Game Guides Archive

---

pussycat wrote:
Anybody know how to finish Boba Fett's quest for the DWB?

---

There is not real end to it, and its not a real quest. It is just a ploy to get you to enter the bunker, there is no way to satisfy Boba Fett.

---

Dackrendarck wrote:

---

pussycat wrote:

---

Dackrendarck wrote:

loot does not need to be changed at all, its easier to get it now post-CU, it seems the drops are more frequent and mobs are easier to kill... loot is good, in the past 2 weeks my team has gotten 3 PLCs and 2 BLs

---

Dack, just because you guys have been lucky doesn't mean that it is the same for everybody across all servers... I have been doing daily runs in a Euro server the last week. We spent about 18 hours in the DWB over the weekend alone. So far we have only seen one PLC...

So let's see... well over 40 hours spent inside the DWB in the last week ... and the only Mando component looted so far is a single PLC?

Please, please, please, don't generalize and think that just because you have it easy (or got lucky) everybody else does, too.

The drop rates are the worst part of the DWB, the devs need to show some love and increase the drop rates a wee bit.

P.S. Dack, if you guys get so much loot in your server... how about sharing the wealth? I can create a toon in your server and get it up to CL80 in about a week or two... Will you share your loot with me too, since it's so easy for you?

Message Edited by pussycat on 08-29-2005 06:49 PM

---

w/e guess it is just CHilly, or the fact that so many from our guild live down there... there have been about 8 peices made in the past month here, and -X- stil has many BLs left to use. bottom line is though, mando should be really rare, and there should really not be a ton of it on every server, you just have to work hard to get it

---

There are only 15 or so pieces on Chilly, about 11 are helms.

---

pussycat wrote:

---

DaHotLama wrote:

I dissagree with some of you, it should not be easier, its made to be the hardest dungeon in the game, its meant to be a CHALLENGE! infact, with a proper group, its kinda easy

---

You are missing the point... I enjoy a challenge as much as the next gal. I love the DWB because it's the toughest dungeon in the game. And I still think that it needs some love, as the title of the thread says. Maybe they can turn down the mob levels a bit, so that it won't always require Jedi tanks to get through it; and they also have to revisit the drop rates in there... they are waaaaay beyond ridiculous right now, you can spend 40 hours a week in the DWB on some servers and come up empty-handed as far as Mando components go. And don't tell me that 40+ hours a week in the DWB is "just not trying hard enough" because that's baloney. That's total baloney. I have been doing the DWB for a little over 2 months, doing it religiously, I am now leading daily runs in a Euro server to take advantage of the time difference (which sometimes allows 2 or 3 runs a day). And all I have to show for it in the way of Mando components is just 1 PLC. Don't dare to tell me that it's just about "not trying hard enough", I would need to be in the DWB 24 hours a day 7 days a week to be "trying harder". Is it easy with the right group? Yes, but almost invariably this involves having 4-6 Jedi (mostly Master Defenders), the game shouldn't only reward groups that have Jedi toons with them.

---

Ok, I guess I missed your point before. I thought you were pushing for the decrease in MOB difficulty and making the DWB a place that any play in the game can just go to. THAT I a madimantly against, but I do agree that the drop rate is insane. For 2 weeks of running we only have 5 jet pack pieces to show for it, and that was 1-2 runs a night. And of course, no PLC or BL.

---

JediGias wrote:

---

pussycat wrote:

---

Ejai wrote:

---

pussycat wrote: God, you honestly haven't been reading all along, have you??? Either that or you are being incredibly dense. "Try it yourself"? I must have said this a zillion times, but I guess I just have to say it again... been there, don't that. I've been in several successful runs to the DWB, and I know how to make it to the crafting room and even get a CL1 toon down there. Guess what? It doesn't matter, the DWB still needs to be brought down a notch because the way it is, you still can't get enough people interested on a regular basis. The DWB mobs should be brought down a notch, otherwise the DWB will only be there for the benefit of uber-elite powergamers, especially those who want to make million$$ from it.

---

You're entitled to your opinion... even if it's wrong.

This idea that everything in SWG needs to be able to be accomplished by what you call the "casual player" and that things shouldn't be geared for what you call the "uber elite power gamer" is ludicrous. I have to assume that you also advocate lowering standards of education and eliminating testing, as it "isn't fair to the casual student"... and we should likely remove any physical trials or litmus test for our military personnel because the "casual soldier" ought to be just as welcomed on the front lines or as the person with their finger on the big red button. In fact - why not eliminate money, as it clearly isn't fair to the "casual career person" who doesn't really want to work too hard... those "uber elite workaholics" really do deserve to have their efforts be all for naught.

The bottom line is - the Death Watch Bunker is NOT particularly difficult right now as long as you have a well organized team of folks who have completed (or even nearly so) templates. EVERY SINGLE SERVER has hundreds of plyaers who could easily do this (as evidenced by the recent server census). It absolutely IS a challenge... and does require strategy... and to make it any less than that will ruin it as an accomplishment for those who enjoy a challenge... which, in my mind, is 90% of the population of folks who play games - including this one.

On Tempest we organize weekly expeditions into the bunker, open to the general public... we provide the Alum Minerals and the Stabilizers free of charge to anyone who wants a jetpack or Mandalorian Armor... we charge a grand total of ZERO for this... and it is a great time for a lot of folks.

Last but not least.... I am further assuming that when they were handing out brains, and you got to the front of the line... SOMEbody said "let's bring it down a notch"....

(((all flames executed with light heart and no personal insult intended. Please refererence this link)))

---

You're also entitled to your opinion... even if it's wrong.

How is it ludicrous to provide a level playing field for all players? Everybody pays the same monthly fee, so everybody should have an equal opportunity to access dungeons and special areas/instances once they have the CL for it. To say otherwise is to be an elitist pig. Uber-eleet powergamers just want to hoard all for themselves and not share with anybody. You cannot compare an ONLINE GAME to RL stuff like education, the military, etc. Because it's a GAME!!! That's all it is, a game for which we all pay the same.

The DWB will remain a challenge even after being taken down a notch. Why? Because it will still require coordination, strategy, and more likely than not, persistance (especially when it comes to crafting). It is no different than many other dungeons in the game in that it's impossible with the wrong group yet can be a lot of fun if you have the right group. That's what it all comes down to. And making it more accessible is just fair to the player base. If you want to make it more challenging for yourself you can try going with a smaller group than you're used to, it's no biggie.

---

You are absolutley right, everyone does deserve the same opportunities to access the same dungeons. And you know what? They do have that, right now, at this very moment, and always have in galaxies. Just because someone has played from day one does not mean that they have some special powers that someone who has played for 3 months does not have. EVERYONE has the same exact chance of success in galaxies because we all do start on the same exact footing. Everyone can access every dungeon, but it just requires that the people actually work hard and try. There is not one single person on any server that cannot go out there and do Jabba's quests so he can talk to Boba Fett, and gain access to the Death Watch Bunker, and then form a group and traverse the dungeon. NO ONE is prohibited from that. The thing is that people have to work for it. This game would tank and die, as would any other game, if everything was handed to the player on a silver platter. The fun of games is the challange and the work put in to reach a goal, you take that away and you cannot even call it a game anymore, it then becomes a movie, watching things happen to a character. And you do not have to be a power gammer to do the DWB.

I am a casual gamer. I have been in game since the beta, but I never grinded a profession (except doctor). I have never used a grinding macro, I spent MONTHS getting my Rifleman proffession. I dont have super equipment, I have decent armor, but nothing super special. The group I run with read up on the DWB guides and tagged along with other groups a few times and now we run the bunker. Of two weeks of bunker runs we ended up with 3 jetpacks and 2 mando helms. Does that sound like an impossibly hard dungeon that only the best of the best can complete? All that the DWB requires is a team with the right professions, those people to be of high enough level, and good strategy.

Now if we step over to your view for a moment we can see what results. To be correct in your views they must be consistant. You cannot think that it is okay to do X when Y at one time then turn around and at a nother time say it is wrong to do X when Y. You say that the Death Watch Bunker needs to be decreased in difficulty to suit the masses. Since you do not want it accessible just to the people who develop strategy and work hard at learning the bunker but just open to everybody, we get some interesting other view points. This being the case, we have to remember that a very substancial portion of the population of the servers are crafters/new players. I lump these together because they are both weak in combat. To suit a majority of the population we have to make the DWB survivable by these people. So it would be good to see a level 5 brawler beating up an SBD? But wait, we can't stop with the DWB. To be consistant in your view of leveling the playing field (which I say is already level because everyone has the same opportunities, just not he same skills yet, but if they WORKED at it they could have the same skill sets) we have to make everything as such. We have to have new pilots in head hunters being able to fight gunboats and corvetts. Why cant a novice marksman take on Necrosis? Why cant a scout beat down a Nightsister Elder? If you want to make the DWB easier because not every player can play it with their current template, at this very moment, then there you must say the same thing about every other part of the game that is also not playable by them.

Why is it not alright for people to have to work their way up to level 80 to play these areas? Why is it not alright that they have to develop a strategy to fight the hard bosses rather than just spamming their best special? Consider any game that has every existed... EVER. If a game does not hold a challange of some sort it is not a game, period. This is true for the newest player and the oldest player. EVERYONE has to be equal in your mind? Then why are you not treating them equally? You are trying to take away the best challange for the most senior people while introducing a new challange to the newest people. Seems like you are not leveling the playing field but rather tilting it to the newer player. People have to have the possibility for failure for there to be the possibility of success. People have to have challanges for them to find a game entertaining. How fun would Galaxies be if you signed on and all you got was a screen saying "You win", and thats all there is?

---

Well, thank you very much for this atrocious misrepresentation of everything I have said...

Making the game more egalitarian does not mean I believe in non-combat professions being able to single-handedly do the hardest dungeons in the game... you are either being facetious or you are truly trying to engage in some serious character assasination here.

First of all, I would *always* advocate newer players to get up to CL80 before doing the really challenging stuff in the game. The only exception I can think of to this is taking a crafter inside the DWB for a crafting run, if the crafter is CL1 then you're going to have to protect them and/or constantly rez them, and it's going to be the same whether said CL1 crafter is new to the game or has been around since launch. Now, having said that, I wouldn't want the DWB to be different as far as having to have a clear strategy and being able to coordinate well. But that doesn't mean that it can't be turned down a notch or two... I have been to every room in the DWB, I have finished the foreman's quest in 2 live servers, I have killed both overlords more times than I can keep count of... and while I love it *because* it is challenging, I would still rather it be turned down a notch... and slightly increase the drop rates for both Mando components and other various lootable items. This is how I see it as making it more egalitarian, because you are still going to pretty much need to be CL80 and have a good combat template (except for crafters, who are protected and/or rezzed during DWB runs). It will still be the most challenging area in the game... it just opens it up for more people to enjoy. I don't see that as taking away the fun for "senior players" -- it wouldn't take away the fun for me, as much as I enjoy the DWB as it currently is.

This is just a game.... with all your talk about seniority you are making it sound like a career.

---

JediGias wrote:

---

pussycat wrote:

People who advocate for the current status quo do so because of their own selfish wants/needs

---

So it would not be possible to advocate the current status quo for any other reason even if you did so because you believed that it was fair, not unbalanced, and actually believed you could make convincing arguements for it?

---

I have yet to hear a convincing argument for it...

---

JediGias wrote:

---

pussycat wrote:
Anybody know how to finish Boba Fett's quest for the DWB?

---

There is not real end to it, and its not a real quest. It is just a ploy to get you to enter the bunker, there is no way to satisfy Boba Fett.

---

Which is a shame, really, it would be nice if you could come back after killing the overlord and get some sort of recognition from Boba....

---

JediGias wrote:

---

pussycat wrote:

---

DaHotLama wrote:

I dissagree with some of you, it should not be easier, its made to be the hardest dungeon in the game, its meant to be a CHALLENGE! infact, with a proper group, its kinda easy

---

You are missing the point... I enjoy a challenge as much as the next gal. I love the DWB because it's the toughest dungeon in the game. And I still think that it needs some love, as the title of the thread says. Maybe they can turn down the mob levels a bit, so that it won't always require Jedi tanks to get through it; and they also have to revisit the drop rates in there... they are waaaaay beyond ridiculous right now, you can spend 40 hours a week in the DWB on some servers and come up empty-handed as far as Mando components go. And don't tell me that 40+ hours a week in the DWB is "just not trying hard enough" because that's baloney. That's total baloney. I have been doing the DWB for a little over 2 months, doing it religiously, I am now leading daily runs in a Euro server to take advantage of the time difference (which sometimes allows 2 or 3 runs a day). And all I have to show for it in the way of Mando components is just 1 PLC. Don't dare to tell me that it's just about "not trying hard enough", I would need to be in the DWB 24 hours a day 7 days a week to be "trying harder". Is it easy with the right group? Yes, but almost invariably this involves having 4-6 Jedi (mostly Master Defenders), the game shouldn't only reward groups that have Jedi toons with them.

---

Ok, I guess I missed your point before. I thought you were pushing for the decrease in MOB difficulty and making the DWB a place that any play in the game can just go to. THAT I a madimantly against, but I do agree that the drop rate is insane. For 2 weeks of running we only have 5 jet pack pieces to show for it, and that was 1-2 runs a night. And of course, no PLC or BL.

---

I have gone on over 100 DWB runs in the last 2 months alone.... and for the last week I have been leading daily runs in Chimaera (1 or 2 runs daily). I have spent probably 50+ hours inside the DWB in the last week alone. What do I have to show for it after the last 2 months? Just 1 PLC.

C'mon, I mean, even if I were able to get 1 each of PLC/BL a month, it would still take close to a year to finish a full suit of Mando armor... and I just want it for display in my house or yacht.

Message Edited by pussycat on 09-01-2005 10:49 AM

---

pussycat wrote:

---

JediGias wrote:

---

Demio_Olaron wrote:
I also think the DWB should be toned down a bit. Yes, made a bit easier. Right now it's a very elitist place and I think it should be opened to the majority of the population tbh.

What's the fun of having a dungeon that only 5% of the players can enjoy?

By the way, flame away, go ahead. I already reported one of the posters in this thread and I'll do it again tbh.

---

So you would rather have no high end contect and have all places be open to all people? What, then, would there be to keep high end players engaged? Why should they continue paying that 13$/month? There HAS to be high end contect that ONLY the top people are able to do and sometimes just barely able to do for the game to hold any interest to them. If there are no challanges then why would anyone pay to play the game?

---

OK, I'm sorry but that's a false dichotomy. It's not an "either-or" situation where the only alternative to making the game a bit more egalitarian is to "have all place be open to all people". Casual gamers don't get to be CL80 as fast as powergamers. And on top of the there is the Jedi profession, certainly you don't get to go from FS to a full-template Jedi overnight. There are already a lot of "gates" that mean casual gamers won't ever enjoy the same stuff as powergamers and people who spend 15+ hours a week in-game. You can turn down the notch a bit on DWB and it's still got plenty of challenges for "high-end" players. I don't see why you would think that having high-end content in the game that ONLY the top people can do makes it hold interest for us. I have been in game since launch, I've done pretty much every quest and mission there is.... what I enjoy most is helping other players who are new to the game and are trying to get some basic goals accomplished. I would much rather they were able to join me on stuff like DWB so that they, too, could see all of the fun things there are to do in the game and will remain interested to be in the game for the long run, instead of just doing a quick grind and then moving on when the next MMORPG comes along.

So, yes, the DWB should be turned down a notch. The drop rates should be tweaked -- not a "massive" increase as Dread would have you believe I want -- so that crafting stuff in the DWB is not an impossible dream to an average player. I mean, even if it was possible for a dedicated player (one who goes to the DWB at every opportunity) to get 1 set of PLC/BL a month.... it would still take close to a year to put together a full suit of Mando armor. It really shouldn't be that hard, this is just a game, let people have fun and if they want Mando armor, make it so it's not close to impossible to get one. I mean, what's the big deal about Mando anyhow? There's only 2 sets of armor in the game that are taken from the bounty hunters in the movies: Mabari and Mando. I wouldn't advocate for both to be equally accessible, but a bit more Mando here and there (while still making it the rarest armor in the game) would be a definite improvement, we need more stuff to give the game a Star-Warsy atmosphere.

---

I do agree with you on a couple points. I have fun helping lower players do things and I do do other things aside from the highest end content. However, like you said, I like the challange of the DWB. As you were saying, having a Jedi in your group (nameler a defender) in your group makes the bunker much much easier. However, if you do bring the DWB "down a notch" wouldn't that just make any group with a Super Jedi that much easier to run throught the DWB? Of crouse we could say that the Jedi should be nerfed, but I dont think that is appropriate because Jedi are supposed to be more skilled then normal people. In game terms, getting to be jedi is supposed to be a reward for lots of hard work and effort. Since I refure to cheaply AFK grind my way to jedi and then AFK grind up the jedi trees it will take me forever, but I will cherish it that much more. Also yeah, the drop rates are severly boinked in tyhe DWB. But I do think that Mando should be rare. It is a prize, and you have to work hard to get it. But yeah, PLC and BL should drop a little more on Chilastra, it seems other servers are not having the same problem.

But I really do want to know why every area has to be of low enough difficulty that every player can just up and take it on? This is not just you, but seems many people hold this opinion. Any player can work their way to Boba Fett to get into the bunker, but why should it be the case that they should be able to just head out to the bunker and without practice at navigating it or fighting the MOBs make their way through? Im not positive that this is the arguement you are making but it seems at least some people hold this to be true. Im just not sure how much you can tone down the DWB and still have it be a challange. I know a few groups that run it and it is not a big problem for them any more. So long as people follow orders everything turns our fine. At some points things cut a little close, but that makes it exciting. If it were toned down, I fear that excitment of adventuring into the dangerous would be lost.

BTW, I am not looking to get into the flam war that you had with that other fellow. I hate flam wars and much rather prefer a debate where if one person presents their side sufficiently they might win the other person over or discover that they infact agree on many things but did not realize it due to misunderstanding.

---

pussycat wrote:

---

JediGias wrote:

---

pussycat wrote:

---

Ejai wrote:

---

pussycat wrote: God, you honestly haven't been reading all along, have you??? Either that or you are being incredibly dense. "Try it yourself"? I must have said this a zillion times, but I guess I just have to say it again... been there, don't that. I've been in several successful runs to the DWB, and I know how to make it to the crafting room and even get a CL1 toon down there. Guess what? It doesn't matter, the DWB still needs to be brought down a notch because the way it is, you still can't get enough people interested on a regular basis. The DWB mobs should be brought down a notch, otherwise the DWB will only be there for the benefit of uber-elite powergamers, especially those who want to make million$$ from it.

---

You're entitled to your opinion... even if it's wrong.

This idea that everything in SWG needs to be able to be accomplished by what you call the "casual player" and that things shouldn't be geared for what you call the "uber elite power gamer" is ludicrous. I have to assume that you also advocate lowering standards of education and eliminating testing, as it "isn't fair to the casual student"... and we should likely remove any physical trials or litmus test for our military personnel because the "casual soldier" ought to be just as welcomed on the front lines or as the person with their finger on the big red button. In fact - why not eliminate money, as it clearly isn't fair to the "casual career person" who doesn't really want to work too hard... those "uber elite workaholics" really do deserve to have their efforts be all for naught.

The bottom line is - the Death Watch Bunker is NOT particularly difficult right now as long as you have a well organized team of folks who have completed (or even nearly so) templates. EVERY SINGLE SERVER has hundreds of plyaers who could easily do this (as evidenced by the recent server census). It absolutely IS a challenge... and does require strategy... and to make it any less than that will ruin it as an accomplishment for those who enjoy a challenge... which, in my mind, is 90% of the population of folks who play games - including this one.

On Tempest we organize weekly expeditions into the bunker, open to the general public... we provide the Alum Minerals and the Stabilizers free of charge to anyone who wants a jetpack or Mandalorian Armor... we charge a grand total of ZERO for this... and it is a great time for a lot of folks.

Last but not least.... I am further assuming that when they were handing out brains, and you got to the front of the line... SOMEbody said "let's bring it down a notch"....

(((all flames executed with light heart and no personal insult intended. Please refererence this link)))

---

You're also entitled to your opinion... even if it's wrong.

How is it ludicrous to provide a level playing field for all players? Everybody pays the same monthly fee, so everybody should have an equal opportunity to access dungeons and special areas/instances once they have the CL for it. To say otherwise is to be an elitist pig. Uber-eleet powergamers just want to hoard all for themselves and not share with anybody. You cannot compare an ONLINE GAME to RL stuff like education, the military, etc. Because it's a GAME!!! That's all it is, a game for which we all pay the same.

The DWB will remain a challenge even after being taken down a notch. Why? Because it will still require coordination, strategy, and more likely than not, persistance (especially when it comes to crafting). It is no different than many other dungeons in the game in that it's impossible with the wrong group yet can be a lot of fun if you have the right group. That's what it all comes down to. And making it more accessible is just fair to the player base. If you want to make it more challenging for yourself you can try going with a smaller group than you're used to, it's no biggie.

---

You are absolutley right, everyone does deserve the same opportunities to access the same dungeons. And you know what? They do have that, right now, at this very moment, and always have in galaxies. Just because someone has played from day one does not mean that they have some special powers that someone who has played for 3 months does not have. EVERYONE has the same exact chance of success in galaxies because we all do start on the same exact footing. Everyone can access every dungeon, but it just requires that the people actually work hard and try. There is not one single person on any server that cannot go out there and do Jabba's quests so he can talk to Boba Fett, and gain access to the Death Watch Bunker, and then form a group and traverse the dungeon. NO ONE is prohibited from that. The thing is that people have to work for it. This game would tank and die, as would any other game, if everything was handed to the player on a silver platter. The fun of games is the challange and the work put in to reach a goal, you take that away and you cannot even call it a game anymore, it then becomes a movie, watching things happen to a character. And you do not have to be a power gammer to do the DWB.

I am a casual gamer. I have been in game since the beta, but I never grinded a profession (except doctor). I have never used a grinding macro, I spent MONTHS getting my Rifleman proffession. I dont have super equipment, I have decent armor, but nothing super special. The group I run with read up on the DWB guides and tagged along with other groups a few times and now we run the bunker. Of two weeks of bunker runs we ended up with 3 jetpacks and 2 mando helms. Does that sound like an impossibly hard dungeon that only the best of the best can complete? All that the DWB requires is a team with the right professions, those people to be of high enough level, and good strategy.

Now if we step over to your view for a moment we can see what results. To be correct in your views they must be consistant. You cannot think that it is okay to do X when Y at one time then turn around and at a nother time say it is wrong to do X when Y. You say that the Death Watch Bunker needs to be decreased in difficulty to suit the masses. Since you do not want it accessible just to the people who develop strategy and work hard at learning the bunker but just open to everybody, we get some interesting other view points. This being the case, we have to remember that a very substancial portion of the population of the servers are crafters/new players. I lump these together because they are both weak in combat. To suit a majority of the population we have to make the DWB survivable by these people. So it would be good to see a level 5 brawler beating up an SBD? But wait, we can't stop with the DWB. To be consistant in your view of leveling the playing field (which I say is already level because everyone has the same opportunities, just not he same skills yet, but if they WORKED at it they could have the same skill sets) we have to make everything as such. We have to have new pilots in head hunters being able to fight gunboats and corvetts. Why cant a novice marksman take on Necrosis? Why cant a scout beat down a Nightsister Elder? If you want to make the DWB easier because not every player can play it with their current template, at this very moment, then there you must say the same thing about every other part of the game that is also not playable by them.

Why is it not alright for people to have to work their way up to level 80 to play these areas? Why is it not alright that they have to develop a strategy to fight the hard bosses rather than just spamming their best special? Consider any game that has every existed... EVER. If a game does not hold a challange of some sort it is not a game, period. This is true for the newest player and the oldest player. EVERYONE has to be equal in your mind? Then why are you not treating them equally? You are trying to take away the best challange for the most senior people while introducing a new challange to the newest people. Seems like you are not leveling the playing field but rather tilting it to the newer player. People have to have the possibility for failure for there to be the possibility of success. People have to have challanges for them to find a game entertaining. How fun would Galaxies be if you signed on and all you got was a screen saying "You win", and thats all there is?

---

Well, thank you very much for this atrocious misrepresentation of everything I have said...

Making the game more egalitarian does not mean I believe in non-combat professions being able to single-handedly do the hardest dungeons in the game... you are either being facetious or you are truly trying to engage in some serious character assasination here.

First of all, I would *always* advocate newer players to get up to CL80 before doing the really challenging stuff in the game. The only exception I can think of to this is taking a crafter inside the DWB for a crafting run, if the crafter is CL1 then you're going to have to protect them and/or constantly rez them, and it's going to be the same whether said CL1 crafter is new to the game or has been around since launch. Now, having said that, I wouldn't want the DWB to be different as far as having to have a clear strategy and being able to coordinate well. But that doesn't mean that it can't be turned down a notch or two... I have been to every room in the DWB, I have finished the foreman's quest in 2 live servers, I have killed both overlords more times than I can keep count of... and while I love it *because* it is challenging, I would still rather it be turned down a notch... and slightly increase the drop rates for both Mando components and other various lootable items. This is how I see it as making it more egalitarian, because you are still going to pretty much need to be CL80 and have a good combat template (except for crafters, who are protected and/or rezzed during DWB runs). It will still be the most challenging area in the game... it just opens it up for more people to enjoy. I don't see that as taking away the fun for "senior players" -- it wouldn't take away the fun for me, as much as I enjoy the DWB as it currently is.

This is just a game.... with all your talk about seniority you are making it sound like a career.

---

Ah okay, now I get you better. I was not tryin gto insult you. Believe it or not, I have actually heard people spewing forth that everyone (and I mean dancers, singers, and level 32 combat profs) should be able to handle the DWB to make it *fair*. Not only that, but that they do not need to know the bunker, they should just go in there and wing it. I was under the impression that was your point of view and took your "bring it down a notch" to mean that. Now that I understand that it just means increase the drop rates a bit, I completely agree, they are broken at the moment. You can feel free to disreguard my other posts that take your point to be other than what I take it to be now. Im glad that I understand your stance now, sorry for the confusion.

---

pussycat wrote:

---

JediGias wrote:

---

pussycat wrote:

---

DaHotLama wrote:

I dissagree with some of you, it should not be easier, its made to be the hardest dungeon in the game, its meant to be a CHALLENGE! infact, with a proper group, its kinda easy

---

You are missing the point... I enjoy a challenge as much as the next gal. I love the DWB because it's the toughest dungeon in the game. And I still think that it needs some love, as the title of the thread says. Maybe they can turn down the mob levels a bit, so that it won't always require Jedi tanks to get through it; and they also have to revisit the drop rates in there... they are waaaaay beyond ridiculous right now, you can spend 40 hours a week in the DWB on some servers and come up empty-handed as far as Mando components go. And don't tell me that 40+ hours a week in the DWB is "just not trying hard enough" because that's baloney. That's total baloney. I have been doing the DWB for a little over 2 months, doing it religiously, I am now leading daily runs in a Euro server to take advantage of the time difference (which sometimes allows 2 or 3 runs a day). And all I have to show for it in the way of Mando components is just 1 PLC. Don't dare to tell me that it's just about "not trying hard enough", I would need to be in the DWB 24 hours a day 7 days a week to be "trying harder". Is it easy with the right group? Yes, but almost invariably this involves having 4-6 Jedi (mostly Master Defenders), the game shouldn't only reward groups that have Jedi toons with them.

---

Ok, I guess I missed your point before. I thought you were pushing for the decrease in MOB difficulty and making the DWB a place that any play in the game can just go to. THAT I a madimantly against, but I do agree that the drop rate is insane. For 2 weeks of running we only have 5 jet pack pieces to show for it, and that was 1-2 runs a night. And of course, no PLC or BL.

---

I have gone on over 100 DWB runs in the last 2 months alone.... and for the last week I have been leading daily runs in Chimaera (1 or 2 runs daily). I have spent probably 50+ hours inside the DWB in the last week alone. What do I have to show for it after the last 2 months? Just 1 PLC.

C'mon, I mean, even if I were able to get 1 each of PLC/BL a month, it would still take close to a year to finish a full suit of Mando armor... and I just want it for display in my house or yacht.

Message Edited by pussycat on 09-01-2005 10:49 AM

---

The DWB difficulty level doesn't need to be changed(if anything it should be a little harder), it's the loot that needs to be fixed. I agree with pussycat.Also, If they remade the level design, made the maze different, that would be cool and spark my interest more.

---

JediGias wrote:

---

pussycat wrote:

---

JediGias wrote:

---

pussycat wrote:

---

Ejai wrote:

---

pussycat wrote: God, you honestly haven't been reading all along, have you??? Either that or you are being incredibly dense. "Try it yourself"? I must have said this a zillion times, but I guess I just have to say it again... been there, don't that. I've been in several successful runs to the DWB, and I know how to make it to the crafting room and even get a CL1 toon down there. Guess what? It doesn't matter, the DWB still needs to be brought down a notch because the way it is, you still can't get enough people interested on a regular basis. The DWB mobs should be brought down a notch, otherwise the DWB will only be there for the benefit of uber-elite powergamers, especially those who want to make million$$ from it.

---

You're entitled to your opinion... even if it's wrong.

This idea that everything in SWG needs to be able to be accomplished by what you call the "casual player" and that things shouldn't be geared for what you call the "uber elite power gamer" is ludicrous. I have to assume that you also advocate lowering standards of education and eliminating testing, as it "isn't fair to the casual student"... and we should likely remove any physical trials or litmus test for our military personnel because the "casual soldier" ought to be just as welcomed on the front lines or as the person with their finger on the big red button. In fact - why not eliminate money, as it clearly isn't fair to the "casual career person" who doesn't really want to work too hard... those "uber elite workaholics" really do deserve to have their efforts be all for naught.

The bottom line is - the Death Watch Bunker is NOT particularly difficult right now as long as you have a well organized team of folks who have completed (or even nearly so) templates. EVERY SINGLE SERVER has hundreds of plyaers who could easily do this (as evidenced by the recent server census). It absolutely IS a challenge... and does require strategy... and to make it any less than that will ruin it as an accomplishment for those who enjoy a challenge... which, in my mind, is 90% of the population of folks who play games - including this one.

On Tempest we organize weekly expeditions into the bunker, open to the general public... we provide the Alum Minerals and the Stabilizers free of charge to anyone who wants a jetpack or Mandalorian Armor... we charge a grand total of ZERO for this... and it is a great time for a lot of folks.

Last but not least.... I am further assuming that when they were handing out brains, and you got to the front of the line... SOMEbody said "let's bring it down a notch"....

(((all flames executed with light heart and no personal insult intended. Please refererence this link)))

---

You're also entitled to your opinion... even if it's wrong.

How is it ludicrous to provide a level playing field for all players? Everybody pays the same monthly fee, so everybody should have an equal opportunity to access dungeons and special areas/instances once they have the CL for it. To say otherwise is to be an elitist pig. Uber-eleet powergamers just want to hoard all for themselves and not share with anybody. You cannot compare an ONLINE GAME to RL stuff like education, the military, etc. Because it's a GAME!!! That's all it is, a game for which we all pay the same.

The DWB will remain a challenge even after being taken down a notch. Why? Because it will still require coordination, strategy, and more likely than not, persistance (especially when it comes to crafting). It is no different than many other dungeons in the game in that it's impossible with the wrong group yet can be a lot of fun if you have the right group. That's what it all comes down to. And making it more accessible is just fair to the player base. If you want to make it more challenging for yourself you can try going with a smaller group than you're used to, it's no biggie.

---

You are absolutley right, everyone does deserve the same opportunities to access the same dungeons. And you know what? They do have that, right now, at this very moment, and always have in galaxies. Just because someone has played from day one does not mean that they have some special powers that someone who has played for 3 months does not have. EVERYONE has the same exact chance of success in galaxies because we all do start on the same exact footing. Everyone can access every dungeon, but it just requires that the people actually work hard and try. There is not one single person on any server that cannot go out there and do Jabba's quests so he can talk to Boba Fett, and gain access to the Death Watch Bunker, and then form a group and traverse the dungeon. NO ONE is prohibited from that. The thing is that people have to work for it. This game would tank and die, as would any other game, if everything was handed to the player on a silver platter. The fun of games is the challange and the work put in to reach a goal, you take that away and you cannot even call it a game anymore, it then becomes a movie, watching things happen to a character. And you do not have to be a power gammer to do the DWB.

I am a casual gamer. I have been in game since the beta, but I never grinded a profession (except doctor). I have never used a grinding macro, I spent MONTHS getting my Rifleman proffession. I dont have super equipment, I have decent armor, but nothing super special. The group I run with read up on the DWB guides and tagged along with other groups a few times and now we run the bunker. Of two weeks of bunker runs we ended up with 3 jetpacks and 2 mando helms. Does that sound like an impossibly hard dungeon that only the best of the best can complete? All that the DWB requires is a team with the right professions, those people to be of high enough level, and good strategy.

Now if we step over to your view for a moment we can see what results. To be correct in your views they must be consistant. You cannot think that it is okay to do X when Y at one time then turn around and at a nother time say it is wrong to do X when Y. You say that the Death Watch Bunker needs to be decreased in difficulty to suit the masses. Since you do not want it accessible just to the people who develop strategy and work hard at learning the bunker but just open to everybody, we get some interesting other view points. This being the case, we have to remember that a very substancial portion of the population of the servers are crafters/new players. I lump these together because they are both weak in combat. To suit a majority of the population we have to make the DWB survivable by these people. So it would be good to see a level 5 brawler beating up an SBD? But wait, we can't stop with the DWB. To be consistant in your view of leveling the playing field (which I say is already level because everyone has the same opportunities, just not he same skills yet, but if they WORKED at it they could have the same skill sets) we have to make everything as such. We have to have new pilots in head hunters being able to fight gunboats and corvetts. Why cant a novice marksman take on Necrosis? Why cant a scout beat down a Nightsister Elder? If you want to make the DWB easier because not every player can play it with their current template, at this very moment, then there you must say the same thing about every other part of the game that is also not playable by them.

Why is it not alright for people to have to work their way up to level 80 to play these areas? Why is it not alright that they have to develop a strategy to fight the hard bosses rather than just spamming their best special? Consider any game that has every existed... EVER. If a game does not hold a challange of some sort it is not a game, period. This is true for the newest player and the oldest player. EVERYONE has to be equal in your mind? Then why are you not treating them equally? You are trying to take away the best challange for the most senior people while introducing a new challange to the newest people. Seems like you are not leveling the playing field but rather tilting it to the newer player. People have to have the possibility for failure for there to be the possibility of success. People have to have challanges for them to find a game entertaining. How fun would Galaxies be if you signed on and all you got was a screen saying "You win", and thats all there is?

---

Well, thank you very much for this atrocious misrepresentation of everything I have said...

Making the game more egalitarian does not mean I believe in non-combat professions being able to single-handedly do the hardest dungeons in the game... you are either being facetious or you are truly trying to engage in some serious character assasination here.

First of all, I would *always* advocate newer players to get up to CL80 before doing the really challenging stuff in the game. The only exception I can think of to this is taking a crafter inside the DWB for a crafting run, if the crafter is CL1 then you're going to have to protect them and/or constantly rez them, and it's going to be the same whether said CL1 crafter is new to the game or has been around since launch. Now, having said that, I wouldn't want the DWB to be different as far as having to have a clear strategy and being able to coordinate well. But that doesn't mean that it can't be turned down a notch or two... I have been to every room in the DWB, I have finished the foreman's quest in 2 live servers, I have killed both overlords more times than I can keep count of... and while I love it *because* it is challenging, I would still rather it be turned down a notch... and slightly increase the drop rates for both Mando components and other various lootable items. This is how I see it as making it more egalitarian, because you are still going to pretty much need to be CL80 and have a good combat template (except for crafters, who are protected and/or rezzed during DWB runs). It will still be the most challenging area in the game... it just opens it up for more people to enjoy. I don't see that as taking away the fun for "senior players" -- it wouldn't take away the fun for me, as much as I enjoy the DWB as it currently is.

This is just a game.... with all your talk about seniority you are making it sound like a career.

---

Ah okay, now I get you better. I was not tryin gto insult you. Believe it or not, I have actually heard people spewing forth that everyone (and I mean dancers, singers, and level 32 combat profs) should be able to handle the DWB to make it *fair*. Not only that, but that they do not need to know the bunker, they should just go in there and wing it. I was under the impression that was your point of view and took your "bring it down a notch" to mean that. Now that I understand that it just means increase the drop rates a bit, I completely agree, they are broken at the moment. You can feel free to disreguard my other posts that take your point to be other than what I take it to be now. Im glad that I understand your stance now, sorry for the confusion.

---

Glad you got my point.... when I say bring it down a notch, I'm taking about a less than 5% change in CL level... except for the bosses. And a bit more loot (but still no more than 1% drop rate for Mando components).

---

reb_killr_09 wrote:

---

pussycat wrote:

---

JediGias wrote:

---

pussycat wrote:

---

DaHotLama wrote:

I dissagree with some of you, it should not be easier, its made to be the hardest dungeon in the game, its meant to be a CHALLENGE! infact, with a proper group, its kinda easy

---

You are missing the point... I enjoy a challenge as much as the next gal. I love the DWB because it's the toughest dungeon in the game. And I still think that it needs some love, as the title of the thread says. Maybe they can turn down the mob levels a bit, so that it won't always require Jedi tanks to get through it; and they also have to revisit the drop rates in there... they are waaaaay beyond ridiculous right now, you can spend 40 hours a week in the DWB on some servers and come up empty-handed as far as Mando components go. And don't tell me that 40+ hours a week in the DWB is "just not trying hard enough" because that's baloney. That's total baloney. I have been doing the DWB for a little over 2 months, doing it religiously, I am now leading daily runs in a Euro server to take advantage of the time difference (which sometimes allows 2 or 3 runs a day). And all I have to show for it in the way of Mando components is just 1 PLC. Don't dare to tell me that it's just about "not trying hard enough", I would need to be in the DWB 24 hours a day 7 days a week to be "trying harder". Is it easy with the right group? Yes, but almost invariably this involves having 4-6 Jedi (mostly Master Defenders), the game shouldn't only reward groups that have Jedi toons with them.

---

Ok, I guess I missed your point before. I thought you were pushing for the decrease in MOB difficulty and making the DWB a place that any play in the game can just go to. THAT I a madimantly against, but I do agree that the drop rate is insane. For 2 weeks of running we only have 5 jet pack pieces to show for it, and that was 1-2 runs a night. And of course, no PLC or BL.

---

I have gone on over 100 DWB runs in the last 2 months alone.... and for the last week I have been leading daily runs in Chimaera (1 or 2 runs daily). I have spent probably 50+ hours inside the DWB in the last week alone. What do I have to show for it after the last 2 months? Just 1 PLC.

C'mon, I mean, even if I were able to get 1 each of PLC/BL a month, it would still take close to a year to finish a full suit of Mando armor... and I just want it for display in my house or yacht.

Message Edited by pussycat on 09-01-2005 10:49 AM

---

The DWB difficulty level doesn't need to be changed(if anything it should be a little harder), it's the loot that needs to be fixed. I agree with pussycat.Also, If they remade the level design, made the maze different, that would be cool and spark my interest more.

---

Um, OK call me a purist for continuity... but if Jedi were able to slice away at BDs with little difficulty in the movies... it would be fun to see that happening here, too. The fact that even a group of Jedi must spend a few seconds (instead of a split second) bringing down a BD just doesn't seem... appropriate somehow. I seriously think it would be more fun if the regular mob had a CL on average 5% lower... just keep the bosses the same way.

Message Edited by pussycat on 09-01-2005 11:20 AM

---

pussycat wrote:

---

JediGias wrote:

---

pussycat wrote:

---

JediGias wrote:

---

pussycat wrote:

---

Ejai wrote:

---

pussycat wrote: God, you honestly haven't been reading all along, have you??? Either that or you are being incredibly dense. "Try it yourself"? I must have said this a zillion times, but I guess I just have to say it again... been there, don't that. I've been in several successful runs to the DWB, and I know how to make it to the crafting room and even get a CL1 toon down there. Guess what? It doesn't matter, the DWB still needs to be brought down a notch because the way it is, you still can't get enough people interested on a regular basis. The DWB mobs should be brought down a notch, otherwise the DWB will only be there for the benefit of uber-elite powergamers, especially those who want to make million$$ from it.

---

You're entitled to your opinion... even if it's wrong.

This idea that everything in SWG needs to be able to be accomplished by what you call the "casual player" and that things shouldn't be geared for what you call the "uber elite power gamer" is ludicrous. I have to assume that you also advocate lowering standards of education and eliminating testing, as it "isn't fair to the casual student"... and we should likely remove any physical trials or litmus test for our military personnel because the "casual soldier" ought to be just as welcomed on the front lines or as the person with their finger on the big red button. In fact - why not eliminate money, as it clearly isn't fair to the "casual career person" who doesn't really want to work too hard... those "uber elite workaholics" really do deserve to have their efforts be all for naught.

The bottom line is - the Death Watch Bunker is NOT particularly difficult right now as long as you have a well organized team of folks who have completed (or even nearly so) templates. EVERY SINGLE SERVER has hundreds of plyaers who could easily do this (as evidenced by the recent server census). It absolutely IS a challenge... and does require strategy... and to make it any less than that will ruin it as an accomplishment for those who enjoy a challenge... which, in my mind, is 90% of the population of folks who play games - including this one.

On Tempest we organize weekly expeditions into the bunker, open to the general public... we provide the Alum Minerals and the Stabilizers free of charge to anyone who wants a jetpack or Mandalorian Armor... we charge a grand total of ZERO for this... and it is a great time for a lot of folks.

Last but not least.... I am further assuming that when they were handing out brains, and you got to the front of the line... SOMEbody said "let's bring it down a notch"....

(((all flames executed with light heart and no personal insult intended. Please refererence this link)))

---

You're also entitled to your opinion... even if it's wrong.

How is it ludicrous to provide a level playing field for all players? Everybody pays the same monthly fee, so everybody should have an equal opportunity to access dungeons and special areas/instances once they have the CL for it. To say otherwise is to be an elitist pig. Uber-eleet powergamers just want to hoard all for themselves and not share with anybody. You cannot compare an ONLINE GAME to RL stuff like education, the military, etc. Because it's a GAME!!! That's all it is, a game for which we all pay the same.

The DWB will remain a challenge even after being taken down a notch. Why? Because it will still require coordination, strategy, and more likely than not, persistance (especially when it comes to crafting). It is no different than many other dungeons in the game in that it's impossible with the wrong group yet can be a lot of fun if you have the right group. That's what it all comes down to. And making it more accessible is just fair to the player base. If you want to make it more challenging for yourself you can try going with a smaller group than you're used to, it's no biggie.

---

You are absolutley right, everyone does deserve the same opportunities to access the same dungeons. And you know what? They do have that, right now, at this very moment, and always have in galaxies. Just because someone has played from day one does not mean that they have some special powers that someone who has played for 3 months does not have. EVERYONE has the same exact chance of success in galaxies because we all do start on the same exact footing. Everyone can access every dungeon, but it just requires that the people actually work hard and try. There is not one single person on any server that cannot go out there and do Jabba's quests so he can talk to Boba Fett, and gain access to the Death Watch Bunker, and then form a group and traverse the dungeon. NO ONE is prohibited from that. The thing is that people have to work for it. This game would tank and die, as would any other game, if everything was handed to the player on a silver platter. The fun of games is the challange and the work put in to reach a goal, you take that away and you cannot even call it a game anymore, it then becomes a movie, watching things happen to a character. And you do not have to be a power gammer to do the DWB.

I am a casual gamer. I have been in game since the beta, but I never grinded a profession (except doctor). I have never used a grinding macro, I spent MONTHS getting my Rifleman proffession. I dont have super equipment, I have decent armor, but nothing super special. The group I run with read up on the DWB guides and tagged along with other groups a few times and now we run the bunker. Of two weeks of bunker runs we ended up with 3 jetpacks and 2 mando helms. Does that sound like an impossibly hard dungeon that only the best of the best can complete? All that the DWB requires is a team with the right professions, those people to be of high enough level, and good strategy.

Now if we step over to your view for a moment we can see what results. To be correct in your views they must be consistant. You cannot think that it is okay to do X when Y at one time then turn around and at a nother time say it is wrong to do X when Y. You say that the Death Watch Bunker needs to be decreased in difficulty to suit the masses. Since you do not want it accessible just to the people who develop strategy and work hard at learning the bunker but just open to everybody, we get some interesting other view points. This being the case, we have to remember that a very substancial portion of the population of the servers are crafters/new players. I lump these together because they are both weak in combat. To suit a majority of the population we have to make the DWB survivable by these people. So it would be good to see a level 5 brawler beating up an SBD? But wait, we can't stop with the DWB. To be consistant in your view of leveling the playing field (which I say is already level because everyone has the same opportunities, just not he same skills yet, but if they WORKED at it they could have the same skill sets) we have to make everything as such. We have to have new pilots in head hunters being able to fight gunboats and corvetts. Why cant a novice marksman take on Necrosis? Why cant a scout beat down a Nightsister Elder? If you want to make the DWB easier because not every player can play it with their current template, at this very moment, then there you must say the same thing about every other part of the game that is also not playable by them.

Why is it not alright for people to have to work their way up to level 80 to play these areas? Why is it not alright that they have to develop a strategy to fight the hard bosses rather than just spamming their best special? Consider any game that has every existed... EVER. If a game does not hold a challange of some sort it is not a game, period. This is true for the newest player and the oldest player. EVERYONE has to be equal in your mind? Then why are you not treating them equally? You are trying to take away the best challange for the most senior people while introducing a new challange to the newest people. Seems like you are not leveling the playing field but rather tilting it to the newer player. People have to have the possibility for failure for there to be the possibility of success. People have to have challanges for them to find a game entertaining. How fun would Galaxies be if you signed on and all you got was a screen saying "You win", and thats all there is?

---

Well, thank you very much for this atrocious misrepresentation of everything I have said...

Making the game more egalitarian does not mean I believe in non-combat professions being able to single-handedly do the hardest dungeons in the game... you are either being facetious or you are truly trying to engage in some serious character assasination here.

First of all, I would *always* advocate newer players to get up to CL80 before doing the really challenging stuff in the game. The only exception I can think of to this is taking a crafter inside the DWB for a crafting run, if the crafter is CL1 then you're going to have to protect them and/or constantly rez them, and it's going to be the same whether said CL1 crafter is new to the game or has been around since launch. Now, having said that, I wouldn't want the DWB to be different as far as having to have a clear strategy and being able to coordinate well. But that doesn't mean that it can't be turned down a notch or two... I have been to every room in the DWB, I have finished the foreman's quest in 2 live servers, I have killed both overlords more times than I can keep count of... and while I love it *because* it is challenging, I would still rather it be turned down a notch... and slightly increase the drop rates for both Mando components and other various lootable items. This is how I see it as making it more egalitarian, because you are still going to pretty much need to be CL80 and have a good combat template (except for crafters, who are protected and/or rezzed during DWB runs). It will still be the most challenging area in the game... it just opens it up for more people to enjoy. I don't see that as taking away the fun for "senior players" -- it wouldn't take away the fun for me, as much as I enjoy the DWB as it currently is.

This is just a game.... with all your talk about seniority you are making it sound like a career.

---

Ah okay, now I get you better. I was not tryin gto insult you. Believe it or not, I have actually heard people spewing forth that everyone (and I mean dancers, singers, and level 32 combat profs) should be able to handle the DWB to make it *fair*. Not only that, but that they do not need to know the bunker, they should just go in there and wing it. I was under the impression that was your point of view and took your "bring it down a notch" to mean that. Now that I understand that it just means increase the drop rates a bit, I completely agree, they are broken at the moment. You can feel free to disreguard my other posts that take your point to be other than what I take it to be now. Im glad that I understand your stance now, sorry for the confusion.

---

Glad you got my point.... when I say bring it down a notch, I'm taking about a less than 5% change in CL level... except for the bosses. And a bit more loot (but still no more than 1% drop rate for Mando components).

---

Well, I do still have to disagree with you on the level change, unfortunately. This is the only concentration of level 90+ MOBs int he game that I know about. I think there should be one definitively hardest area in the game, and this is it. However, it is not all that hard, infact I find Avatar harder only because I am not able to get as many people to go to the Avatar. There are great strategies out there for the DWB and many groups running it. In all honesty you just have to group with an experianced team a few times to learn the strat and everything is fine. Now the DWB is old hat, and I dont find it to be that challanging. Im saddend that the DWB doesnt hold the challange that it used to. I hope they put something in game with like 110+ Level MOBs. The game needs something that is nigh impossible to beat, a super challange. Also, they should let SL make larger groups so that they can take on these challanges.

But I guess that is all we differ on, and I doubt you would agree with me, or that many people would. I love having unbelievable challanges in games, things other people think I am insane for wanting to try. I just find that every challange presented to me lengthens my interest in the game. The harder the challange, the more time I spend on overcomming it, and the mroe rewarding it feels.