Force Sensitive Archive
Thread: Imperial Inquisition
Chroma_Key
Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:53 am
#14
Replying to Everitt_Cage.
I am familiar withDarth Bane'srule of the two, yet this rule is about Sith, not their Dark Jedi servants. This is not my opinion, it is official. If you ask me I agree that if there should be 2 sith then there should be no more dark siders of any kind.
Also, the Imperial Inquisition is not MY conception. It appears in the Expanded Universe and that's exactly how it works. Yes, Vader trained their leader and he inturn the rest.
Of course you say let's stick with the movies. The rule of two is Expanded Universe originated as well, as is Admiral Thrawn in the Emperor's Retreat. Also if we do stay with the movies then no players should become jedi!
And if we do stay with the movies, the 2 sith did try to recruit a 3rd one too. Even though in the end the Emperor planned to have Vader killed, which IMO did because Vader had plans to usurp the Emperor. There wasn't any rule of 2 when the movies were made.
My suggestion has only one point that contradicts with the continuity. Only humans were accepted in the Imperial Inquisition, yet I say if there are jedi in the Rebellion Era, then let all species join the Inquisition, as is the case with the Empire. How many imperial twi'leks or wookies did we see in the movies??
P.S. I agree with your thinking, the Emperor wouldn't train potential usurpers, but he did and it's not our place to decide what goes or not from the Expanded Universe. If this were our D20 story then we would but now it is an official product of Lucasarts.Do you know what else doesn't make sense? Vader tempting Luke to join him and rule the galaxy as father and son and then when Luke attempts to kill the Emperor, him blocking the strike...
If I were the Emperor I wouldn't startan Imperial Inquisitionbut I'm glad Palpatine did becausethis orderis one of my favorite concepts of the Rebellion Era!!!
Message Edited by Chroma_Key on 01-13-2005 04:03 PM
Everitt_Cage
Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:14 am
#15
I am familiar withDarth Bane'srule of the two, yet this rule is about Sith, not their Dark Jedi servants.
I never said the rule said there couldnt be dark jedi as well as two sith, but what I said is having dark jedi around(willfully) violates the IDEA of the "Only Two" rule, as that rule was created for the two sith's protection, and having powerful dark jedi knights running around would be just as dangerous to the two sith's existance as having more sith.
This is not my opinion, it is official.
"Official", yet not canon(SW Fact). The Expanded Universe is official in that it has the SW name and logo, but Canon is only the movies and their novelizations(as stated by GL and company). And the interesting thing is, the EU created the idea of dark jedi before ep I came out, and the "only two" sith rule was made known. But now that we know the rule exists, and we know the meaning behind the rule(protection), we see how dark jedi would also be a danger the sith would not create for themselves.
Also, the Imperial Inquisition is not MY conception. It appears in the Expanded Universe and that's exactly how it works. Yes, Vader trained their leader and he inturn the rest.
Once again, I've already said my peice about canon(SW 'gospel' or fact)and EU. I've even found a quote from the SW Insider #23:
"'Gospel', or canon as we refer to it, includes only the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the film novelizations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers."
Of course you say let's stick with the movies. The rule of two is Expanded Universe originated as well, as is Admiral Thrawn in the Emperor's Retreat. Also if we do stay with the movies then no players should become jedi!
I Never denied that fact. The game blatenly disregards Yoda's statment to Luke that after he died(Yoda), Luke would be that LAST of the Jedi. But that wouldnt be very fun gaming would it?(At least thats what SOE thinks) And anyway, if I could I would tell them as much, but there isnt a forum for that, and this thread is about your proposed setup, not theirs.
And if we do stay with the movies, the 2 sith did try to recruit a 3rd one too. Even though in the end the Emperor planned to have Vader killed, which IMO did because Vader had plans to usurp the Emperor. There wasn't any rule of 2 when the movies were made.
Ah, but this doesnt contradict the rule of two. Why? If, in fact, Vader recruited Luke to destroy the Emperor, then Vader would have become the Master, and Luke the apprentice. Luke wouldnt have been a Sith UNTIL he became an apprentice, and Vader couldnt take an apprentice until he became the master. The same applied for when Sidious told Luke to destroy Vader. Luke couldnt have become the apprentice until AFTER Vader was dead. And what about when Dooku asked Obi-Wan to join him? Once again, Dooku would have become the Master(had this happened), and Obi-Wan the apprentice. There would NEVER be more than two sith at a time, and none of this breaks the rule.
P.S. I agree with your thinking, the Emperor wouldn't train potential usurpers, but he did and it's not our place to decide what goes or not from the Expanded Universe.
I wontkeep repeating myself about canon and EU. This game is based on the movies, correct?(supposedly). So its based on canon, as thats whatthe movies are, and not EU.
If this were our D20 story then we would but now it is an official product of Lucasarts.Do you know what else doesn't make sense? Vader tempting Luke to join him and rule the galaxy as father and son and then when Luke attempts to kill the Emperor, him blocking the strike...
Your right, that doesnt make sense, if Vader had actualy been sincere in his asking Luke to join him. It also doesnt make sense why(if Vader had been sincere), it took him so long to decide to throw the emperor over the rail when he was seeing Luke being shocked. Since neither of those DO make sense, it possible Vader might have been saying whatever he could to seduce Luke to the dark side(offering him power beyond his wildest dreams), and not have actualy WANTED to overthrow his master. Like I said, only a possibility.
If I were the Emperor I wouldn't startan Imperial Inquisitionbut I'm glad Palpatine did becausethis orderis one of my favorite concepts of the Rebellion Era!!!
The fact that palpatine did is not GL idea, or even SW fact or gospel, as its not canon. Its the invention of EU writers, and I'm not saying its a bad one, just pointing the fact out.
Chroma_Key
Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:50 am
#16
Replying to Everitt_Cage.
So your point is that you would not like to see my idea happen because you consider the Imperial Inquisition's concept weak, right? Wouldn't you think that it would be fun to roleplay an Inquisitor and hunt Force Sensitives all across the galaxy?
Also what do you think of Asajj Ventress?
Everitt_Cage
Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:14 am
#17
So your point is that you would not like to see my idea happen because you consider the Imperial Inquisition's concept weak, right?
No, not 'weak' at all. I'm only pointing out that ANY way we try to explain how there are more than two jedi during this time period will not make sense. If we're talking about light jedi, it doesnt make sense because Yoda told Luke that Luke would be that LAST Jedi after he died. If we're talking about dark jedi, it doesnt make sense because, while dark jedi and sith are not the same thing, If palpatine wouldnt train more sith(because of the rule), the same principal really applies to training other powerful users of the dark side of the force, because of the principal behind the rule.
Wouldn't you think that it would be fun to roleplay an Inquisitor and hunt Force Sensitives all across the galaxy?
If I were an Imperial, sure! However, you remove part of the roleplaying aspect of it all, and the ability to completly create own character if you make it where you have you CHOICE but to start down the dark path before you have the chance to turn to the light. Is it fair to make a rebel have to start out as a dark force user before given the chance to 'break away' from the dark side of the force,as your idea explains? Also, its really the other way around. In the movies(or any books I've read) I've never heard of somone who starts out using the dark side and THEN turns to the light. Anakin started light, turned dark, then returned to the light. Even then though, he's supposed to be the exception to the rule. Yoda told Luke that oncesomone starts down the dark path it would forever dominatetheir destiny(or somthing like that)
Also what do you think of Asajj Ventress?
Oh, I think she's a cool character 
So, Like I said above, my comments have nothing do with you personaly, and I'm not even saying this whole proposition is a bad idea, I'm just saying its only replacing one way of becomming a jedi, which is flawed by SW logic, with another that goes against ideas the sith have that we've only recently learned about in ep I, not to mention, force somone who never wants to have anything to do with evil(be it the empire or the sith) to sumbit to the authority of the Empire for a time to get their force training.
Message Edited by Everitt_Cage on 01-13-2005 10:31 AM
Chroma_Key
Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:58 am
#18
About the Dark Side being the only path to begin advancing in the force.
Yes I do support this because I feel that the spirit of the Era should be reflected in the "Jedi Path". These are the darkest times for the Force.
The village allows for all options by letting you start neutral and choose somewhere along the way if you will go with the light or dark side. The Inquisition is straight forward. We are evil and if you don't like it you die. We didn't ask you to join us. We forced you...
If someone breaks free from the dark side should be so rare and special, like a light jedi should be in the Rebellion Era. The ultimate goal of the game.
Everitt_Cage
Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:42 pm
#19
Alright, well my thoughts along those lines are these: You admit, that while it should be rare, light jedi will exist, correct? Now, by all logical thinking, what is to stop, these light(rebel) jedi, from opening their own academy to counter the empire's path to the force, where you can start out with the teachings of the lightside to begin with, instead of those of the dark and then comming to the light? See, no matter what way we come up with, if there is a chance to go light or dark, you will have some that do both. And if you have some that do both, the ones that become jedi or dark jedi BEFORE you do, from a story point of view, should be able to create a place(like I outlined in my idea for how it should be done) where a person can start to learn that light or dark side of the force from the beginning.
See, to haveANY more jedi than 2 in this time is wrong, but we're obviously going to have more than two. So the next question is what is the BEST way to going about doing the wrong thing? As I said, I think its wrong to force somone in a RPG to start dark then go light if they want to be a jedi, rather than have the choice which they want to start with to begin with. I have come up with the best solution I can, as to how it should fairly(and rationaly, by SW logic) be done, and it can be found here:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Forcesensitive&message.id=41483
Message Edited by Everitt_Cage on 01-13-2005 11:47 AM
Chroma_Key
Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:21 pm
#20
Everitt_Cage wrote:
the next question is what is the BEST way to going about doing the wrong thing
You don't accept an idea that appears in the expanded universe (Imperial Inquisition)for not making sense and not being canon(being taken from the Episodes)yet you suggest on the other hand augmenting the roles of the 2 jedi enclaves. I disagree that this is the best way to do the wrong thing.
The jedi enclaves have no background story or any flavor at all as they suddenly appeared on Yavin 4 out of thin air.
This is my opinion of course and if you'd like to further discussabout the enclaves we could do so on your thread. Like I said I consider them completely out of line in the Rebellion Era.
Everitt_Cage
Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:33 pm
#21
You see, you missed the point I was making in my first paragraph of my last post. In your idea you have a way to become force sensitive, then progress as a dark jedi, or leave the dark side and join the light. I've already said this, but, as far as background stories go, wouldnt it be completly realistic for the people who had taken the journey before you and became light side jedi to have set up their own counter program to the Empires force training program, in which you start off learning about the light side of the force?
In fact, lets just say your method was the in game way of becomming a jedi, shall we? It provides for a way to have both dark and light jedi. And lets just say, these dark and light jedi have each established enclaves for themselves, as we already have in game. If thats what we have, then why would somone, who wanted to become a light jedi, do your method of having to become and imperial inquisitioner and then leave the dark side, when there is already a light jedi enclave in existence, which they should logicaly be able to go to and train? And that is the whole basis for my idea of how the training should be done. Since we already have light and dark jedi enclaves in existence, why backtrack and do things like join the Empire, become a dark jedi, then leave the dark side and become a light jedi, when there is already a light jedi enclave you could go to for training in the light side from the beginning?
See, your method is as follows:
1. Prove yourself as an Imperial Inquisitioner
2. Start your training in the dark side of the force
3a. You decide the dark side is for you, and reamin loyal to the Empire and progress as a dark jedi
3b. You decide to leave the the dark side, and progress as a light jedi
Now, what I'm saying is arent all of those step unnecessary if people have done it before you(NPC people i mean) some becomming light jedi, some becomming dark, and set up light and dark jedi enclaves where you could go to from the beginning for training in the side of the force you want?
Message Edited by Everitt_Cage on 01-13-2005 01:43 PM
Chroma_Key
Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:25 pm
#22
Very good point, this is not what I am saying. Role playing wise if a character knows about jedi and wishes to become one, how could he accomplish it?
I am not suggesting he would applyto the Inquisition. This iswhat I am saying.
1. Get arrested (involuntarily)
2. Take the tests or die!
3. The tests defile him, turning him to the dark side (in a D20 story of mine, I had a candidatesearch fora rebel spy in the empire only to find outit was his father...)
4. Either carry on as an Inquisitor or abandon either to become a light jedi or rogue dark jedi
Also I don't accept that the light jedi could ever create a council or an opposing order to the Inquisition. They will be extra rare and with no knowledge of one another, those who already are light jedi plus the extra extra extra rare Inquisitors who break free from the darkside. They will be renegades running away from the Empire.
The only way I would settle with a light jedi order in the rebellion era would be if it was created by the players as a guild or just a fellowshipand not dropped by the devs from the sky.
Player initiative is acceptable. Otherwise it is a continuity vulgary.
Message Edited by Chroma_Key on 01-14-2005 12:38 AM
Heban-Otold
Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:40 pm
#23
I'd rather not join the Empire at ALL to be a light Jedi.If maybe you're a RPer, you would HAVE to add the part where joined the Empire...Maybe that Exar Kun Temple on Yavin IV could do something more than a pointless themepark. Or maybe another temple...It could serve the same purpose as the themepark-like trials you mentioned, but for light Jedi.
Message Edited by Heban-Otold on 01-13-2005 04:42 PM
Everitt_Cage
Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:51 pm
#24
"Otherwise it is a continuity vulgary."
Meh. Basicly anything that goes against this statement is a continuity vulgary: "After I am gone, theLAST of the Jedi will you be"
So basicly, since we ARE going to have Jedi in the game, and its IS going to be a continuity vulgary, the question is, should you FORCE people to have to start of on the dark side against their will in, even if they want NOTHING to do with the Empire, or create some story(like the devs have done already) which lets you choose your own path(That is what this WHOLE game is ABOUT. Creating your OWN story, not having one created for you)
Like I said, best way I could see it done would be to skip the unrealistic step of training at some village when there are already a light and dark jedi enclave out there. You should be training under jedi masters, not force sensitive refugees. Set up the enclaves as very long an elaborate theme parks and let your faction decide which you go to after being glowy. Once again, having Jedi in the game as a playable class is a continuity vulgary, but since we're going to have one, lets at least have one that will allow everybody to make their own choices about which side of the force they want to embrace, from start to finish.
Chroma_Key
Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:06 pm
#25
Everitt_Cage
You are saying that since harm is already done, let us proceed the way we like.
I'm saying, if it saves the story and the feel, reduce choices.
I play this game because it is a Star Wars On Line. MostlyI love Star Wars and I alsolove On Line RPGs. The story is more important to me than the mechanics. Others play because they enjoy the system, the professions, the infinite posibilities, the High-Tech feel, the option to play on ground and in space etc.
One thing is for sure though, SOE wants all of us playing this game.
Message Edited by Chroma_Key on 01-14-2005 01:07 AM
Everitt_Cage
Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:43 pm
#26
"You are saying that since harm is already done, let us proceed the way we like...The story is more important to me than the mechanics."
No friend. What I am saying, is that NO story anyone comes up with, be it the village, your Inquisition idea, or my Enclave one is correct according to the movies. The movies say that at the time Yoda died, Luke was theLAST Jedi. You can use EU material to support your Inquisition idea, but the existance of ANY Jedi, at ALL, is a blatent contradiction to the movies, and is therefore proved wrong. The Expanded Universe is supposed to EXPAND upon the ideas of the movies, not contradict them. When such a thing takes place, you can choose to accept what writers have written as true continuity, or what the movies tell us.(Either GL was right when he wrote his story, or the EU writers were right when they said he was wrongby contradicting him. I'm a SW fan, so I'm going to believe GL's story.)What I'm saying, is that if we ARE going to have a blatent contradiction to the movies in the game, let us have one that doesnt FORCE people to do things a certain way, but gives them the choice which side of the force to follow from the start.
Message Edited by Everitt_Cage on 01-13-2005 03:48 PM