Game Guides Archive
Thread: Tuesday Tips May 24th Stopping Shot
Nice Post Eeman!
I would like to know what the percentages of jedi to " normal " players are. I'm betting close to 25% and climbing. Do the developers have a plan for when the amount of jedi gets over 50%?
What if nobody wants to be a bounty hunter eventually? I know I'd get bored of the whole thing rather quickly. I'd rather kill krayt..they whine less.
Sjayde wrote:
This is primarily directed at EEMAN (Omosack, on Chilastra) and the anti-Jedi posts (Re: Tuesday Tips May 24th - Stopping Shot)
You make valid, if angry, points. I wholeheartedly agree there are too many Jedi that are treated like elitists and spoiled children. There are too many Jedi whiners (aka powergamers) that post OFTEN that they aren’t powerful enough or that something that works against them should be nerfed. Most of the Jedi who routinely post won’t even get halfway though this post before they flame it. There is no way, in any form, that Jedi should be allowed to just show-off in front of starports, or be allowed to just run around with sabers in hand, completely ignoring the visibility system. They are the reason there is a visibility system in the first place. This is why I became a BH, to hunt down crackhead Jedi on 3 different servers, and rid the galaxy of there presence.
Now, with that said – there is no way, after grinding tens of million of xp should ANYONE loose all of that. If you didn’t know, grinding isn’t fun, its work. But if your goal is to become a Jedi Knight, then you have to grind. In the time period between Ep 4 and 5 there shouldn’t be Jedi running around publicly, like the movies… then again, we try not to bring up the movies in the forums too much because we all know a movie level Jedi would unbalance the game in ways even SOE hasn’t dreamed up. And if one more whiny (aka powergamer) BH come on complaining that ‘Jango took on Obi’ I suggest they watch the movie again.
But, I digress from my point here.
Jedi are powerful, and an iconic part of Star Wars. The entire saga was written around Jedi. Almost every person who picks up the game box wants to play there favorite Jedi or make there own saga around there Jedi. When you go to a store, and see SW toys, there’s a lightsaber on the box/cardboard or a picture of a Jedi. And all the recent films that have brought all these kids into this game are focused on Jedi. No offense, anyone below 30 is a kid to me, and most of these kids didn’t have dreams of becoming Han, they want to be Anakin or Maul – the excessive obsidian skin/red tat Zabrak population should show u that. Additionally, considering the sheer number of aliens in the SW universe, why do you think they included Zabrak in the first place? The Gungan’s have made more appearances than Zab’s.
Right now, Jedi are the only profession that has to loot there weapons, that’s forced into PvP, loose xp if they die in that forced PvP encounter and cannot group or participate with friends when they are grinding. Currently, if you’re a padawan, to get xp solo you have to drop your previous professions to get to a level low enough to use the sad excuse for a lightsaber. Or you just group up anyway and soak up the vis. BTW, the 3 million a column at 100-900 xp a kill isn’t fun. And to loose 100k+ because several lvl 80 respec-BH decide it’s your time to entertain them tonight for 50k isn’t exactly fun game play or balance. But it is the paddy’s fault for getting the vis in the first place, guess he should have just logged out for 3 weeks.
The game shouldn’t be tailored to the Jedi players. If a particularly inventive hunter catches a Jedi with a new trick, then that Jedi gets a surprise and the BH get paid. My personal favorite is the Jedi who whined that last ditch should get nerfed because a BH used it on him. I say cheers to the BH who took his precious skill points to go up smuggler for 1 special. I have personally run to a BH term to take a mission on any and every Jedi I see in the MO walking around with saber in hand at any level. And I have lost a few and won a few. But hopefully the message was sent that they will be attacked if they ignore they system, and I encourage every BH to do the same. After all, you don’t loose anything if you die.
The solution to the problem? It was suggested a long, long time ago, on forums that the Dev’s don’t read. There is absolutely no motivation for anyone to not become a Jedi. Currently, Jedi is seen as the ‘endgame’ feature in SWG. The additional character slot should be given to accounts that make there char non-eligible for Jedi. If they later decide they want a Jedi, just get another account. NPC’s should spawn (like the crackdown) on every Jedi who publicly displays there abilities, or gains a certain number of vis points on a 5 min timer. Whip your lightsaber out in Theed or to show your buddies your kewl l337 abilities? You have 5 minutes to get out of there before the Empire’s elite show up to rid you from the galaxy and keep your existence a rumor. There should be Inquisitors (dark Jedi in the service of the Emperor) to hunt down the more powerful Jedi that even 5 BH or Nova’s can’t reasonably take on. And Jedi should loose something from these deaths – and so should BH’s when they die so they don’t take the hunt lightly. Jedi should have a means to participate with friends on hunts (no group vis OR NPC vis) and be able to participate in game content – this is a GAME after all, give us options not restrictions. If a Jedi wated the Jedi starfighter, how are they supposed to get it without getting vis? It cant be used without doing the mission, and the mission is in front of the starport.
Lastly, they SHOULD be powerful – with a lightsaber that can strike down a MBH (see Jango Fett) or take on an Acklay. With powers that not only keep them out of fights (Jedi mind trick) or can instantly stop one (Vader disarming Han in ESB or a force run that moves like EP I burst of speed). Not only can they deflect blasters, the can redirect them back at you (see Jango Fett – please note the effectiveness of his pistols on a charging Jedi). You would be a fool to attack a fully trained Jedi with a lightsaber – the only reasonable thing a Jedi could fight is a Jedi/Dark Jedi. Jedi don’t heal 1500 every second, have force fields or weaken an opponents abilites/defenses – they charge in with a unyielding lightsaber that kills/maims/cuts anything and everything it hits except another lightsaber (or force fields, but thats another post). Unbalancing? Yeah, a little. Is it Star Wars? Yes, very much so.
P.S. If SOE really wanted to play SW with Jedi, there would be a dark side and light side, not forced factions for Jedi. Take a note from KOTOR and implement.
DAAAAAAMN! Sjayde!
That has got to be the best post I have ever seen on these forums in the 2+ years I have been reading them!
Kudos.
One-of-Fourteen wrote:
Sounds like someone else is jealous that they don't have a jedi to play with, lol! Your suggestion would be OK if all characters risked perma death. It's only a game, lol! Lighten up, will you?
Just because I haven't been trying for jedi doesn't mean I haven't put in as much or more work then a jedi. I did professions in the old system, not to get a jedi but because I wanted try the profession. I've got more then 6 unlocks in the new system, not because I wanted jedi but because I wanted the quest rewards. I've leveled more then 24 FS boxes and dropped more then 10 of them not because I wanted a jedi but wanted to try the skills found the bonuses not what I wanted or useful. I've rode away from the village and capped my xp in a couple of hours then went around for weeks not bothering to go drop it off because I really don't care to play a jedi. The only reason I've even considered going for jedi is for the second slot but I don't do it because I don't want to lock my a character into 24 mostly useless FS boxes.
Despite all this for the last 8 months anytime I wanted go PvP it always ended the same way. Block block block miss block deverish cloner. When I hear jedi's complain about root and not being able to do anything the mean side of wants to say "Well now you know what ranged PvP was like pre cu. Not fun is it."
I tried everything possible to make ranged work against jedi from accuracy staking to sliced LS PSG's in a ADK. Now the CU comes along and ranged can actually do something useful in PvP again and it's just been a constant stream of calls to nerf ranged back to stone age.
Now do I actually think Jedi should have perm death? NO. Why did I say that? Well because if your going to use the movies to argue for a nerf to a ranged profession I'm going to say, "Movies huh? Well according to the movies there shouldn't be jedis right now." Evidence from the movies supports that a lot more then it supports jedi’s being un-pin able from ranged fire.
But as you said this is a game. But games need some balance. Power needs some check. While I agree jedi should be more powerful they shouldn’t be unstoppable. I even think the stated goal of a full template jedi = 1.5 full template combatants is a little low. That means two good bh’s should always kill a knight. The problem now is the jedi profession is so out of whack that full template jedi can equal anything from 0.25 to 6 regular combatants. Now if your one of those templates that is a helluva lot more powerful then 1.5 to 1 and your making noise because the only thing that can kill you is root, here is what I have to say "Well now you know what ranged PvP was like pre cu. Not fun is it."
If you’re leveling or have one of the weaker templates and got your ass handed to you from this tactic and came her yelling for nerfs in temporary fit of anger then ya, it needs to be balanced in some way as well as a lot of other things.
I personally don't think we'll ever see any true balance in this game until jedi are unable to attack any non jedi regardless of faction. The only exception for this would be to punish jedi that blatantly show off their jedi abilities. Jedi should be segregated from non jedi as much as possible. The GCW and PvP would be fun if Jedi didn't ruin it for everyone but themselves. Its a sad state of affairs when the GCW is fought against Jedi and Dark Jedi rather than non jedi vs non jedi. It would be much better for the game if Jedi could only fight other jedi or PvE and not participate in the GCW at all. If they want to participate in GCW they could do it in space as a neutral pilot or on one of their alts. After all Jedi aren't supposed to be in this time period at all...or if you buy the alternate reality that soe is using they're supposed to be in hiding...if they are discovered then they are hunted.
Let us "mundanes", as you jedi call us, PvP amongst ourselves without your overpowered abilities ruining our PvP fun. Jedi should fight only other Jedi....this is NOT KOTOR online. The only time jedi should be able to fight "mundanes" is when Bounty Hunters come to collect your bounty and attack you first. This would only occur of course if Jedi showed off their abilities to non jedi...or was seen fighting by non jedi. If you want to play as a Jedi in this alternate reality the devs have concocted then all Jedi must follow the rules and stay in hiding.
Jedi should be able to group with other jedi or padawans or fight amongst each other and not create any visibility. I don't even care if you hunt NPCs but GCWBases should be off limits to attack. Jedi Knights and Dark Jedi Knights should have their own "factions" seperate from rebel and imperial and these factions would only serve to facilitate jedi vs dark jedi fighting amongst themselves and leave padawans safe from being hunted by other jedi. If the system was set up properly non jedi would never see any jedi at all....but if they do the jedi that was seen should be punished by being hunted down and killed by all the bounty hunters on the server until the jedi was killed enough to reduce their visibility to zero. The punishment from dieing from a "mundane" bounty hunter would of course increase depending on how strong the jedi is that showed off. For young padawans a slight slap of the wrist maybe like one death then any other bounty hunter missions on that jedi would be failed and the young Padawan's visibility reduced to zero. For a Jedi Knight or Dark Jedi Knight their FRS ranking would be reduced or their ranking on the council would be reduced for being a rogue jedi knight. Arrogance from all Jedi must be punished and no jedi should think they are above the law.
With the creation of instances on Kashyyk this brings about a possibile way of allowing jedi to participate in PvE content in some dungeons without threat of visibility and without jedi stealing all the content from non jedi. What I mean by this is the creation of Jedi only instances of certain areas that only jedi can access.
The reason I'm suggesting all of this is because I'm sick and tired of Jedi trying to nerf any and all fun from this game simply because they feel they earned the right to be "uber" GODS that no one is supposed to kill. Its getting to the point now that inorder to have any fun in this game you have to be jedi or you won't be able to take part in any of the higher level content at all. For us "mundanes" that prefer not to become the spoiled children that most jedi are, PvP is supposed to be our "end game". From what PvPI participated in during cu testing it was fun...why was it fun? No jedi to gank you when you're Special Forces. Few people can go special forces in game without being ganked by jedi wanting some quick easy kills to boost their FRS ranking...or they simply gank you because they can. Those "mundanes" that do go special forces only do so when they are in a large group of special forces or with jedi friends of their own. As more and more people are forced to go Jedi to get any decent content from this game the problem will not get better it will get worse...unless something is done soon.
Message Edited by Graxul on 05-27-2005 06:36 AM
Sjayde wrote:
This is primarily directed at EEMAN (Omosack, on Chilastra) and the anti-Jedi posts (Re: Tuesday Tips May 24th - Stopping Shot)
several valid points but truncated for space...
couple things here. Jango almost did take out Obi Wan and if you read your lore Obi Wan is one of the best saber duelist of all time. Any other master would have died at his hands. In Ep3 you saw several masters die at the hand of 5 clones which does give support that a 5v1 fight should prettymuch equal death for the jedi. Its very important that you understand why it was Mace Windu that cut off Jango's head in Ep2. Mace Windu is the absolute best duelist there has ever been among the Jedi. Not even anakin could have been a match for the emperor and yoda conceded that he couldnt take on the emperor alone. The whole 'im weak' part was clearly a ruse but up until disarmament it was a real battle. I dissaprove how people talk about Mace Windu's decapitation of Jengo so nonchalantly as if Mace was just some run of the mill Jedi. So Jedi, while powerful, are no where near the expectations that everyone has, otherwise even the masters would not have been 'punked' so easily in episode 3. They illustrate the talents of those in the movies that would equate to the very top tier of the entire FRS system and expect padawan to perform at that level.
But my main point is this, if you read my posts, all of them, you will see that nowhere am I calling for more reductions of the jedi other than removing healing as a tradeoff for more DPS. That is because many only look at their DPS as a measure of damage and not time itself. I, personally, would much preferr an attack of 800 and the ability to deal that damage for 34minutes (a value another jedi gave in this same thread) rather than doing an attack of 1500 and only getting 1 stim of 1200 every 60 seconds. Many do not understand how this healing enables for them them, an enormous amount of power. Many of my posts are quite clear, I wont accept the Jedi forums calling for more nerfs to elevate them further and most importantly I am so tired of how they are ruining the game I would just like a server I can play on that is free of them. The last request affects them in no way what so ever. Despite the fact that affects no current jedi I get hate mail because aparently its believed that if such a system went into place they would have noone left to annoy or crap talk except other jedi.
My requests are much more reasonable than the ones comming from the other side of the table (that of nerfing any profession that might be able to hold their own against them 2 on 1).
EEMAN wrote:
Thunderheart it is clear by this and many other threads just how deep this jedi vs non-jedi animosity runs. The jedi OFTEN refer to non jedi as 'laymen', 'laypersons', 'mundanes', 'interactive NPC' and so on and so forth. They somehow have arrived at this sense of self entitlement that is evident in EVERYTHING they do and post. Everyhing should be given to them because they spent 6 months grinding. Wow, I have been playing this game since early beta. I have ground professions when some of these new players were still potty training. Every day I spend on average 30-60 minutes just filling out bug reports. I have been accepted to every Beta test and during those phases commited 3-4 hours a day finding and reporting bugs comming up with every way to break something I can think of. That kind of 'work' clearly is much much MUCH greater than the kind of 'work' some jedi spends playing a game and yet I have no special 'I win' button that makes these jedi fall over dead when they come within 30m of me. I dont fill the forums with page after page requesting you elevate everything specific to me and all the while bring down everyone around me.
This arguement of work involved shouldnt get even a minuscule bit of consideration. The hard grind is there to make them rare, not make them elite. It could take 2 years and they be no more powerful than a regular player and the long grind is STILL justified becaues it exists for the sole purpose of making jedi rare. Now previously I explained that better ways exist to make jedi rare, but currently this is the only one and you keep reducing this 'penalty' which makes jedi less and less rare. First there was a hard grind, an unknown way to become jedi, and permadeath. Then it was a known way to grind, permadeath and a long grind. Then its a known system and a long grind but 3 deaths within 2 weeks for permadeath to take affect. Then its a known long grind and you lose a skill box every time you die. Then its an XP loss on death and a known grind. Then its revamped so they get their own nondefendable damage type by the majority of us 'mundane' not to mention the entire PVE arena, a quest and a long grind with XP loss. Then we get a CU which brings them from 8x more powerful than any other profession in the game to just 1.5x more powerful (if you cant do the math dont bother replying). Then they removed XP loss on PVE death. Then they removed XP loss on PVP death that isnt from a bounty hunter.
They fear NOTHING and flaunt their robes and their sabers everywhere. They force meditate and channel force in cantinas. They pvp in front of starports. Now they are actively campaigning to systematically get every SINGLE special nerfed that has a chance of taking them down because 'afterall I'm a Jedi and mundanes shouldnt be able to kill me because they are just stupid mundanes'. I even had a Jedi on Chilastra named -Ultra send a email to a guildie once about how he owned the geo cave and it was his right to prevent anyone else from grinding there because SOE has elevated him to the status of GOD and GOD has decree'd that noone else is allowed in there. They pick and they pick and they chisel and they weasel every SINGLE change one at a time. They will never be happy until you finally change it to a ingame form that one submits requesting jedi and upon aproval (which is mandated all forms are automatically approved) they get to type /firstspec on their next login and just choose the boxes in jedi they would like to have. Mark my words, next they will start demanding the XP requirements of each box be lowered if they havent already.
Nearly all of the rest of us 'peons/laypeople/mundanes' are so sick of the jedi and their Holier than Thou attitude, you can almost feel the hate dripping off the walls. If you run astromech stats on the respec I bet will find an overwhelming amout of players that took up BH just because they are so sick of Jedi. They give nothing to the community, they have been made entirely self sufficent. They need no clothing. They need no weapons. They need no armor. They usually dont even need docs to heal their wounds. I and many others in my guild and on servers across all galaxy want to know one simple thing, we have one meager request:
Can you PLEASE create a galaxy cluster for us and make it a NO JEDI galaxy?!
QFE!!
I am coming at this question from the perspective of a Master Pistolier who does not have any BH skills at all. Infact I my other elite profession is Master Smuggler.
I see Concussion shot, followed by Stopping shot (the two root abilities) as the two outstanding skills of my chosen profession. Whether we admit it or not pistolier has become a 'mezzer' profession and truly fits into the category of crowd control. We manage attacks while other people take care of the business end of damage dealing.
I dont see how nerfing these root abilities helps in any shape or form the majority of people who use pistolier - us the non BH community. This takes away the use of this profession in its entirety. All I can say is that is root ability gets nerfed then it needs to be compensated with at least one serious damage dealing ability shot with a low cool down. But that doesnt make sense as it just moves the profession closer to the genuine damage dealing professions.
The answer to me is to leave the profession well alone, it works, and I thoroughly enjoy my job on the battle field, running around and controlling agro and actually being close enough to the mess to pick up a lot of loot! I dont deal a lot of death but let my master rifle friends shoot until they have finger ache!
As far as Gank squads are concerned, correct me if I am wrong but George Lucas just had Gank Squads erradicate the Jedi order in Episode III?!?!?! These were clone troopers taking out Jedi, not other jedi. So in the Star Wars official universe the Jedi got Ganked. So IMO Jedi can be Ganked in the online version.
Perhaps the real issue then is this idea of skills crossing over and without the use of specialist weapons. Surely an obvious answer to this would be to put the best skills of a profession in the master box and actually include code that only allows the special to take effect with the specific weapon of the profession. Therefore the BH can still use stopping shot or Concussion shot if they have master pistolier or smuggler, however they would have to make this shot with a pistol to allow the shot to take effect. Then they have to switch to another weapon to cause any real damage. If weapon change ups had a long cool down this would negate somewhat the potential of this shot in a Gank Squad PvP sense, but in no way effect its performance in GCW as you would most likely have group battles where you are relying on each others skills and a pistolier would therefore stick with his chosen weapon of choice.
So in a nut shell, save our decent skills, its what makes the profession good to use, and I for one would be asking SOE for a respec if they changed this ability.
oscabegra wrote:
You shouldn't be having 4 riflemen lay roots on you while they are covered. Once something other than conceal shot is fired the cover breaks and they should be showing up on your radar. If this isn't the case then it is a bug that should be fixed.
Ka-oan wrote:
Okay, so let's take Jedi/BH out of the equasion:
Say you're an Imperial SF member, heading out for some PvP one night. You and your group zone into Coronet, not knowing what awaits.. but hopeful that there are some Rebel SF members about. You head out of the starport and are suddenly +ROOT+. You quickly start tabbing around looking for someone.. anyone... -ROOT-. +ROOT+.... uh oh.. there must be covered riflemen/pistoleers about using a combination of stoppingshot and quickdraw on their Laser Rifles... /bacta, /bacta, -ROOT-, +ROOT+.... -ROOT-...+ROOT+... incap. 4 riflemen appear on your radar and you visit the cloner.
Could this happen (honest question)? If so.. would you call it fair and fun?
Thank you for actually answering my question, rather than spitting out some bitter response about this situation being impossible because everyone is a jedi, or making some snide remark about zoning into a starport.
So cover breaks on anything other than concealshot, okay. Then let's modify my senario: The Imp in question is a pistol user. One by one, after you are rooted, riflemen appear on your radar. Everything else still applies, and the chance to be perma-rooted STILL exists. This is the point I'm trying to stress.
Ka-oan wrote:
oscabegra wrote:
You shouldn't be having 4 riflemen lay roots on you while they are covered. Once something other than conceal shot is fired the cover breaks and they should be showing up on your radar. If this isn't the case then it is a bug that should be fixed.
Ka-oan wrote:
Okay, so let's take Jedi/BH out of the equasion:
Say you're an Imperial SF member, heading out for some PvP one night. You and your group zone into Coronet, not knowing what awaits.. but hopeful that there are some Rebel SF members about. You head out of the starport and are suddenly +ROOT+. You quickly start tabbing around looking for someone.. anyone... -ROOT-. +ROOT+.... uh oh.. there must be covered riflemen/pistoleers about using a combination of stoppingshot and quickdraw on their Laser Rifles... /bacta, /bacta, -ROOT-, +ROOT+.... -ROOT-...+ROOT+... incap. 4 riflemen appear on your radar and you visit the cloner.
Could this happen (honest question)? If so.. would you call it fair and fun?
Thank you for actually answering my question, rather than spitting out some bitter response about this situation being impossible because everyone is a jedi, or making some snide remark about zoning into a starport.
So cover breaks on anything other than concealshot, okay. Then let's modify my senario: The Imp in question is a pistol user. One by one, after you are rooted, riflemen appear on your radar. Everything else still applies, and the chance to be perma-rooted STILL exists. This is the point I'm trying to stress.
lets reverse your scenario so that it closer matches my galaxy so that I can reply to your quest.
Lets say you forget you were SF and log into the game and hop a ride to theed because you need to go buy something from a vendor you frequent there. You zone right into the theed starport and materialize just outside where the same 26 SF imperial that stand there night after night every single night waiting on people to gank are hanging out. Suddenly the 9 dark jedi hit you with stasis and root attacks while the CMs and rifleman pound you with attacks, roots, poisons etc. You die because you were SF and wandered into a gank zone that has a history of being a gank zone (perhaps coronet on your galaxy has this reputation).
If I forgot I was SF and zoned there because I was careless... I deserve to die and will need to get a doc to cure my wounds. Now that I am on leave its likely one of those jedi would heal my wounds for me.
If I was actually trying to PVP and was stupid enough to zone into the starport instead of zoning into somewhere else and then shuttling over to a shuttleport further away from the gank zone I deserve to die.
If I was actually trying to PVP on a completely different planet and zoned into theed starport I still deserve to die because one can insta-travel to any planet (except kashyyk) from the ship terminals.
Even if it were 4 on 1 I expect to die and if they used root or some other tactic like snare would make no difference, a regular player would be dead. I would still be dead, may have taken 1 with me but it doesnt prevent me from being dead. Your theory about surprise ganking actually could apply to several jedi doing cloak aswell. You zone into a place and think you are in the clear when suddenly you get jumped by 6 cloaked jedi that root you and pound you to the floor.
Message Edited by EEMAN on 05-27-2005 10:47 AM
Sablin wrote:
<Make is so you dont get on terms unless you go overt as a jedi. There is alot of master PvPers that like BH attacks. Then there is me. I PAY to have fun. If i want to group with 7 guildmates and go hunting then i should be able to with out having to have everyone help me watch for a BH to jump me when I'm mid fight. To me the GAME is about grouping with friends and having fun. How can you do this when you have BH sitting at the starports just waiting on you to load in so the can have you half dead before you get logged in? There is no way to balance a game like this. There will be people that use anything they can to make the game work like they want it to. This week its stopping shot. I think we as players need to think of way to make the game better with out taking away skills we have all learned how to use.
Just some thought I had in my head.
Scrapie
One of the founding principles for the way SWG is set up for normal professions is that no normal profession is ever forced into PvP, you have to make a conscious choice to open yourself to PvP attack , becoming factioned is one such PvP choice. Turning yourself Special Forces is an even more deliberate PvP decision.
Jedi are another PvP choice. Ever since the first Jedi appeared (and even more so since the big Jedi revamp last year) it has been made clear that Jedi is a "forced PvP" profession. Either via the old Jedi TEF, or the newer bounty hunter visibility system, Jedi is a PvP profession.
Yes its possible to play a Jedi padawan and avoid PvP (by being very careful and keeping yourself off the the terms). But you have to remember that you are playing a forced PvP profession, and you are actively avoiding the PvP. Anyone playing a Jedi thinking they have a purely PvE profession is kidding themselves.
This is the way it has been designed.