Game Guides Archive
Thread: Tuesday Tips May 24th Stopping Shot
EEMAN wrote:
lets reverse your scenario so that it closer matches my galaxy so that I can reply to your quest.
Lets say you forget you were SF and log into the game and hop a ride to theed because you need to go buy something from a vendor you frequent there. You zone right into the theed starport and materialize just outside where the same 26 SF imperial that stand there night after night every single night waiting on people to gank are hanging out. Suddenly the 9 dark jedi hit you with stasis and root attacks while the CMs and rifleman pound you with attacks, roots, poisons etc. You die because you were SF and wandered into a gank zone that has a history of being a gank zone (perhaps coronet on your galaxy has this reputation).
If I forgot I was SF and zoned there because I was careless... I deserve to die and will need to get a doc to cure my wounds. Now that I am on leave its likely one of those jedi would heal my wounds for me.
If I was actually trying to PVP and was stupid enough to zone into the starport instead of zoning into somewhere else and then shuttling over to a shuttleport further away from the gank zone I deserve to die.
If I was actually trying to PVP on a completely different planet and zoned into theed starport I still deserve to die because one can insta-travel to any planet (except kashyyk) from the ship terminals.
Even if it were 4 on 1 I expect to die and if they used root or some other tactic like snare would make no difference, a regular player would be dead. I would still be dead, may have taken 1 with me but it doesnt prevent me from being dead. Your theory about surprise ganking actually could apply to several jedi doing cloak aswell. You zone into a place and think you are in the clear when suddenly you get jumped by 6 cloaked jedi that root you and pound you to the floor.Message Edited by EEMAN on 05-27-2005 10:47 AM
Once again, you focus on symantics rather than the situation I referenced. Rather than address the issue of being perm-rooted, you point out petty details of my senario and bitterly turn the story around into a nasty outcry of "too many Jedi". Take your outrage elsewhere, becuase I specifically stated to take Jedi OUT of the equasion [sic]. I'm sure you were just trying to stress the way the situation would really be, but I was being hypethetical to illustrate a point. A point in which you deftly avoid: The Imp Pistoleer couldn't get away, even if they wanted to. Without root, under the old system, the Imp Pistoleer had the CHANCE of getting away.
On a side note, I too believe that there are too many visible Jedi. We play on the same server (been on Chalastra since 6-30-2003), and I know the situation there as well as you. Unless you catch me in the wild, you will never see a robe on me or a saber in my hand. I travel in plain clothes, unarmed, and without a title over my head. I use my alt frequently, sometimes playing entire sessions without ever logging my Jedi on (which was the intention of the DEVs when they implimented this system - Keep the "active" count down). While I am still a partial-template padawan, I feel that there is no need for me to reviel myself to the public reguardless of my level.. be it padawan, knight, or master. Me and my kind do not belong in this timeframe, and I will not make my presence known unless forced.
Not all Jedi are as self-centered as you would make us out to be. *I* don't care about being a PvP god. *I* never asked to rule the galaxy. All I want is a character that is SOMEWHAT CLOSE to what a cannon StarWars Jedi is supposed to be with-in the confines of this GAME. Many of us want a system put into place that would remove us from the GCW, and place us strictly as Light Jedi vs. Dark Jedi. The majority of those of us who are level-headed want a system that would prevent the Jedi you reference from doing the things you hate so much, keeping Jedi hidden (the "Blue-Glowy" proposal). The problem stems from the DEVs promise that EVERYBODY can be a Jedi and their seeming ingnorance to the situation at hand. This invites the issues you are so very keen to point out. Sadly, it would seem that they have their own agenda and we have to live with that.
1) Fix it(lower) so it works as intended, looking like big meanies, making players mad becuase they had something "taken away", even if it was something there were never suppose to have in the first place.
2) Leave the issue unresolved and play "stupid".
Example 1.
Recently a friend of mine logged onto to his Jedi character and said, "They changed Force Run". I said, "You mean they fixed it....awesome".
I didn't think about it at the time (not until I started reading this post). Noticed how he said "changed" while I said "fixed"...it may be subtle, but I think it really gives a deep look into the perception of "changes" made in SWG. If the Devs had made FR1 just .5 faster then a normal burst run and latter decided that it's not fast enough, they could take that speed, look it over and decide just how much faster they should change the speed. Then when the "new fix" is implemented most players that this issue effects will be "happy" to receive what was intended, rather then upset by havgin something "removed" (intended or otherwise). This SAME principal applies to pretty much anything in the game. Weapons damage, action cost, healing abilities, anything. SWG Devs like to take a gallon container and fill it up till overflowing, decide that's too much, then pour some out....it's just bad PR (IMO).
Example 2.0
They ignore the issues at hand.
XP grinding is horrible. I am actually scared to respec my last time for fear changes will be made to the profession I choose, and I will be forced to grind out XP for a new profession. When level 70 creatures give me 1 XP, I will be forced to drop the skill I want ot give up in order to drop my character level from 80 to maybe 70's or 60's....then, if I am still able to kill anything without taking 5 minutes a creature, I will get about 50 XP....whoopie! Grind in groups, I know, I know....why not. Jedi have Forced PvP, and we all have Forced group grinding....hooray!
Example 2.1
Many Jedi I fear are going to be very very very upset the day (if ever) the Devs finally decide to fix the Jedi TEF system for BHs. (If you don't know the issue, keep comments to yourself, it exist, it is real, and I'm not talking about a Jedi that doesn't attack back). The Devs are simply not giving any information about this issue...thus as a community memeber I can only assume one of 3 things:
a. They don't have a clue how to fix it
b. They KNOW how to fix it but don't consider it important enough to implement
c. They KNOW how to fix it, but don't want to offend the Jedi population, as this will effect them greatly.
With THs recent response, I feel they are acutely aware of most issues. Within a matter of days this community received word from TH directly, that the Stopping shot "issue" will, and needs to be addressed. From where did the "concern" originate from....the Jedi community. More importantly are the post SINCE TH made intentions public. I have read many well written responses "defending" stopping shots use, and a brilliant post about the blatant response differences from Devs based on a specific community asking for changes.
Has anyone bothered to respond to the greater request, questions, and comments of the non-Jedi community? No.
15 people talking to TH at one time....from the back of the room 3 other voices can barely be heard.....ignoring everyone else, TH walks through the crowd of 15 people directly to the "other 3" and ask, "What is your problem?". The crowd is silenced while listening to the "other 3" tell TH of "outstanding" odds and circumstances, asking for change. The crowd startes talking to TH again debunking the recently made request, begging for attention in other areas. TH looks to the "other 3" and says, "Your right, we will look into that right away for changes".
Intended or not TH, this is how you are perceived....and that is a sad thing indeed.
Message Edited by Tucheck on 05-27-2005 01:04 PM
Tucheck wrote:
*SNIP*
Very well said. The biggest problem is that this very situation makes it look as though it is the Jedi's fault, rather than the DEVs communication inconsistancies/failures. Too many people lay blame SPECIFICALLY on Jedi for things outside of their control, and this breeds hate towards the class.
EX: We Jedi did not impliment Holo-grinding, yet are hated for it. The PLAYERS who are Jedi, are blamed for ruining the game just because there were/are players who want to play as a Jedi.
/Agree
Tucheck wrote:
Has anyone bothered to respond to the greater request, questions, and comments of the non-Jedi community? No.
15 people talking to TH at one time....from the back of the room 3 other voices can barely be heard.....ignoring everyone else, TH walks through the crowd of 15 people directly to the "other 3" and ask, "What is your problem?". The crowd is silenced while listening to the "other 3" tell TH of "outstanding" odds and circumstances, asking for change. The crowd startes talking to TH again debunking the recently made request, begging for attention in other areas. TH looks to the "other 3" and says, "Your right, we will look into that right away for changes".
Intended or not TH, this is how you are perceived....and that is a sad thing indeed.
Message Edited by Tucheck on 05-27-2005 01:04 PM
Ka-oan wrote:
Once again, you focus on symantics rather than the situation I referenced. Rather than address the issue of being perm-rooted, you point out petty details of my senario and bitterly turn the story around into a nasty outcry of "too many Jedi". Take your outrage elsewhere, becuase I specifically stated to take Jedi OUT of the equasion [sic]. I'm sure you were just trying to stress the way the situation would really be, but I was being hypethetical to illustrate a point. A point in which you deftly avoid: The Imp Pistoleer couldn't get away, even if they wanted to. Without root, under the old system, the Imp Pistoleer had the CHANCE of getting away.
On a side note, I too believe that there are too many visible Jedi. We play on the same server (been on Chalastra since 6-30-2003), and I know the situation there as well as you. Unless you catch me in the wild, you will never see a robe on me or a saber in my hand. I travel in plain clothes, unarmed, and without a title over my head. I use my alt frequently, sometimes playing entire sessions without ever logging my Jedi on (which was the intention of the DEVs when they implimented this system - Keep the "active" count down). While I am still a partial-template padawan, I feel that there is no need for me to reviel myself to the public reguardless of my level.. be it padawan, knight, or master. Me and my kind do not belong in this timeframe, and I will not make my presence known unless forced.
Not all Jedi are as self-centered as you would make us out to be. *I* don't care about being a PvP god. *I* never asked to rule the galaxy. All I want is a character that is SOMEWHAT CLOSE to what a cannon StarWars Jedi is supposed to be with-in the confines of this GAME. Many of us want a system put into place that would remove us from the GCW, and place us strictly as Light Jedi vs. Dark Jedi. The majority of those of us who are level-headed want a system that would prevent the Jedi you reference from doing the things you hate so much, keeping Jedi hidden (the "Blue-Glowy" proposal). The problem stems from the DEVs promise that EVERYBODY can be a Jedi and their seeming ingnorance to the situation at hand. This invites the issues you are so very keen to point out. Sadly, it would seem that they have their own agenda and we have to live with that.
everything I posted explains your rooted pistoleer quite well actually. Even if they took roots away (which i hope if they did they rebalance EVERYTHING since TH flatly said all high end content was made to require rooting or a MDefender and I dont want to have to take a jedi everywhere i go) zoning into a region that is gank-centric, be it theed, coronet, etc. You are prettymuch dead if you zone right in the middle of it instead of going to a shuttle and comming in on the flank. It happened before root w/ CM's doing thier think, it happens w/ jedi and honestly it doesnt bother me. I dont know why, it just seems in a tactical situation its not a good place to land. Now if you were comming in on a flank and were getting owned like that sure, but if theres more than just you I just cant see everyone deciding to root you and not the rest of your group. Then again maybe you are comming from a different perspective. The imps on our galaxy (atleast the ones I used to talk to that were ok like joebane and those IFC guys) were much more coordinated when it came to focused attacks in pvp. Every pvp I have been involved in has always been utter chaos with no sense of command structure and everyone seemed to do thier own thing. When I did get killed by IFC it was a concerted effort. But that was all pre-cu days I havent seen joebane on in eons but he did love that jawa ion rifle he bought off me that did nearly 400 max damage at the time.
This is primarily directed at EEMAN (Omosack, on Chilastra) and the anti-Jedi posts (Re: Tuesday Tips May 24th - Stopping Shot)
You make valid, if angry, points. I wholeheartedly agree there are too many Jedi that are treated like elitists and spoiled children. There are too many Jedi whiners (aka powergamers) that post OFTEN that they aren’t powerful enough or that something that works against them should be nerfed. Most of the Jedi who routinely post won’t even get halfway though this post before they flame it. There is no way, in any form, that Jedi should be allowed to just show-off in front of starports, or be allowed to just run around with sabers in hand, completely ignoring the visibility system. They are the reason there is a visibility system in the first place. This is why I became a BH, to hunt down crackhead Jedi on 3 different servers, and rid the galaxy of there presence.
Now, with that said – there is no way, after grinding tens of million of xp should ANYONE loose all of that. If you didn’t know, grinding isn’t fun, its work. But if your goal is to become a Jedi Knight, then you have to grind. In the time period between Ep 4 and 5 there shouldn’t be Jedi running around publicly, like the movies… then again, we try not to bring up the movies in the forums too much because we all know a movie level Jedi would unbalance the game in ways even SOE hasn’t dreamed up. And if one more whiny (aka powergamer) BH come on complaining that ‘Jango took on Obi’ I suggest they watch the movie again.
But, I digress from my point here.
Jedi are powerful, and an iconic part of Star Wars. The entire saga was written around Jedi. Almost every person who picks up the game box wants to play there favorite Jedi or make there own saga around there Jedi. When you go to a store, and see SW toys, there’s a lightsaber on the box/cardboard or a picture of a Jedi. And all the recent films that have brought all these kids into this game are focused on Jedi. No offense, anyone below 30 is a kid to me, and most of these kids didn’t have dreams of becoming Han, they want to be Anakin or Maul – the excessive obsidian skin/red tat Zabrak population should show u that. Additionally, considering the sheer number of aliens in the SW universe, why do you think they included Zabrak in the first place? The Gungan’s have made more appearances than Zab’s.
Right now, Jedi are the only profession that has to loot there weapons, that’s forced into PvP, loose xp if they die in that forced PvP encounter and cannot group or participate with friends when they are grinding. Currently, if you’re a padawan, to get xp solo you have to drop your previous professions to get to a level low enough to use the sad excuse for a lightsaber. Or you just group up anyway and soak up the vis. BTW, the 3 million a column at 100-900 xp a kill isn’t fun. And to loose 100k+ because several lvl 80 respec-BH decide it’s your time to entertain them tonight for 50k isn’t exactly fun game play or balance. But it is the paddy’s fault for getting the vis in the first place, guess he should have just logged out for 3 weeks.
The game shouldn’t be tailored to the Jedi players. If a particularly inventive hunter catches a Jedi with a new trick, then that Jedi gets a surprise and the BH get paid. My personal favorite is the Jedi who whined that last ditch should get nerfed because a BH used it on him. I say cheers to the BH who took his precious skill points to go up smuggler for 1 special. I have personally run to a BH term to take a mission on any and every Jedi I see in the MO walking around with saber in hand at any level. And I have lost a few and won a few. But hopefully the message was sent that they will be attacked if they ignore they system, and I encourage every BH to do the same. After all, you don’t loose anything if you die.
The solution to the problem? It was suggested a long, long time ago, on forums that the Dev’s don’t read. There is absolutely no motivation for anyone to not become a Jedi. Currently, Jedi is seen as the ‘endgame’ feature in SWG. The additional character slot should be given to accounts that make there char non-eligible for Jedi. If they later decide they want a Jedi, just get another account. NPC’s should spawn (like the crackdown) on every Jedi who publicly displays there abilities, or gains a certain number of vis points on a 5 min timer. Whip your lightsaber out in Theed or to show your buddies your kewl l337 abilities? You have 5 minutes to get out of there before the Empire’s elite show up to rid you from the galaxy and keep your existence a rumor. There should be Inquisitors (dark Jedi in the service of the Emperor) to hunt down the more powerful Jedi that even 5 BH or Nova’s can’t reasonably take on. And Jedi should loose something from these deaths – and so should BH’s when they die so they don’t take the hunt lightly. Jedi should have a means to participate with friends on hunts (no group vis OR NPC vis) and be able to participate in game content – this is a GAME after all, give us options not restrictions. If a Jedi wated the Jedi starfighter, how are they supposed to get it without getting vis? It cant be used without doing the mission, and the mission is in front of the starport.
Lastly, they SHOULD be powerful – with a lightsaber that can strike down a MBH (see Jango Fett) or take on an Acklay. With powers that not only keep them out of fights (Jedi mind trick) or can instantly stop one (Vader disarming Han in ESB or a force run that moves like EP I burst of speed). Not only can they deflect blasters, the can redirect them back at you (see Jango Fett – please note the effectiveness of his pistols on a charging Jedi). You would be a fool to attack a fully trained Jedi with a lightsaber – the only reasonable thing a Jedi could fight is a Jedi/Dark Jedi. Jedi don’t heal 1500 every second, have force fields or weaken an opponents abilites/defenses – they charge in with a unyielding lightsaber that kills/maims/cuts anything and everything it hits except another lightsaber (or force fields, but thats another post). Unbalancing? Yeah, a little. Is it Star Wars? Yes, very much so.
P.S. If SOE really wanted to play SW with Jedi, there would be a dark side and light side, not forced factions for Jedi. Take a note from KOTOR and implement.
EEMAN wrote:
Thunderheart it is clear by this and many other threads just how deep this jedi vs non-jedi animosity runs. The jedi OFTEN refer to non jedi as 'laymen', 'laypersons', 'mundanes', 'interactive NPC' and so on and so forth. They somehow have arrived at this sense of self entitlement that is evident in EVERYTHING they do and post. Everyhing should be given to them because they spent 6 months grinding. Wow, I have been playing this game since early beta. I have ground professions when some of these new players were still potty training. Every day I spend on average 30-60 minutes just filling out bug reports. I have been accepted to every Beta test and during those phases commited 3-4 hours a day finding and reporting bugs comming up with every way to break something I can think of. That kind of 'work' clearly is much much MUCH greater than the kind of 'work' some jedi spends playing a game and yet I have no special 'I win' button that makes these jedi fall over dead when they come within 30m of me. I dont fill the forums with page after page requesting you elevate everything specific to me and all the while bring down everyone around me.
This arguement of work involved shouldnt get even a minuscule bit of consideration. The hard grind is there to make them rare, not make them elite. It could take 2 years and they be no more powerful than a regular player and the long grind is STILL justified becaues it exists for the sole purpose of making jedi rare. Now previously I explained that better ways exist to make jedi rare, but currently this is the only one and you keep reducing this 'penalty' which makes jedi less and less rare. First there was a hard grind, an unknown way to become jedi, and permadeath. Then it was a known way to grind, permadeath and a long grind. Then its a known system and a long grind but 3 deaths within 2 weeks for permadeath to take affect. Then its a known long grind and you lose a skill box every time you die. Then its an XP loss on death and a known grind. Then its revamped so they get their own nondefendable damage type by the majority of us 'mundane' not to mention the entire PVE arena, a quest and a long grind with XP loss. Then we get a CU which brings them from 8x more powerful than any other profession in the game to just 1.5x more powerful (if you cant do the math dont bother replying). Then they removed XP loss on PVE death. Then they removed XP loss on PVP death that isnt from a bounty hunter.
They fear NOTHING and flaunt their robes and their sabers everywhere. They force meditate and channel force in cantinas. They pvp in front of starports. Now they are actively campaigning to systematically get every SINGLE special nerfed that has a chance of taking them down because 'afterall I'm a Jedi and mundanes shouldnt be able to kill me because they are just stupid mundanes'. I even had a Jedi on Chilastra named -Ultra send a email to a guildie once about how he owned the geo cave and it was his right to prevent anyone else from grinding there because SOE has elevated him to the status of GOD and GOD has decree'd that noone else is allowed in there. They pick and they pick and they chisel and they weasel every SINGLE change one at a time. They will never be happy until you finally change it to a ingame form that one submits requesting jedi and upon aproval (which is mandated all forms are automatically approved) they get to type /firstspec on their next login and just choose the boxes in jedi they would like to have. Mark my words, next they will start demanding the XP requirements of each box be lowered if they havent already.
Nearly all of the rest of us 'peons/laypeople/mundanes' are so sick of the jedi and their Holier than Thou attitude, you can almost feel the hate dripping off the walls. If you run astromech stats on the respec I bet will find an overwhelming amout of players that took up BH just because they are so sick of Jedi. They give nothing to the community, they have been made entirely self sufficent. They need no clothing. They need no weapons. They need no armor. They usually dont even need docs to heal their wounds. I and many others in my guild and on servers across all galaxy want to know one simple thing, we have one meager request:
Can you PLEASE create a galaxy cluster for us and make it a NO JEDI galaxy?!
/bravo;
I think I may cry.
The fundamental problem with Jedi in this game is and has always been the amount of time needed to aquire one. Players invest all of that time just to unlock a padawan...they want the "power" that they believe such a long grin to be worth.
As for keeping them rare....they aren't anymore. Nothing. I repeat...NOTHING will change that unless SOE os going to start deleting active jedi accounts and terminate the village and the unlocking system. We all know that will NEVER happen.
Players DO play this game for a Jedi. Some may not, but many do. I personally wanted to be a regular joe, but as I play the game now I see where the game is going. It's going to be Kotor online...which I do think is good. The devs just need to embrace it instead of attempting to "ride the fence" on the large issue of jedi involvement in pve, pvp and such.
To me, jedi should be no more or less powerful than any other 2.5 combat template. However, there should be TONS more content for a Jedi as well as no xp on any kind of death. Let's face it, jedi will never be going back under the rug like they once were. Nothing we do will change that. And SOE won't be foolish enough to cut the jedi out to appease what seems to be the minority.
No jedi player should have an "I win" button.
No player should have to bring 10 friends with them just to take down one knight.
No player should loose xp on death.
No profession should be more or less powerful than another.
All professions should be balanced.
This is hilarious. If the whole argument is BH gank squads on Jedi, I suggest you see the freakin movie!!(Ep. III). The Jedi got slaughtered by, Cloned Bounty Hunter Gank squads!! Unbelievable that Jedi can be up to or even over 3 times as powerful as other players, and have to be killed by multiple opponents, and they are still in here crying cause it takes 3 to 5 bounty hunters to kill them so SOE should nerf their one viable Jedi fighting ability all to hell!! ROFLMAO
Perhaps the only viable solution is to disallow BH from using any Root abilities whatsoever. And now that I think of it, Torso shot may cause a discomforting bleed....... better nerf that too.... and critical shot, that just sounds bad..... NERF BAT PLEASE!!!
Hell, lets just all quit. I am close to being Jedi anyway.... I would hate to think I'd get there knowing I was going to be hunted and possibly killed. Better quit while I'm ahead.
Am I being cynical, yes. But to make a point. There have been some very valid arguments and resolutions placed here. But, can't this stuff be conversed on without name calling and calling for people to get fired??
I agree that 5 on one bounties may seem unfair, but if you look at it that way, unfair too is Solo BH versus Jedi Knight. That is why we have a choice of how to play. If you don't like a fight or getting killed, be an artisan or entertainer and you can still have fun. Jedi get alts, do something funner with them if Jedi has lost its luster. At the end of the day this is still just a game and if we talked sensibly and with tact to the Devs they may respond a whole lot quicker and with more patience than with the crap I spewed at the start of this post.
Just my two cents...
Message Edited by Dookseid on 05-28-2005 03:06 AM
Eh, I don't think Stopping Shot will be nerfed per se. I think they will just add a 30 second timer to the target, much like any knockdown attack. Meaning no other Pistoleer will be able to root a target that has recently been rooted until 30 seconds after the last root. That makes the most sense to me and is how it is supposed to work now but doesn't.
O-Boo-1 wrote:
All I can say is that is root ability gets nerfed then it needs to be compensated with at least one serious damage dealing ability shot with a low cool down.
how about telling me why my last respec was jacked.. i never recieved a msg indicating it was my last one and also i lost a respec on your pub 17 fiasco that took almost 28 hours! when will i get my skills back?
Thunderheart wrote:
thecolonelcardaks wrote:
I dont mean to be rude TH, but do you guys play this game?There is no timer whatsoever on the target. The timer is just literally on the specials, so 4 pistoleers can keep a target rooted ad infininitum. unless i am wrong...
Sure we do. A bunch of us play and some of us play a lot. To answer your question, currently, there is a problem with the timer and it is being looked at now. I'm sorry if I hadn't made that clearer.
Hmmm... I don't know about the other servers but on Eclipse, Stopping Shot doesn't work most of the time, at least in PvE.
Example; I'm fighting gurks on Lok, pull with a rifle, switch to pistol <Stopping Shot> at 35m. The gurk (a melee attacker) proceeds to pound the crap out of me from 35m away. After finally killing him he slides up to my feet (on his face, of course). I know that the "root" is working, all of the lag causing graphics and little icons are there, but it isn't working. It just makes the MOBs graphic stop where they were rooted, but they are still right in front of me! This is a repeatablescenario 95% of the time.
Maybe my character is bugged, but I'm not seeing all of this wonderful ability in "stopping shot".
Regarding the Jedi issue, when Jediis powerful enough tosit in the open, in groups, light sabers flashing, in the middle of a city, there is something definitely WRONG. The Jedi shouldn't be powerful enough to REQUIRE 2-3 BH's to take them down. A CL80 versus CL80 anything should be an EVEN match. I warned a Paddy about being on the BH terms, his reply " let them come, I just killed 3 of them today", this was a Paddy, not Master! and that was before the "get out of DB free card (the DB timers)"
I remember a time before Jedi were added (hell before there were mounts), life was a whole lot more peaceful!!!