Game Guides Archive

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whitestar19 wrote:

NERF ROOT!!

Yes, let's start nerfing. And then, when we can't nerf anymore,let's have a combat balance.Even better, let'smakeita combat upgrade!

Message Edited by Cartouche on 05-25-2005 03:55 AM

Why is it when something is effective against Jedi, then we gotta get a big nerf cry over it? First it was Last Ditch, now its Stopping Shot...whats next? KD shots? disarming shot?

If anythiing, master defender needs a total rebalance as one of those is almost impossiable to kill. How bout the whole force cloak issue also?

Dont throw stones at glass houses...

My Tuesday Tip

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Pug wrote:

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Thunderheart wrote:

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frightwig wrote:

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Thunderheart wrote:

Now in a multi-player PvP situation, it is entirely possible for four pistoleers to "chain-root" a single opponent in combat, but hopefully that person brought along friends

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Shouldn't there be a timer on this to prevent repeat/chain attempts?

This is the case for knockdown (a timer), and that's a state that can at least be recovered from.

Once rooted, we should be immune from +root+ a for a certain amount of time.

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There have been discussions about giving the root a chance to break on damage, but nothing definitive yet.

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Nooooooooooooo!!! I find using Pistols is difficult because of their close range. Having root break on damage will severaly crimp a Pistoleers style.

i.e. If a Rifleman uses Stopping Shot to root someone, it's not that big a deal because the Rifleman is probably shooting at 65m. Pistoleers don't have that additional 30m advantage when roots break.

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I wholeheartedly agree - I couldn't care less what you do for PvP, but for PvE I don't see that any change needs to be made to stopping shot. At the moment I am comfotable fighting equal CL mobs, take away my stopping shot, or having it break on damage, will mess up my playstyle in favour of the Jedi.

Personally I think the best way to deal with it is to put a 2 minute timer in for PvP so once a player has been rooted they cannot be rooted again for 2 minutes after the root has expired and leave PvE alone!

You know better yet? here you go jedi. how bout we just make it so when you walk past, anything, you are all gonna love this idea, we all simpy fall over dead. and for every death you get a cute little badge for it? with anything you want written on it in leet speak, yeah. aint that cool???

That should work. Then everyone can pretend they are yoda's just like ep3 suggests.
and dont feed me, this isn't what you want, read your own boards.
"jedi should own everything in this game." comes out of there quite often.
only ever seen one person play a jedi like they are supposed to be, the rest simply, want god mode.

While on the subject of nerfing. how about we nerf the jedi to 2. with above abilities?
Then nerf speeds on everything by cutting it to one quarter of what it is now? and that way the whole place seems bigger.
oh, and lets call that an expansion of the galaxy.
Then we put everyone in there own little instance of the galaxy and give them all the same capibilities as the jedi.

This way nobody has hurt feelings.
Then, all crafters automatically get 400 billion credits for anything they make. plus all the resources they want.
Yeah, there we go.

Ah, here we go people, then once we get all that done? You will love this also. We dont even have to move, we simply log in get everything thats in the game and everything gets put to your location and you can watch it all die, enmass, damn, this is sweet. This way... we dont have to touch the mouse/keyboard other than to simply log in . yeah, thats it.

After all i pay my 45 a month, I deserve all that right? rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrright?

LETS... NERF... EVERYTHING! ! ! Then it will be the ultimate game. yeaaa ahaa ahaa ahaa

:/

Friggen idiots...

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Thunderheart wrote:

Folks, please lets discuss the issues and not attack each other.

Thank you.

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LOL! Not attack each other?

TH, you brought this on yourself. You make a tuesday tip out of the most glaring imbalance in the game. Learn about the game alittle would you? Listen to the players' problems. Treat us with respect for Christ's sake! If you would listen to us rather than assuming you know everything, root problems like this wouldn't get so blown out of proportion.

This tuesday tips is a GLARING example of how uninformed the developers are. Tuesday Tip: How to Gank a Jedi with a 5 man BH squad. Gimme a break, this kinda BS is exactly why I quit this idiotic game. You don't listen to us because you just don't give a crap. The only reason you are listening now is because the players made you look like a fool in your own thread.

this is starting to look like the WoW forum cestpool. In that game players dont have the luxury of re-rolling their character in a weeks time or change faction. They sit on the forum all day long ranting how the devs should make their profession the 'I win' profession and everyone else should get nerfed. They even threaten to stop playing and go play another game if their demands aren't met. Sound familiar? If they nerf a profession in that game you either live with it or delete your character and start over or make a new character and just never play the other. In the past of SWG when a profession was made impotent everyone just ground up a new flavor of the day. So it looks like at the moment, atleast from the jedi perspective, theyve fallen into the category of a lesser profession. I cant say I agree since they can heal 1500 every other second to offset their lowered dps but fine. Do what everyone else does, re-roll your character to something else, or even better... you people are the ONLY players in the game that get TWO characters on one server on a SINGLE account, play that character for a while. When respec came around all my ranged toons picked up MBH not to hunt jedi but because it was the single most useful profession to stack ontop of a weapon profession to maximize my abilities. But now, lets just say I'm starting to become a believer of Sigmund Frued. "There are no accidents" Frued used to say. Maybe, subconsciously I really wanted to hunt and destroy jedi. maybe you should play WoW, there is 300,000 other players who think the exact same way.

The way I see it Jedi was and is the single most destructive element to this game. It was mistakenly promised in beta and we have had countless reactive programming since then. Jedi in a balanced combat system is a paradox. You cannot have a system where people expect jedi to be 2x, 3x or 4x more powerful than any other profession and still have balance especially when they are 10% or more of the population. If you balance jedi they become like any other player, so they whine because its not like the movie. If you make them more powerful than anyone else then the biggest jerks in the game WILL achieve it so they can constantly flaunt their Master Jerkness right in everyones faces.

As time went along in the game there were 4 critical jedi related errors to the gameplay that ruined the game from nearly infancy.

1. Jedi promised to be in the game even in alpha forums despite the game being clearly centered between ep4 and ep5. This is a continuity breaker and they knew they would have balance problems and some developers tried to get this point across to the administration. So they claimed it would be rare and mysterious. To compound the problem they thought they would make it rarer by implementing perma-death but in order to have that system they had to create a SECOND character so that lots and posessions didnt vanish upon death of that character. This resulted into PUNISHING everyone who was not a jedi. I suppose that descision maker didnt have kids. You dont give someone a reward and then stack another reward ontop of it especially if you are trying to do damage/population control. You reward people for NOT being a jedi if your goal is to keep it rare.

2. Less than 3 months into the game they have a game patch adding 'jedi holocrons' to the game as a loot drop. Suddenly this rare and mysterious system is instantly understood and an onslaught of hologrinding ensues. Group play falls to an all time low as every player begins grinding profession after profession. Christmas rolls around gives away free holocrons so that everyone is guaranteed to abandon group play and begin massive solo grinding.

3. Someone thought that extremely long grinding would be discouraging. They were wrong it only makes these players have an even greater sense of entitlement and to be honest I am sick and tired of every debate starting with the phrase "I spent all that time grinding this profession... {insert rant here}. They could have actually made jedi a regular profession and balanced it so that it was no better than any other profession. To supress the whines about how jedi do XYZ in the movies and they should be elevated a simple reply would be 'its a game everything has to balance. we arent giving smugglers 1 shot kills against all imperials either and that was in the movies aswell. right now luke is the last best hope for the rebellion so you can never be more powerful than he is and currently he cant even pull a lightsaber out of the friggen snow'.

4. Two jedi revamp come along with a new type of non blockable damage taking a jedi that was already more powerful than an average player when you calculate healing ability and suddenly making them as powerful as 4 other players in not only DPS that gets through armor but also instant healing and curing.

You are about to make a fourth if you consider enabling a nerf immediately after a CU to a special move before enough time is given for some smart person to figure out a workaround, because someone out there will find a workaround. In my opinion the rarity of jedi could have been preserved along the way with some of the following:

A. Game launches, 2 months later Jedi would be seen in public running around doing jedi stuff. This wouldnt be a player but a hired event coordinator hired by SOE bound by NDA to say nothing and pretend to be a player. Obviously a player would frantically ask how he got jedi and the coordinator would reply "I had to sign an NDA when I unlocked and if I violate it I run the risk of losing my jedi. Nobody, you or anyone else, is worth losing jedi after I put all the time I did into getting it. I am sorry but you have to figure it out on your own." This would have put an overly powerful profession squarely in the hands of coordinators who would excersize discression as to not upset the balance of game play.

B. Having failed at getting A implemented I would make it so that every player was able to have two characters on a single server per account not to exceed the 8 characters total that we have. In order to begin the journey into jedi you would have to remove all items from one of the characters because it would be shut down until a time when you surrender all jedi skills. This would reward people for not being jedi and make those wanting to be jedi have to give something up. As it stands now they give nothing up, in fact they are double rewarded with extra character and getting to be a jedi. Some would argue it's a triple reward since not only do they get the prestige of being a jedi but they also have 2x the ability of any other player in addition to the extra character.

C. When the revamp happened I would have made the force sensative carrots bigger and make them turn off the second you pick up padawan. At one time force crafting was going to actually give extra experimentation points.. what a fantastic idea especially if it goes away if you touch padawan. That would guarantee a ton of players not being jedi. The bonuses for the other professions could/should have been bigger aswell. A single tree of the surveying would let someone survey as well as a xxx4 artisan but only having to invest 4 points in it. Lets be honest hear, does someone without xxx4 artisan simply go without harvesting or does he find out where to place harvesters anyway? Give the big carrot and be done with it, thats more players unwilling to get rid of their carrot to be jedi. Some extra character running harvesters is FAR less damaging than another jedi running around dominating gameplay.

D. Given the current whining coming out of the jedi forums about dps being lower and their utter ignorance to do the math of total damage dealt when they heal themselves for 1500 every other second I would sadly revamp jedi again. If they want 1.5x the damage of a player, fine give it to them. I mean it, give them the damage they are asking for. There is a caveat. Since they were unable to understand the math of how infinite heals lets them deal less damage over a vastly greater amount of time, remove it. Take away the entire master healer part of the jedi professions. I am serious. No other player that does the damage they are whining about has the ability to heal themselves other than instant stimpacks on a 60 second timer. If they want to heal themselves they can pick up medic just like the rest of us. Give their robes some inate armor, like 25% and let the inate armor of defender bring it up to around 60-70% and let it decay away like armor does. When it decays away they can do a command at a force shrine to get a new robe like /flashspeeder and make it cost 250k. Every player has a choise to ether stack 2 combat professions togeather to increase their damage to what you are experiencing, or they can combine it with medic/doc skills and have lowered dps. Put jedi in the same choice category. They can either pick up medic skills or they can do more jedi skills to do more damage / gain more abilities. I would also give them their eye candy specials back, you could just randomize their emotes within a single special move. Saber hit could do one of 3 or 4 eye candy specials. More carrots to offset the fact that they have to live under the same healing constraints as everyone else.

Edited to fix a couple typos.

Message Edited by EEMAN on 05-25-2005 11:30 AM

Having read through this thread in its entirety now I've changed my mind.

Don't do anything to Stopping Shot, just move it to the Master Pistoleer box - this will immediately cut the amount of people using it by 2/3 (or treble the amount of Master Pistoleers, but then we don't put out as much damage as the other ranged profs anyway and have to get into danger range to deliver it).

The problem is not with the move itself, the problem lies, I think, with the victim - either they need a chance to break it by using a recovery (probably my favoured idea as you would need to spend skill points to get it rather than stealth nerfing by giving everyone a chance to resist) which should also be a tier 4 or master level ability.

So, PLEASE don't nerf the best move in the pistoleers arsenal because some players are 'griefing' others with it (personally I don't see how it can be considered griefing anyway but I won't go into that) - sort out the things that are allowing players to use this move as a grief tactic.

Leave Stopping Shot alone. All that needs to be done is revert back to a "SKILL" based system.

A personusing any special from any prof they have with any weapon is just stupid!

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EEMAN wrote:
this is starting to look like the WoW forum cestpool. In that game players dont have the luxury of re-rolling their character in a weeks time or change faction. They sit on the forum all day long ranting how the devs should make their profession the 'I win' profession and everyone else should get nerfed. They even threaten to stop playing and go play another game if their demands aren't met. Sound familiar? If they nerf a profession in that game you either live with it or delete your character and start over or make a new character and just never play the other. In the past of SWG when a profession was made impotent everyone just ground up a new flavor of the day. So it looks like at the moment, atleast from the jedi perspective, theyve fallen into the category of a lesser profession. I cant say I agree since they can heal 1500 every other second to offset their lowered dps but fine. Do what everyone else does, re-roll your character to something else, or even better... you people are the ONLY players in the game that get TWO characters on one server on a SINGLE account, play that $#@$%$#% character for a while. When respec came around all my ranged toons picked up MBH not to hunt jedi but because it was the single most useful profession to stack ontop of a weapon profession to maximize my abilities. But now, lets just say I'm starting to become a believer of Sigmund Frued. "There are no accidents" Frued used to say. Maybe, subconsciously I really wanted to hunt and destroy jedi. maybe you should play WoW, there is 300,000 other players who think the exact same way.

The way I see it Jedi was and is the single most destructive element to this game. It was mistakenly promised in beta and we have had countless reactive programming since then. Jedi in a balanced combat system is a paradox. You cannot have a system where people expect jedi to be 2x, 3x or 4x more powerful than any other profession and still have balance especially when they are 10% or more of the population. If you balance jedi they become like any other player, so they whine because its not like the movie. If you make them more powerful than anyone else then the biggest jerks in the game WILL achieve it so they can constantly flaunt their Master Jerkness right in everyones faces.

As time went along in the game there were 4 critical jedi related errors to the gameplay that ruined the game from nearly infancy.

1. Jedi promised to be in the game even in alpha forums despite the game being clearly centered between ep4 and ep5. This is a continuity breaker and they new they would have balance problems and some developers tried to get this point across to the administration. So they claimed it would be rare and mysterious. To compound the problem they thought they would make it rarer by implementing perma-death but in order to have that system they had to create a SECOND character so that lots and posessions didnt vanish upon death of that character. This resulted into PUNISHING everyone who was not a jedi. I suppose that descision maker didnt have kids. You dont give someone a reward and then stack another reward ontop of it especially if you are trying to do damage/population control. You reward people for NOT being a jedi if your goal is to keep it rare.

2. Less than 3 months into the game they have a game patch adding 'jedi holocrons' to the game as a loot drop. Suddenly this rare and mysterious system is instantly understood and an onslaught of hologrinding ensues. Group play falls to an all time low as every player begins grinding profession after profession. Christmas rolls around gives away free holocrons so that everyone is guaranteed to abandon group play and begin massive solo grinding.

3. Someone thought that extremely long grinding would be discouraging. They were wrong it only makes these diaper rashed pansies have an even greater sense of entitlement and to be honest I am sick and tired of every debate starting with the phrase "I spent all that time grinding this profession... {insert rant here}. They could have actually made jedi a regular profession and balanced it so that it was no better than any other profession. To supress the whines about how jedi do XYZ in the movies and they should be elevated a simple reply would be 'its a game everything has to balance. we arent giving smugglers 1 shot kills against all imperials either and that was in the movies aswell. right now luke is the last best hope for the rebellion so you can never be more powerful than he is and currently he cant even pull a lightsaber out of the friggen snow'.

4. Two jedi revamp come along with a new type of non blockable damage taking a jedi that was already more powerful than an average player when you calculate healing ability and suddenly making them as powerful as 4 other players in not only DPS that gets through armor but also instant healing and curing.

You are about to make a fourth if you consider enabling a nerf immediately after a CU to a special move before enough time is given for some smart person to figure out a workaround, because someone out there will find a workaround. In my opinion the rarity of jedi could have been preserved along the way with some of the following:

A. Game launchers, 2 months later Jedi would be seen in public running around doing jedi stuff. This wouldnt be a player but a hired event coordinator hired by SOE bound by NDA to say nothing and pretend to be a player. Obviously a player would frantically ask how he got jedi and the coordinator would reply "I had to sign an NDA when I unlocked and if I violate it I run the risk of losing my jedi. Nobody, you or anyone else, is worth losing jedi after I put all the time I did into getting it. I am sorry but you have to figure it out on your own." This would have put an overly powerful profession squarely in the hands of coordinators who would excersize discression as to not upset the balance of game play.

B. Having failed at getting A implemented I would make it so that every player was able to have two characters on a single server per account not to exceed the 8 characters total that we have. In order to begin the journey into jedi you would have to remove all items from one of the characters because it would be shut down until a time when you surrender all jedi skills. This would reward people for not being jedi and make those wanting to be jedi have to give something up. As it stands now they give nothing up, in fact they are double rewarded with extra character and getting to be a jedi. Some would argue a triple reward since not only do they get the prestige of being a jedi but they also have 2x the ability of any other player.

C. When the revamp happened I would have made the force sensative carrots bigger and make them turn off the second you pick up padawan. At one time force crafting was going to actually give extra experimentation points.. what a fantastic idea especially if it goes away if you touch padawan. That would guarantee a ton of players not being jedi. The bonuses for the other professions could/should have been bigger aswell. A single tree of the surveying would let someone survey as well as a xxx4 artisan but only having to invest 4 points in it. Lets be honest hear, does someone without xxx4 artisan simply go without harvesting or does he find out where to place harvesters anyway? Give the big carrot and be done with it, thats more players unwilling to get rid of their carrot to be jedi. Some extra character running harvesters is FAR less damaging than another jedi running around dominating gameplay.

D. Given the current whining coming out of the jedi forums about dps being lower and their utter ignorance to do the math of total damage dealt when they heal themselves for 1500 every other second I would sadly revamp jedi again. If they want 1.5x the damage of a player, fine give it to them. I mean it, give them the damage they are asking for. There is a caveat. Since they were unable to understand the math of how infinite heals lets them deal less damage over a vastly greater amount of time, remove it. Take away the entire master healer part of the jedi professions. I am serious. No other player that does the damage they are whining about has the ability to heal themselves other than instant stimpacks on a 60 second timer. If they want to heal themselves they can pick up medic just like the rest of us. Give their robes some inate armor, like 25% and let the inate armor of defender bring it up to around 60-70% and let it decay away like armor does. When it decays away they can do a command at a force shrine to get a new robe like /flashspeeder and make it cost 250k. Every player has a choise to ether stack 2 combat professions togeather to increase their damage to what you are experiencing, or they can combine it with medic/doc skills and have lowered dps. Put jedi in the same choice category. They can either pick up medic skills or they can do more jedi skills to do more damage / gain more abilities. I would also give them their eye candy specials back, you could just randomize their emotes within a single special move. Saber hit could do one of 3 or 4 eye candy specials. More carrots to offset the fact that they have to live under the same healing constraints as everyone else.

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