’t blindly charge a fixed rate based on what the top players are earning. Remember the in-between players who are just getting by and be reasonable about it. I probably wouldn’t have gotten annoyed with the ID above if she hadn’t threatened to jump the price to 10k. She might have just been roleplaying, but it did annoy me. Remember, you are not the only ones frustrated with the stat migration nerf.



I really don't know of anyone who does not make any acceptions for new players who can not make money easily. Most people are reasonable. Of course, most of us will want to tell any special deals in private because we don't want a giant crowd of people suddenly claiming that they are poor and need cheap stat migration.


The IDs that I have talked to in the game on two separate serversall say that the going rate is 10-15k, unless you are an obvious newbie, and that I should be thankful that they are not charging 50k (?!). This is the attitude I have a problem with and fail to see what is reasonable about it.


Well, I would pay the going rate if you want it. Just because everyone wants a set of Mandolorian armor, doesn't mean that people should charge less for it. Quite the opposite, in a capatalistic society, demand drives up the price. So it is very reasonable.


If they charge less for the less fortunate, then they will be expected to become the judges of who and who is not less fortunate. That costs time, and mental effort, whereas a blanket price for everyone is simple, and as fair as possible. It is alsomore efficient, whether the consumer likes it or not. And if they don't like it, they are welcome to try looking for someplace else to spend their credits.


That at it's heart is how capatialism works. Nothing is ever forced on the consumer.


By the way, after talking to some master doctors, a set of top quality doctor buffs costs about 2K per set. Just try going up to a random master doctor claiming you are poor and ask for a full set of buffs for 5K, or whatever. I don't think you will get a very good response. Image designers tend to be *more* reasonable than most people, not less.



Point taken, although I would like to point out that it does cost the master doctor to perform buffs, not just time but credits. Plus they dont have a niftyUI dedicated to themselves to ensure they get paid after they perform the buffs.


Which is why most doctors charge before the buffs, or recordyou if you don't pay, and post/send your nonpayment to fellow doctors. I wish their was a UI for Doctors to catch cheats, but that's not the fault of the Image Design Community.


And if their was a majority of doctors that charged only what it cost to make their buffs, I would agree with your first point. But the fact is that most doctors charge 5 or more times their costs, and can buff much faster than an ID can mitigate. It's not like it's a risk, either. Doctors WILL sell their buffs if they want to sell them. So the fact that there's an initial investment of resourses is cancelled out by the MASSIVE requirement of time it takes to make money as an ID, by a far measure.


As for Image designers being more reasonable than most people, outside of stat migration, I would generally degree. IDs tend to be "peoples people", in it more for the socialisation than any desire for reaping in the credits. That's why I think the IDs I have metare handling the stat migration servicethe wrong way. If they really valued their customers, they wouldn't charge ridiculous rates (50-60k), but what the customer could reasonably afford in recompense for the service performed. I like the idea of it being like a tip, rather than a set charge you demand, but thats my personal preference.


We(ID's) charge only what we think is fair. And price is set by and for_ourselves_ not at allfor our customers. For our customers sakes, we don't overcharge beyond a certain level... well, most don't. But thatis as much concernas I think a customer is entitled to.


People don't set prices becausethey care aboutthe customer,they set it becausethey care about themselves, andthey lower prices to entice customers to purchase from them.


If Doctors really cared aboutcustomers like you say, they would buff for free all the time. If Weaponsmiths cared abouttheir customersmore than making money, they would make their best weapons free to all. You see where this is going?


And as far as the socialization rewards: I can only say that 9 out of 10 of myStat-Mitigate-Only customers go AFK the moment the Stat Mitigation process has started. There is no socializing with them.If I set prices, I would definately be inclinedgive a discount for someone that was willing to be the 1 out of 10 Stat-Mitigate-Only person that actually talked to me, though.Maybe you can get a discount by offering that?












So many colors it gets confusing.. but the point is in that 10 mins Im migrating your stats I could have done 4 janta missions (just hitting the poles) for 120K, I could have waited on my shuttle and traveled, or I could have fought a PVP battle, hopefully winning. Many things can be done in that 10 minutes, so I think charging 50K is VERY reasonable.





r Tapa Gwaca r
r Melia' Teg r
r Elder Jedi r

r Elder Doctor r

Vendors located in Purgatory, Lok. 4145, -3575
Just_Bri
Tue Jun 01, 2004 2:54 am
#31






Bravoda wrote:





Gyopi wrote:





Bravoda wrote:

First of all, you don’t have a monopoly on boring tasks. Have you tried sitting in camps for hours to grind wilderness XP? Or perhaps dancing in a cantina for hours to level up. Or perhaps crafting the same item over and over again just to get the XP. I am sure most of you have and would agree that these things rate fairly high on the boredometre.


Allthough this is true, the problem right now is that after you master you still get to do the same boring task! I don't know of any rangers who master and then sit in camps all day.


Thats because they spent countless hours sitting in camps all day in order toget tomaster. I might also mention that apart from healing wounds and looking cool, camps are now redundant thanks to the ability to call pets and vehicles anywhere in 15 seconds, which pretty much wipes out the utility of an entire tree of the profession. An unintended effect, but one that impacts heavily on a profession that isalready in shreds.


Don't pick on rangers. They have suffered enough.


In a nutshell, my point is this: Don’t blindly charge a fixed rate based on what the top players are earning. Remember the in-between players who are just getting by and be reasonable about it. I probably wouldn’t have gotten annoyed with the ID above if she hadn’t threatened to jump the price to 10k. She might have just been roleplaying, but it did annoy me. Remember, you are not the only ones frustrated with the stat migration nerf.



I really don't know of anyone who does not make any acceptions for new players who can not make money easily. Most people are reasonable. Of course, most of us will want to tell any special deals in private because we don't want a giant crowd of people suddenly claiming that they are poor and need cheap stat migration.


The IDs that I have talked to in the game on two separate serversall say that the going rate is 10-15k, unless you are an obvious newbie, and that I should be thankful that they are not charging 50k (?!). This is the attitude I have a problem with and fail to see what is reasonable about it.


By the way, after talking to some master doctors, a set of top quality doctor buffs costs about 2K per set. Just try going up to a random master doctor claiming you are poor and ask for a full set of buffs for 5K, or whatever. I don't think you will get a very good response. Image designers tend to be *more* reasonable than most people, not less.



Point taken, although I would like to point out that it does cost the master doctor to perform buffs, not just time but credits. Plus they dont have a niftyUI dedicated to themselves to ensure they get paid after they perform the buffs.


As for Image designers being more reasonable than most people, outside of stat migration, I would generally degree. IDs tend to be "peoples people", in it more for the socialisation than any desire for reaping in the credits. That's why I think the IDs I have metare handling the stat migration servicethe wrong way. If they really valued their customers, they wouldn't charge ridiculous rates (50-60k), but what the customer could reasonably afford in recompense for the service performed. I like the idea of it being like a tip, rather than a set charge you demand, but thats my personal preference.























If you look at my sig, you will se that I have done sixty five stat migrations. I'll save you the math, that is one stat migration shy of eleven hours looking at 10 minute timers. Where am I now? Have I mastered the profession? NO! I am at 1-1-1-1. Yes, that is right. AFTER SIXTY FIVE STAT MIGRATIONS I AM AT 1-1-1-1! I am now increasing my prices to a set rate of 30k each just to get people to go away. I am tired of it, and I quite frankly don't even want to log on any more. Don't want to pay it? Don't, I don't care. I don't need your money, and I don't want to do your migration. The 10k mainenence I paid on my sparsely furnishedSMALL naboo house ( which would avarage fifty minutes to collect based off of what the miserly playerbase tips on my server for the blessing of my time ) will last the next two weeks. And the 160k I have in my bank will keep it going long after that. Yes, that is right. After 65 stat migrations, I have 160k. So don't come walking up to me with your 80% sliced composite and FOTM template and uber weapons andexpect me to work for your table scraps or tobe nice any more. If you want a change to your appearance, I will be more than happy to do it. For free even. You want a stat migration? Move along.



____________________________________________________________
"V E E L A" S A I D - Retired Master Smuggler, cancelled 7/27/2005. SOE, think about every non-Jedi "cancelled" signature you've seen, and remember that there will be more as you forget the communities that makes this game's heart and soul. Entertainers, Crafters, Hybrids, Non-Jedi Combats, and Smugglers. When you are closing shop on SWG, remember that you ignored the REAL community to cater to an alpha class that assured this game would never be "balanced."

*Veela encourages you to adopt this sig
Tviter
Tue Jun 01, 2004 4:17 am
#32

When I hit Master ID I gonna charge 65k for stat migrate. ID is the hardest thing to master in the galaxy. To come to ID II in the Entertainer tree takes 200min. lol. So hit master will take months. If u look at commando or BH takes 2weeks.


LOL


ScarletPhoenix
Tue Jun 01, 2004 4:40 am
#33

I almost hate to provide a bump to this odious thread, but the only thing that's ridiculous is the attitude that's being presented towards Image Designers. I've never been an ID or really known one in-game myself, but I read up on all the message boards just to get a sense of what's going on in the community, and the ID MB is hands down the most open and accepting out of all of them. The few that I've come into contact with in the game have all been eager to help out and interact socially.

Believe me when I say that no one goes into ID for the money and there's zero satisfaction earned from clicking through the migration menu. Yes, Rangers do have to sit in camps. It sucks. Going just through Scout camping was more than I ever wanted to do. However, they choose to do it for their own benefit. IDs are largely migrating your stats for your benefit (as noted, migration isn't the most efficient EXP, and nor is 10k a lot to make in 10 minutes of sitting around doing nothing, as opposed to, say, having fun in combat). Whoever's charging you 10k for 10 minutes of sitting around is a saint as far as I'm concerned. 10k is chump change, even at a sub-elite profession level, and it's for something that will last forever unless you want it changed again (and your stats really aren't something that need to be migrated very often).

Here's what you need to do if you "desperately" need to get an ID performed and you can find absolutely no ID willing to perform it for cheap, or free, for a newb (which is not a large possibility):

1) Make your way up to the third box of the combat profession fo your choice by hunting random thugs and such outside of your starting city, taking missions, etc. Fourth would be preferable, but third will work.

2) Find (or start) a hunting group. You will almost invariably find someone with composite and buffs that is willing to tank in a large game group. Go to the elite planet of your choice (I recommend Lok), have everyone take two missions in the same direction, and blaze a trail. Your stats and lack of armor won't matter if you let the better people tank, and even if you don't do much damage, you'll find yourself making the EXP and much, much more money than you put in for a ticket.

This is the hands-down easiest way to make it to whatever level of any profession you want without armor, without buffs, and without your stats mattering (and after one big-game group you can get your stats changed four or five times over at 10k a piece, minimum). Once you get box IV and enough money to get some cheap ubese and your first buff set, you're going to be a money generating powerhouse and costs shouldn't concern you for the rest of the game.

Anyway, the point of this long ramble was that there's no reason to come to the ID boards and flame. I lubbles my IDs!



- The Bothan
Syzygy-Gorath
Tue Jun 01, 2004 5:26 am
#34






Bravoda wrote:

Now in hindsight, judging by what I am seeing in the forums, 8k appears to be a very decent price. But at the time I couldn’t see why I would have to pay so much for something I used to be able to get for free where the only cost to the ID is time. It would take me a good 45 mins to an hour to raise those kinds of funds, and 1 hour versus 10 minutes doesn’t sound like a good trade off to me. I should also point out that there were no other customers in the tent at the time. If there were, I expect the ID would have tossed me out on my ear and served a non-bargaining, non-talkative customer that I know all you IDs love.


In a nutshell, my point is this: Don’t blindly charge a fixed rate based on what the top players are earning. Remember the in-between players who are just getting by and be reasonable about it. I probably wouldn’t have gotten annoyed with the ID above if she hadn’t threatened to jump the price to 10k. She might have just been roleplaying, but it did annoy me. Remember, you are not the only ones frustrated with the stat migration nerf.




And my point is this: by taking any less than 15K I'm operating at a loss—potentially a very big one. I don't mind occasionally helping other people, but to institutionalize a business practice that results in a loss? No thanks. I'll hunt Enraged Rancors instead.


You mentioned that the other players were forced into finding an image designer. This is true. However, there are far more "other players" than there are image designers. If it were a 1:1 or near 1:1 ratio where each ID only had to migrate a handful of stats over the span of a week I'd be more inclined to agree that lower prices were right—but there aren't that many of us. So now we're into an issue of supply and demand, coupled with the fact that we're providing a service that in general we don't want to. I see no problem with making it expensive so that folks make sure they get it right the first time.




œ Slone Varnillian œ Eicia Obai œ Panda-Sy œ
Most of the universe's problems can be solved by the application of a brick to the side of the right head.
The problem is if you don't have a big enough brick or can't find the right head. The devil is in the details.
œ Galena Varnillian œ Ammon œ Gwrtheyrn œ

Gyopi
Tue Jun 01, 2004 6:22 am
#35






Bravoda wrote:





Gyopi wrote:





Bravoda wrote:

Thats because they spent countless hours sitting in camps all day in order toget tomaster. I might also mention that apart from healing wounds and looking cool, camps are now redundant thanks to the ability to call pets and vehicles anywhere in 15 seconds, which pretty much wipes out the utility of an entire tree of the profession. An unintended effect, but one that impacts heavily on a profession that isalready in shreds.


Don't pick on rangers. They have suffered enough.


Believe me that I am not picking on rangers. I have a lot of respect for rangers and several ranger friends. I was answering the charge that sitting in camps to to become ranger is something that most rangers *stop* doing when they finish their survival XP. In other words, the really boring part goes away! For image designer, the boring part has *become* the job and that is not how it used to be. Rangers need help, but I am not talking about that at all.


The IDs that I have talked to in the game on two separate serversall say that the going rate is 10-15k, unless you are an obvious newbie, and that I should be thankful that they are not charging 50k (?!). This is the attitude I have a problem with and fail to see what is reasonable about it.


Most that *I* have met do not do that, but those are the going rates for stat migration. I refuse to do stat migration at all unless it is for people in my guild. Most of us don't want to do them and never asked to do them. If you come to me with *any* bad attitude at all you won't get any image design done from me because I get really tired of it very quickly. It seems almost as soon as I log on I get someone who says something like, "I have 5K. Change my stats now!". Those are the nice ones.


Point taken, although I would like to point out that it does cost the master doctor to perform buffs, not just time but credits. Plus they dont have a niftyUI dedicated to themselves to ensure they get paid after they perform the buffs.


So if it cost me for each stat migration I can then make a large profit? The fact is that even if he had to buy krayt pearls to do ID, people would *still* complain. The other fact is that I don't live in the tent. I live on Talus and it costs me 1K to go to the nearest tent to migrate everyone's stats so it *does* cost me something. Adding in the doctor's proifit, it should cost about 11K for a stat migration. If I take into account that doctor buffs are a lot faster to do, the rate would go way up from there!


As for Image designers being more reasonable than most people, outside of stat migration, I would generally degree. IDs tend to be "peoples people", in it more for the socialisation than any desire for reaping in the credits. That's why I think the IDs I have metare handling the stat migration servicethe wrong way. If they really valued their customers, they wouldn't charge ridiculous rates (50-60k), but what the customer could reasonably afford in recompense for the service performed. I like the idea of it being like a tip, rather than a set charge you demand, but thats my personal preference.


Because I have been in a hurry, I have done image design for tips for the past several sessions. So far I have made a grand total of 1000 credits. The sort of folks who run into the tents demanding stat migrations are not the sort that tip very well, I am afraid. I do much better when I stay at home (which is what I usually do, but some guild members needed stat migrations) and do regular image design along with selling clothes. The customers who are willing to travel to my boutique are a pleasure to work with and always end up tipping extra.
















Message Edited by Gyopi on 06-01-2004 09:29 AM




Momoko--Master Tailor near Kaadara on Lowca--
Come to Sitateya boutique at (5083 5804) on Naboo for elegant fashions, accessories, cute outfits, uniforms or any other clothing needs.
Eimi -- Master Bioengineer - Master Image Designer on Lowca--
Eimiko--Master Image Designer on TestCenter--

Danzen
Tue Jun 01, 2004 6:34 am
#36

I have been outspoken in my dislike for the changes to ID, I think SOE hurt the prof, but I dont hold it against anyone for making money as they can. SWG is a free market game, if they could charge 100k for migration and get it they probably would, if players did not pay 15k for migration, the base price you see would no doubt be lower. In the end the customer drives prices, if every ID got together and decided to charge 75k for migration, they might get it, for lack of cheaper competition, and if every customer thendecided to hang the migration and just get buffs, ID would be forced in the end to meet the shrinking market demand by lowering prices.
Sparticusx
Tue Jun 01, 2004 8:03 am
#37


This is rather ridiculous....


Yesterday I tried to get my stats migrated. The ID person kept LD'ing out. And never came back after a 15 minutes wait.


Today I find a master ID who wants 15k for 10 minutes work.


The whole of migrating stats is a royal pain now. You have no context for needing a person of ID to change your person's characteristics.


Even finding one of you online, has taken all day.


Flame me if you like. This game is getting worse and worse.


-----------------


I wrote the above when i was angry.... I spent most of 3 hours trying to find someone to migrate my stats only to have them LD out. Then trying the next day.


This actually was with a new character on a different server who had been transferred some items (I could not recreate the character without losing these items). I had no credits to speak of and could not wear the armorI had been given as a newbie on this server. With that in mind... I also had no way to make 15k credits in 10 minutes or even an hour (no skills with this character yet).


You guys can do a simple "Examine" and see that the character was new instead of asking for 15k. I made mistakes on my character migration screen and was simply trying to correct them. Yet when I tried to explain that to the second ID'er, he ran away as soon as I told him that I could not pay 15k.


I hear what you all are saying.... but everyone was new at one point or another. Take the seconds to do that Examine and you'll generate a lot more good will.... instead of the "I've got a new ability to generate money.... let's cash-in type of thing."


Most solo people cannot get 15k missions and have to work 30 minutes to an hour to accumulatethat kind of cash -- and it's even harder with a new character!


KeyTokikoMima
Tue Jun 01, 2004 12:20 pm
#38




Bravoda wrote:




First of all, you don’t have a monopoly on boring tasks. Have you tried sitting in camps for hours to grind wilderness XP? Or perhaps dancing in a cantina for hours to level up. Or perhaps crafting the same item over and over again just to get the XP. I am sure most of you have and would agree that these things rate fairly high on the boredometre.


Allthough this is true, the problem right now is that after you master you still get to do the same boring task! I don't know of any rangers who master and then sit in camps all day.


Thats because they spent countless hours sitting in camps all day in order toget tomaster. I might also mention that apart from healing wounds and looking cool, camps are now redundant thanks to the ability to call pets and vehicles anywhere in 15 seconds, which pretty much wipes out the utility of an entire tree of the profession. An unintended effect, but one that impacts heavily on a profession that isalready in shreds.


Don't pick on rangers. They have suffered enough.


Her point was that at the end of earning all the Wilderness Survival XP, you don't have to do it anymore. Image Designers have to wait 10 minutes EVERY time they use their abilities, and they have to do that in one of five places, usuallyin a crowded city. Rangers get to pick whatever spot they like, PLUS they have the option of crafting tents to speed up the process.


All of that is beside the point though.. at the end of all that camping, Rangers can instantly access their tents, and aren't forced to wait 10 minutes for them to appear. That was her point.


And Camps aren't useless: you can sit in them and heal wounds, completely avoiding spending 15 points on Novice Medic. Not that that's very useful, but I'm sure when the Revamp comes some day, a function will be added to Camps.. someday.


In a nutshell, my point is this: Don’t blindly charge a fixed rate based on what the top players are earning. Remember the in-between players who are just getting by and be reasonable about it. I probably wouldn’t have gotten annoyed with the ID above if she hadn’t threatened to jump the price to 10k. She might have just been roleplaying, but it did annoy me. Remember, you are not the only ones frustrated with the stat migration nerf.



I really don't know of anyone who does not make any acceptions for new players who can not make money easily. Most people are reasonable. Of course, most of us will want to tell any special deals in private because we don't want a giant crowd of people suddenly claiming that they are poor and need cheap stat migration.


The IDs that I have talked to in the game on two separate serversall say that the going rate is 10-15k, unless you are an obvious newbie, and that I should be thankful that they are not charging 50k (?!). This is the attitude I have a problem with and fail to see what is reasonable about it.


Well, I would pay the going rate if you want it. Just because everyone wants a set of Mandolorian armor, doesn't mean that people should charge less for it. Quite the opposite, in a capatalistic society, demand drives up the price. So it is very reasonable.


If they charge less for the less fortunate, then they will be expected to become the judges of who and who is not less fortunate. That costs time, and mental effort, whereas a blanket price for everyone is simple, and as fair as possible. It is alsomore efficient, whether the consumer likes it or not. And if they don't like it, they are welcome to try looking for someplace else to spend their credits.


That at it's heart is how capatialism works. Nothing is ever forced on the consumer.


By the way, after talking to some master doctors, a set of top quality doctor buffs costs about 2K per set. Just try going up to a random master doctor claiming you are poor and ask for a full set of buffs for 5K, or whatever. I don't think you will get a very good response. Image designers tend to be *more* reasonable than most people, not less.



Point taken, although I would like to point out that it does cost the master doctor to perform buffs, not just time but credits. Plus they dont have a niftyUI dedicated to themselves to ensure they get paid after they perform the buffs.


Which is why most doctors charge before the buffs, or recordyou if you don't pay, and post/send your nonpayment to fellow doctors. I wish their was a UI for Doctors to catch cheats, but that's not the fault of the Image Design Community.


And if their was a majority of doctors that charged only what it cost to make their buffs, I would agree with your first point. But the fact is that most doctors charge 5 or more times their costs, and can buff much faster than an ID can mitigate. It's not like it's a risk, either. Doctors WILL sell their buffs if they want to sell them. So the fact that there's an initial investment of resourses is cancelled out by the MASSIVE requirement of time it takes to make money as an ID, by a far measure.


As for Image designers being more reasonable than most people, outside of stat migration, I would generally degree. IDs tend to be "peoples people", in it more for the socialisation than any desire for reaping in the credits. That's why I think the IDs I have metare handling the stat migration servicethe wrong way. If they really valued their customers, they wouldn't charge ridiculous rates (50-60k), but what the customer could reasonably afford in recompense for the service performed. I like the idea of it being like a tip, rather than a set charge you demand, but thats my personal preference.


We(ID's) charge only what we think is fair. And price is set by and for_ourselves_ not at allfor our customers. For our customers sakes, we don't overcharge beyond a certain level... well, most don't. But thatis as much concernas I think a customer is entitled to.


People don't set prices becausethey care aboutthe customer,they set it becausethey care about themselves, andthey lower prices to entice customers to purchase from them.


If Doctors really cared aboutcustomers like you say, they would buff for free all the time. If Weaponsmiths cared abouttheir customersmore than making money, they would make their best weapons free to all. You see where this is going?


And as far as the socialization rewards: I can only say that 9 out of 10 of myStat-Mitigate-Only customers go AFK the moment the Stat Mitigation process has started. There is no socializing with them.If I set prices, I would definately be inclinedgive a discount for someone that was willing to be the 1 out of 10 Stat-Mitigate-Only person that actually talked to me, though.Maybe you can get a discount by offering that?







KeyTokikoMima
Tue Jun 01, 2004 1:18 pm
#39


The problem with giving price breaks to people who say they don't have enough credits is that there's an equal number of con-men and women as there are actual poor newbies. You can use all the /open, /examine and contact all the people you want. If someone wants to make you think they are poor, they can pull the rug over your eyes. Don't believe for a second they cannot!


Image Designers are not the FBI, or the IRS. We can't crack open a book or a computer system that tells us your net value. We can make certain assumptions, i.e. a person in a Novice Artisan dress with no badges and no other equipment might be a newbie, especially if they are asking about how to run missions, or other newbie knowledge. This does not make them a newbie for certain though. There is NO way to really tell.


We also aren't the Welfare Department, or Unemployment. Having no credits does not entitle you to Image Design discounts. Yes, you might tell a stirring story about how you are brand new and have no cash, and the ID might decide to cut you a break.. that's up to the ID in question. I certainly wouldn't look down on one that didn't help you for whatever reason. It's their time, and I'm not about to tell someone else how to spend their time.


Lastly, this is a game!! You don't *need* Stat Mitigation. Yes, it makes things easier, and yes sometimes your 80% composite won't fit right without it, but it's not like you'll starve, or die without having your stats moved how you like them.


I apologize to you for the trouble it takes to find a Novice Image Designer... I'm sure the community would be glad to help you find one, but I doubt it will be free to Stat Migrate, no matter what Image Designer you find.


Page 3 of 9