Force Sensitive Archive
Thread: Imperial Inquisition
Chroma_Key
Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:11 am
#40
I'm not avoiding anything. The light side is stronger yet slower and that is just what Lucas states.
The reason I corrected you was because sith padawan implies low skill. Darth Maul was a lord of the Sith and the fact that he beat Qui-Gon and Obi does not imply that the light side is weaker. He was the champion of the dark side. They were a jedi master and a jedi padawan. He was one of the two Lords of the Sith... not just a sith padawan.
Yoda and Dooku qualify to compare the two sidesbecause they are both grandmasters.
Everitt_Cage
Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:29 am
#41
I'm not avoiding anything. The light side is stronger yet slower and that is just what Lucas states.
You are. Your avoiding telling how in YOUR system, which you should be able to explain, an 'edge' will be given to light side jedi which justifies you making it much harder for them, and what that 'edge' is. The above statement in no way tells us anything having to do with the game or how your 'edge' will be implemented.
The reason I corrected you was because sith padawan implies low skill. Darth Maul was a lord of the Sith and the fact that he beat Qui-Gon and Obi does not imply that the light side is weaker. He was the champion of the dark side. They were a jedi master and a jedi padawan. He was one of the two Lords of the Sith... not just a sith padawan.
Firstly, Padawan may imply low skill(in some people's opinion), but apprentice(or padawan) he still was. In fact, both he and Obi-Wan were both trained from birth in the ways of their prospective Orders. The reason a Sith apprentice is better(at fighting)than a Jedi Padawan, as I explained a few posts up, is merely because Sith are trained to kill, and specificly Jedi, while Jedi are trained to be diplomats, and their fighting is geared against deflecting blaster bolts. Secondly, I never said the light side was weaker...
Message Edited by Everitt_Cage on 01-15-2005 10:35 AM
Minic
Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:31 am
#42
other than the dependence on other players in the activity of becoming a jedi I like your idea and find it a lot more entertaining...
why do i not like having people involved? this scenario comes to mind:
Inquisitors whoring themselves out:
On auction: "Will Let you be jedi (come arrest you) for credits! Current bid: 3 mil! BO: 10 mil!"
granted as an inquisitor in ur new system i wouldnt mind at all; but i just dont think that will um be a good thing... having people whore themselves out i mean. =p
Chroma_Key
Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:44 am
#43
Minic wrote:
On auction: "Will Let you be jedi (come arrest you) for credits! Current bid: 3 mil! BO: 10 mil!"
Yes this would happen but only in case an Inquisitor would not wish to ascend in the Order.
Like Han_Solo_67 said:
Player sponosring would lead to a whole new level of elite guild exclusion and we don't want you to be Jedi griefing.
And my reply:
That will not happen because an inquisitor's ascension in his Order will depend on how many force sensitives he has arrested. In other words, his friends will not be enough if he wished to reach the highest possible rank.
Everitt_Cage
Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:00 pm
#44
Do you have something personal with me man?
Not at all
Now wait a minute, once you accuse me of avoiding to explain why I think the light sideshould have an edgeand then you accuse me of avoiding to describe the edge...What is the big deal, to give you numbers of force pools or game mechanics? Those are specific details that are worked out after the main concept is approved. I amdescribing an idea here.
You have said Light Jedi should have an edge this is what I have asked regarding that edge, EACH in a different post:
"An edge? Do you mean in fighting? If so, then no. The 'bad guys' of the movies, the people who use the dark side of the force do seem to be better fighters. (Maul vs. Obi-wan and Qui-Gon, Dooku vs. Obi-Wan and Anakin, Anakin vs. Obi-wan in ep III, Vader vs. Obi-Wan in IV, Vader vs. Luke in ep V, Emperor vs. Luke in ep VI) Now ,the bad guys DID wind up losing, but thats because no matter WHAT they did, they couldnt stop the phrophecy from being fulfilled. In this game though, the only real edge people can have is in a fighting aspect, so no, Jedi were not better fighters than Dark Jedi from a canon point of view"
"But if the edge you speak of(which is your justification for making it harder to become a light Jedi) is NOT fighting, then I ask you again, as you havent answered yet, what is it?"
"And once again, you have avoided explaining the reason(the supposed "edge") a light Jedi will have which justifies making their path much harder."
"You are. Your avoiding telling how in YOUR system, which you should be able to explain, an 'edge' will be given to light side jedi which justifies you making it much harder for them, and what that 'edge' is. The above statement in no way tells us anything having to do with the game or how your 'edge' will be implemented."
Cant you see I'm just trying to get SOME kind of answer out of you other than "The light side is stronger yet slower and that is just what Lucas states." as to what this edge is? I'm not asking for "numbers of force pools or game mechanics" man, I'm simply trying to get SOME kind of description out of you as to WHAT actual in game advantages a Light Jedi will have in exchange for their harder path to Jedi according to your system. Is it in fighting? If so, what is your basis for this? In the movies the users of the dark side are better fighters. If its NOT in fighting, as I've stated before, what POSSIBLE edge could they have which really justifies making their path so much harder than those of dark Jedi?
Message Edited by Everitt_Cage on 01-15-2005 11:03 AM
Chroma_Key
Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:34 pm
#45
Since light jedi and dark jedi compete only in PVP then the "edge" doesn't have too many options of what form it should take.
Everitt_Cage
Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:44 pm
#46
Since light jedi and dark jedi compete only in PVP then the "edge" doesn't have too many options of what form it should take.
"Is it in fighting? If so, what is your basis for this? In the movies the users of theDARK SIDE(not the light)are better fighters. If its NOT in fighting, as I've stated before, what POSSIBLE edge could they have which really justifies(makes it worth it)making their path so much harder than those of dark Jedi?"
And, is there any reason you refuse to write more than 1 sentence about this edge Light Jedi will have?
Message Edited by Everitt_Cage on 01-15-2005 11:47 AM
Chroma_Key
Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:08 pm
#47
In all of the above examples it was light jedi vs the Lords of the Sith, not any dark jedi. Pretty unequal matches. Same as if Mace was to face any group of dark jedi. By the way in the comics he beat up Asajj Ventress pretty easily.
My system is not unfair. Light siders have a harder time but ultimately theyare be rewarded for it. Maybe it is unfair to darksiders, I will have to think about that...
Also the definition of what is canon or not does not mean that non canon stuff don't maketheir way into the game or are not valid. So yes the Light Side is stronger. It says so in Star Wars D20! Unless the Emperor kicks Yoda's behind in Ep 3 then Lucas does not deny it.
Everitt_Cage
Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:36 pm
#48
Ah well. Its my opinion that the system is unfair. Its nothing against you personaly, and the story is an interesting one. I've given tons of examples and facts to support everything I've said, anyone who reads my postswill see,but it gets to a point where I repeat myself, so its time to move on. I dont think youve given enough explanation of what kind of 'edge' a light jedi will have in fighting to justify your system of them being hunted by Inquisitors which will almost surely kill them if they dont join the Empire(while the Imperials dont have to worry about anyone hunting them in this manner, other than the BHs which hunt ANYONE who is a Jedi). And even if they have a slight advantage, I'm not sure it would make up for the hell they would have to go through when first trying to become Jedi. But as I said, Fare well, 
***added***
Shortly after posting I thought of somthing I thought was important enough to go back and add. A LARGE problem with your propossed system is that it will eliminate BH hunting Dark Jedi(which, in combination w/ the fact that they dont have to be hunted by Inquisitors like Light Jedi) makes the system EXTREMLY unfair.
But "Why wouldnt BHs be hunting Dark Jedi under my new system?", you ask? Its really quite simple. If a BH goes to the terminal and looks at the Jedi missions you have missions that are being issued BY THE EMPIRE. If, as your new system has it, the Dark Jedi are being trained BY and with the PERMISSION of the Empire, they certainly would not turn around and put bounties on their dark Jedi that they are training. They would still put them out on Light Jedi, and we suddenly have a very unfair system. As it is, NO Jedi, are being trained or endorsed by the Empire, so it makes sense for the bounties they put out to be on ALL Jedi, light and dark. So, it looks like if you want to revamp the Jedi system with your method, your also going to have to revamp the BH system 
Message Edited by Everitt_Cage on 01-15-2005 02:02 PM
Chroma_Key
Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:53 pm
#49
Godspeed Everitt_Cage, I enjoyed our talk very much!
I suggest to all the rest to have a look at the linked poston Everitt's signature!
Chroma_Key
Sun Jan 16, 2005 1:08 am
#50
Everitt_Cage wrote:
is there any reason you refuse to write more than 1 sentence about this edge Light Jedi will have?
No special reason other than I have not worked it out. I am just suggesting finished light templates should have an edge in PVP vs finished dark templates.
If the light template will be more of a challenge to acquire then average light guys will still get beat up by average dark guys. I disagree that dark jedi are better fighters guaranteed. The examples that you mention (Maul vs Qui and Obi, Vader vs Luke, Dooku vs Obi and Ani) prove nothing. Why don't you mention Yoda and Dooku or comment my references to that example?
Are you familiar with Star Wars D20? Don't tell me it's not canon and so you don't accept it.SWG accepts EU stuff. In any case in that system whenever a force sensitive calls upon the Force he gains bonus dice to his action. The dark side provides more bonuses at the lower levels but after a certain level and beyond the light side gives more.
Since you insist on me clarifying the edgemy first impression would be, light jedi have a significantbonus to their force pools and the enhancer and healer treesand dark jedi in their lightsaber and powers trees. But then again I only know about jedi skills by reading and not by experience so it's not my place to decide how exactlythe edge should be realized.
Everitt_Cage
Sun Jan 16, 2005 1:33 am
#51
If the light template will be more of a challenge to acquire then average light guys will still get beat up by average dark guys. I disagree that dark jedi are better fighters guaranteed. The examples that you mention (Maul vs Qui and Obi, Vader vs Luke, Dooku vs Obi and Ani) prove nothing. Why don't you mention Yoda and Dooku or comment my references to that example?
Would you really like me to list all the fights from the movies to see which are better? I'm not ignoring the Yoda fight, I didnt say that NO light side Jedi can beat a dark force user, but I said that in the movies that Dark force users are better fighters than the Jedi. Examples(here is every light side vs dark side fight):
Episode I
Darth Maul vs. Qui-Gon: The depiction was that Maul controlled the fight. The description of the fight in the Novel(which is canon) is that Qui-Gon escaped just in time. Verdict: Dark side wins.
Darth Maul vs. Qui-Gon and Obi-wan: The depiction in the movie was that Maul was not only able to deal with two attackers at once, but also able toget rid of one of them(Obi-Wan getting knocked of walkway). While no one dies in the Maul vs. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan fight, Maul is depicted as the more skilled fighter. Verdict: Dark Side wins
Darth Maul vs. Qui-Gon pt2: Maul kills Qui-gon, Maul Obvioulsy wins. Verdict: Dark Side wins
Darth Maul vs. Obi-Wan: Obi-Wan kills Maul, Obi-Wan obviously wins. Verdict: Light Side wins
Episode II
Obi-Wan vs. Dooku: Dooku is shown toying w/ Obi-Wan, the skill is greatly mismatched. Dooku takes Obi-Wan down. Verdict: Dark Side wins.
Anakin vs. Dooku: Anakin fairs slightly better than Obi-Wan, but Dooku is still much too powerful for him. Dooku takes Anakin down. Verdict: Dark Side wins.
Yoda vs. Dooku: Both are powerful Masters, yet Yoda is more powerful and forces Dooku to flee. Light Side wins
Episode IV
Obi-Wan vs. Vader: The fight ends w/ Vader striking Obi-Wan down. Whether Obi-Wan let it happen or not, he certainly cannot be awarded the victory, so it belongs to Vader. Dark Side wins
Episode V
Vader vs Luke: Luke looses a hand, forced to 'escape'. Dark Side wins
Episode VI
Vader vs Luke: Luke's anger takes over, bringing him very close to the dark side. The light side technically wins, but only by Luke giving in to his anger. Its a muddled victory, but its for the light side.
Emperor vs. Luke: Nothing to say here. Dark Side wins.
Emperor vs Vader? Was this a fight? I'm not sure. Unlike the Luke vs Emperor fight, Luke confronted palpatine, challenging him almost. This wasnt the case with palpatine and Vader, its hard to call it a fight. I'm showing no bias attitude to support my views, merely being realistic.
Conclusion? In the total 11 canon fights between users of the dark side and users of the light side, the users of the dark side won 8 of them, the users of the light side won 3. I now, once again, make my original statement that in the movies, the users of the dark side are better fighters. So what will the justification, or reason be for making Light Jedi in the game have the edge in combat?
Are you familiar with Star Wars D20? Don't tell me it's not canon and so you don't accept it.SWG accepts EU stuff. In any case in that system whenever a force sensitive calls upon the Force he gains bonus dice to his action. The dark side provides more bonuses at the lower levels but after a certain level and beyond the light side gives more.
I'M not telling you its not canon, theSW Insider #23 is:
"'Gospel', or canon as we refer to it, includes only the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the film novelizations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers."
What I'd like to say in closing is that I dont support any system in which one side of the force is stronger or more powerful than the other. Yoda said the Dark side wasnt more powerful than the light side, but that DIDNT mean he said the light side was more powerful than the dark either. Logicaly, the light and dark sides of the force arent different things. There is only The Force, and the WAY people use it can be in a 'light'(good) way, or a 'dark'(bad way). But its not as if the force were stronger than ITSELF. Both sides should be equally powerful, logicaly. As I've stated many times before, having ANY PC jedi in the game is wrong according the the Canon SW story, so if we're going to, why use a system thats unfair, whether by making the path to the light side much harder than the path to the dark, or by making Light Knights stronger than Dark ones once that rank is achieved.
Message Edited by Everitt_Cage on 01-15-2005 12:55 PM
Gellay
Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:31 am
#52
To be honest, although i think Everitt_Cage is right in some logical keypoints, i more like Chroma_Key's idea - and i think the discuaaion leads to a wrong direction because of Everitt_Cage's contra's.
The storyline is broken, we all now it.
There are too many jedis, we all know it.
The Sith are no Dark Jedis, we all know it.
Blablabla, we all know it.
but fact is:
- grinding FS-XP in a strange village with completely no content (story) is not only boring, it's even ridiculous
- the starwarsy feeling is gone, and it will never be able to get the feeling in this game like we got when watching the movies (or reading the books), bet we (errmmm, or better SOE *cough*) could try to make it a bit mor "starwarsier", even if it doesnt fit completely into sense of movies or books.
So IMO thx much Chroma_Key, i like your idea, any idea that is supposed to get some content or deeper atmosphear into the game will get my /*sign* !
and now my 2 cents:
- as i like the idea that the dark side is the easy path, and to involve this in the game, one of the most important (and at the end most discussed) points is about the "edge" the light side will get.
so why not make it like (*plz start flaming me now!*) in other games like "jedi knight" ? just give dark jedis other force-powers as light jedis.
as i understand (and i may be naive here) the light side is kinda more defensive then dark side, so light side could get better (new skills, or at least a bonus, or gaining the experience easier for) healung-skills, and same at dark side for 'dirty' fighting-skills (ever seen joda do the throat-mangling-trick with someone?)...
- if you are afraid of "10 million credits and i will make you a dark jedi" (wich i am also afraid of), why not listen to the philosophy of the jedi about "no private posessions" (anakin told amidala on their flight back to naboo) - for what does a jedi need money ? he doesnt need armor or any weapons, so just cap his max available money to... lets say 100.000 cr., and there you have your roleplay and your "starwarsy" feeling...
now you all guys can correct me, flame me, or whatever - this is all just about a couple of ideas not thought to an end, but at least it is motivated. to think it all to an end is the job of SOE, they get the money, so they should do the work
The storyline is broken, we all now it.
There are too many jedis, we all know it.
The Sith are no Dark Jedis, we all know it.
Blablabla, we all know it.
but fact is:
- grinding FS-XP in a strange village with completely no content (story) is not only boring, it's even ridiculous
- the starwarsy feeling is gone, and it will never be able to get the feeling in this game like we got when watching the movies (or reading the books), bet we (errmmm, or better SOE *cough*) could try to make it a bit mor "starwarsier", even if it doesnt fit completely into sense of movies or books.
So IMO thx much Chroma_Key, i like your idea, any idea that is supposed to get some content or deeper atmosphear into the game will get my /*sign* !
and now my 2 cents:
- as i like the idea that the dark side is the easy path, and to involve this in the game, one of the most important (and at the end most discussed) points is about the "edge" the light side will get.
so why not make it like (*plz start flaming me now!*) in other games like "jedi knight" ? just give dark jedis other force-powers as light jedis.
as i understand (and i may be naive here) the light side is kinda more defensive then dark side, so light side could get better (new skills, or at least a bonus, or gaining the experience easier for) healung-skills, and same at dark side for 'dirty' fighting-skills (ever seen joda do the throat-mangling-trick with someone?)...
- if you are afraid of "10 million credits and i will make you a dark jedi" (wich i am also afraid of), why not listen to the philosophy of the jedi about "no private posessions" (anakin told amidala on their flight back to naboo) - for what does a jedi need money ? he doesnt need armor or any weapons, so just cap his max available money to... lets say 100.000 cr., and there you have your roleplay and your "starwarsy" feeling...
now you all guys can correct me, flame me, or whatever - this is all just about a couple of ideas not thought to an end, but at least it is motivated. to think it all to an end is the job of SOE, they get the money, so they should do the work