Force Sensitive Archive
Thread: The Village is flawed
TheRealRedi
Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:44 am
#27
quote:
If Yoda knew he and Ben survived, why would he make a statement saying that NO other jedi could have possibly survived either unless he knew what he was talking about.
When Yoda said that, in his mind he was technically right. For all Yodas lovable wrinkles, and mad fighting skills when he was a nipper, i do get the feeling there was very much of a "old-boys-club" about the Jedi council and students, not only from the EU, but from the new films also. For Yoda to state "Then, the last of the Jedi shall you be" is riddled with inconsitency and non-concrete fact. For a start, the likely-hood of Luke ever having a kid must've crossed the little green fellas mind - and if he knew about Leia (which he obviously did) then what were the chances she'd have a sprog or three?
Yoda was a defeatest - everything he told Luke was basically a worst case scenario, and seeing as he said "The future is unclear" then hes speaking only from opinion as the force hasnt offered him any devine beta-test of the next few millenia...
Basically, i would guess when he said there would be no more Jed's then he was referring to no more academy trained, light preaching Jedi of the old republic, NOT that there was guaranteed not one Jedi left bar Luke. I get the feeling Mr Beard went for drama over precise fact with the conversation between Master n Student in that little cave 
forgiven though 
Mafuw wrote:
Edit : BTW, it's with Thrawn that Luke wonders how Yoda could stay hidden, because he wonders how joruus could stay hidden too
ta
sexwax
Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:38 am
#28
This is a good point to me. it would of course go under the heading 'more content'. I have thought that the grouping between two Jedis and the canceling of the visibilty is a good idea. Having the same two people on at the same time would be difficult in reality, but maybe being able to select it as a Jedi function of a two person group could work. I like it. As it is, my best friend and I are working through FS now with the sole purpose of runing around causing havok together. Visibilty or not.
Nohoah wrote:
Okay so I'm off of that tanget. My wife and I watched the Star Wars movies over the weekend, about 5 minutes into Episode I my wife asks. "So in the game, when you get to Jedi Padawan do you have to locate a "Master" to follow you around in the game and protect you and such until you go through the Knight Trials?"
I have always thought this would be a great idea andI think it would make the whole 'Star Wars Immerision' much much better. I don't know how hard it would be to implement from a developer stand point, but I hope to see one day where a Initinite needs to locate a Jedi Knight or higher, once the 'Master' was selected the two of you would not cause visibility to each other - many other things can come from this as well.
Nohoah
demolition32
Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:52 am
#29
See, heres the problem. It seems that Jedi MIGHT be able to hide their presence, but its not a fact. Its never been stated in the movies. In fact, The emperor and Vader sensed Luke(who apparently wasnt able to do so...)
"There is a great disturbance in the force."
"I have felt it also, Master"
"We have a new enemy. Luke Skywalker..."
"We have a new enemy. Luke Skywalker..."
Now, we know that the SITH can hide their presence from the Jedi, but thats only because the dark side of the force can cloud the light like a shroud, making it hard to 'see' the truth. Light, however, doesnt 'cloud' darkness, so like I said, its not certain if Jedi can hide theirselves in the force like Sith can. Its quite possible that, like Luke, the Emperor and Vader knew of Obi-Wan and Yoda's existence, but were merely not able to find their location(after all, the galaxy is a big place...)
At the time i was referring to about corran he was a Jedi Knight, trained in the arts
at this time you refer to luke he was still in training
big difference
Eh. These Jedi's very existence, according to the movies, is an error, so theres no explanation for why they turn anyone away. Remember, GL wrote the story and that means he wrote the line that Yoda said about Luke being the last Jedi. Either he's right about how his own story goes(how could he not be?) or the EU writers are right in saying he was wrong by writing about the existence of other Jedi during this time which blatently contradicts Yoda. Yoda isnt the kind of person not to know what he's talking about, and for that matter neither is GL when it comes to his story. If Yoda knew he and Ben survived, why would he make a statement saying that NO other jedi could have possibly survived either unless he knew what he was talking about.If we obviously are going to have an error in the story, these Jedi existing in this time period, why not have a system that makes sense: being trained by real Jedi or dark Jedi instead of force sensitive refugees who train rebels and imperials alike(even though imperials are their enemies)?
if you go past the movies Luke found countless FS people after the empire falls
they are there, they arent trained
but yes i do agree that loads of Jedi Knights running around theed during this time period is a blatant contridiction with the movies and SW continuim(sp?)
JediMalek
Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:16 am
#30
Hey real i heard a rumor some devs are wanting to make Darth Vader a live npc, in which case hed kill a lot of jedi...
TheRealRedi
Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:15 am
#31
JediMalek wrote:
Hey real i heard a rumor some devs are wanting to make Darth Vader a live npc, in which case hed kill a lot of jedi...
why not? Personally, i think that'd be pretty awesome. Not to have him stalking 24/7, but to have him as a random visitor to places, or to hunt a particularly high ranking jedi. Why not ifa jedi spends more than 2 weeks on a BH mission terminal, without anyone collecting said bounty, Vader is informed of the Jedis existence, and last known whereabouts, then he starts stalking that Jedi.
If i was a Jedi, to find out im that notorious at avoiding/killing BH's Vader himself is out looking for me, i'd be both terrified and well chuffed!
Same should go for most of the other NPC's from the filmsand EU- Wedge, Han & Chewie, Talon Karrde, threepio and R2 (seeing as the escape pods on the floor already, its funny how i dont recall them heading over to corellia and chilling out at a rebel base for ages, with Wedge, Leia, et al...)
And on that note, why not have Boba Fett, Dengar, IG88 etc wandering about looking for jedi too?
Actually, the whole static key-NPCs thing really gets to me - they should at least APPEAR to have some kind of use, other than just giving missions - JTL's out, so wheres the Falcons random appearance in system?
Message Edited by TheRealRedi on 01-18-2005 02:17 PM
Everitt_Cage
Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:40 am
#32
I'd like to go aheadand lay this on the table to all the people talking about how the books after the movies say thereWERE moreJedi during this time period than the movies said.Heresa quote from the SW Insider #23:
"'Gospel', or canon as we refer to it, includes only the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the film novelizations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers."
Canon(the SW movies and their novelizations) is SW FACT. EU is not. EU is only 'approved' by Lucas in that it has the SW name on it. If every storyline was approved by his directly then the above quote would have said canon included these too. It doesnt. If you want to argue FACTS(according to SW), there were NO OTHER JEDI but Luke at the time of Yoda's death. Your not arguing with me here, your arguing with GL. The EU is many different inventions by OTHER writers, who are not GL, and whose stories are not considered fact in the SW universe, merely possibilities.
EU stories have even contradicted each other. There have been more than one story explaining Boba Fett's origin, and then ep II came out and , whoops, their wrong. So If you want to tell me there were Jedi other than Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Luke during the classic trilogy in the EU, of course I know that. But I have never mentioned the EU when I said there werent. As far as star wars FACT/GOSPEL/CANON goes, there were not.
The point of all this: The village currently makes no sense. They are enemies of the Empire, they train Imperials who they only make more powerful and add to their enemies strength. NO story for why we have Jedi in the game will be right according to the movies, so people need to stop trying to justify Jedi's existence and just accept a story that makes sense. What makes sense, is if there are Jedi and Dark Jedi enclaves set up, after you become glowy and kill a Sith shadow, get a wp to the enclave(depending on your faction). Get there, they tell you they have sensed you and begin your training, rather than being trained by FS refugees.
Message Edited by Everitt_Cage on 01-18-2005 07:44 AM
JediMalek
Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:59 am
#33
Everitt i aplaud your argument. and ive said it many times to my friends that to make sense of jedi existing they need to prigress the story to after episode 6 to where luke is training jedi. And realredi i would be happy if vader killed jedi too.
demolition32
Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:08 pm
#34
i do agree we shouldn't have jedi on such a massive scale
and i think if SOE perged all the ebay jedi we'd prob have maybe 5-6 jedi left, alot more realistic too
and yes i would love to see vader runing around killing jedi
as for moving the story ahead to after ep 6 its a good idea
just wanna see the game jump severally years one day, would be funny 
TheRealRedi
Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:31 am
#35
Everitt_Cage wrote:
I'd like to go aheadand lay this on the table to all the people talking about how the books after the movies say thereWERE moreJedi during this time period than the movies said.Heresa quote from the SW Insider #23:
"'Gospel', or canon as we refer to it, includes only the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the film novelizations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers."
Canon(the SW movies and their novelizations) is SW FACT. EU is not. EU is only 'approved' by Lucas in that it has the SW name on it. If every storyline was approved by his directly then the above quote would have said canon included these too. It doesnt. If you want to argue FACTS(according to SW), there were NO OTHER JEDI but Luke at the time of Yoda's death. Your not arguing with me here, your arguing with GL. The EU is many different inventions by OTHER writers, who are not GL, and whose stories are not considered fact in the SW universe, merely possibilities.
EU stories have even contradicted each other. There have been more than one story explaining Boba Fett's origin, and then ep II came out and , whoops, their wrong. So If you want to tell me there were Jedi other than Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Luke during the classic trilogy in the EU, of course I know that. But I have never mentioned the EU when I said there werent. As far as star wars FACT/GOSPEL/CANON goes, there were not.
dude... erm... <whispers> none of its really real haha!
It stands to reason, even in the films most of what Yoda said was just guess work from the evidence - he said they're were no more Jedi, conveniently not counting Leia, or any off-spring these folks might have. Force Sensitive beings and races are all over the shop from the day dirt was invented in the SW uni, and these are flatly ignored in the films, to save complications of reference from people like us 
Equally, Sith are ignored, as are un-knowing force wielders, like MJ. Anyone who is FS can potentially become either a Jedi ora Sith. The only reason i can see for Yoda's statement of the end of the Jedi would be referring to the end of a structured, organised, heirachical Jedi Council, where masters taught padawans etc, NOT the end of the Jedi as a whole - if that were true, then that would mean the end of the light, darkness would overcome it, and eventually consume it. Without Light, there is no Dark, so the Force is moot. If "The last of the Jedi" Luke was to be, then Yoda was in essence predicting the end of the Force.
And look at that, all before 10.30 am
Zhentarim
Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:48 am
#36
As said before, the EU is *not* Star Wars canon in any way but they should not be deemed as unworthy as sources for SW knowledge.
First off, SWG is EU - nothing in this game adheres to canon except some of the gear people wear, the ships and some of the characters (which is indeed doubtful - you can go slap/kiss/snog with the Emperor without getting punished which means hein realitymust be the Emperors retarded clone). Just the fact that Melee > Blasters should really give it away.
Secondly, the people from the village havelittle way of knowing whether people are Imperial, Rebel or Neutral since the only that ever leaves the village is the Old Man - Besidesthey need all the help they can get to rebuild and defend their home from the Sith Shadow Pirates and avoid the attention of Darth Vader and the Emperor.
Now, imagine the following scenario:
"An Imperial officer has been noted as being sensitive to the force and has been invited to the village - He travels there to confirm the existence of the place and meets Rohak and the other people living there. They teach him about the Force, how it affects all things and how he can learn to use it. As most Imperial officers this young fella' is power hungry so he probably thinks if he grows more powerful using the force thenhe'll have an advantage once he gets back to serving his *beloved* Empire. He trains in various force diciplines like combat prowess and becomes more and more attuned with the force. Would he report the location of the village to the Emperor or Darth Vader? Doing so would surely seal his own fate and he'd suffer death at the hands of either the Dark Lords themselves or by the hand of the Imperial Executoiner squads."
I don't think any Imperial wishing to persue the art of the Force would ever give away the location of the only people that can help him develop into what possibly could be the Emperors nextright hand man - If the Emperor found someone powerful enough to beat Darth Vader, Ihave nodoubt he'd sacrifice the life of Vader to get an even more powerful pupil. The reason he keeps Vader as his "pet Dark Jedi" is probably because he can control him for the time being and he's the most powerful being in the Force. (Remember Darth Vader is only in his fifties or sixties around the time of ROTJ - As time would pass he could probably prolong his life as he grew more powerful until he surpasses the Emperor in the ways of the Force. Think the only reason Vader didn't kill the Emperor and take on the title as Emperor himself was the fact that he still adehered to the ancient Jedi ways, albeit in a distorted fashion and the fact that the Emperor was older and this moretrained in the ways of the Force)
As for Rebels training at the Village it's just as confusing as Imperials training there. The Rebels are "terrorists" in the eyes of the Empire and if they were to be tracked to the Village it would cause as much harm as direct Imperial attention.
One thing I don't understand is the fact that anyone can be overt there at all - the Village mist barrier should effectively block out any overt player if it was to keep scenario credibility. It would make sense that you had to train at the Jedi Enclaves once you reach Jedi padawan but I think the Village is a good way of "intiating" people into the way of the Force.
As for a Master/Pupil relationship I think it would strenghten the social aspect of "Jedihood" as you would have someone that you probably already knew follow you around and help you out. Visibility should of course not apply to the Master and Pupil as it wouldn't make sense at all - furthermore being grouped with your master and having her within a group mission reward radius should yeild an XP bonus to the training Jedi for being "taught" by her master. Secondly, a Jedi training a less powerful Jedi should aquire "Jedi Master" Xp the way a squad leader gains hisXP which could be used for indirect enhancements regarding training other Jedi - This would make less powerful Jedi seek out the more adept one for faster and more effecient training methods.
I could go on about this issue forever...
sexwax
Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:43 am
#37
TheRealRedi wrote:
dude... erm... none of its really real
No way. You said it before I got a chance to.
AceMalanan
Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:00 pm
#38
Out of curiosity to you EU readers out there:
The only examples we have from the movies of a Jedi father having children did in fact yield Force sensitive children.
Are there any occurences where the known father and mother were NOT Force sensitive at all... but had a Force sensitive child? (excluding Anikin being conceived of the Force through his mother alone)
I suppose this would be an equivalent of Harry Potter's muggle-born witches/wizards.
-Ace
Message Edited by AceMalanan on 01-23-2005 04:01 PM
Message Edited by AceMalanan on 01-23-2005 04:02 PM
TheRealRedi
Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:14 am
#39
I DONT KNOW, HOW ABOUT WE ALL MAKE OUR TEXT BIGGER, THEN WE CAN DISCUSS IT...
Nuff with the shouting, mate!!!