Fencer Archive
Thread: Makeing Fencer's unique ( Future of Fencer )
Darkside_Isawa
Sun Mar 21, 2004 8:07 am
#53
I think that fencer should be faster than TKA because it uses quick jabs and not swings of the sword, a TKA has roundhouse kicks and backhand punches that should be alot slower than a quick jab of a saber. A Delay attack would suit fencer really good because it doesnt focuses on strength but on speed and agility so he should hit the enemy in certain body parts to couse more damage and cripple him. Also a fencer should have moe gracefull movements.. the animations so far are not suited for agile fencers in My opinion...
Diablish
Tue Mar 23, 2004 8:50 pm
#54
Let me start out with a little look back, i always had wanted to be tka, and i finally started doing it, but just tonight i walked into town and i should have figured EVERYONE IS A TKA, and it drove me crazy, i completely dropped tka and started doing fencer, from what i had seen it was an unpopular profession which is more what i would like to be part of. I for one know first hand that TKA is WAYoverpowered, being one myself, i took down a master fencer as a 1-2-1-2 tka with no problem, no armor, no buffs. I started doing fencer and the things i absolutely hate is the fact that with so many things being added and balanced, none of it ever has to do with us. Fencers need higher damage and a wider range of damage, it seemed weird to me that a fencers best weapon was a stick with a point at the top of it. Shouldnt it be a sword? Sometimes you wonder who they have working at SWG, and then how many people get fired once every mistake theyve made is realized... Speed on fencer is absolutely pathetic, as is damage. I would like to see me block another players weapon with my sword, ive never ever seen a fencer that only attacks and can only dodge to avoid being hit. I read about the new weapons having lower ones for lower people and higher for higher. My question is, does that mean the best of the weapons right now will get better? Or are they already at their best? Fencer isnt the only prof looked down on, pikeman is too. I say for once they nerf the hell out of tka's and do some work on some people who dont follow the profession trend.
Diablack (Corbantis)
SeekerJRD
Tue Mar 23, 2004 9:46 pm
#55
Thunderello, that isn't quite right. I've trained in a number of fighting arts (couple martial arts, boxing and fencing) and all of them use a good bit of energy, fencing doesn't have any advantage and takes a good bit of leg work. In fencing stance your legs are bent as you move quickly forward and backward, the lunge also takes a good deal of effort (lunging forward with legs and all). Further you note how rapier in front of you just extending your arm doesn't take much, I suggest you take a weight of a couple pounds and see how long you can hold it out in front of you and move it vigorously about (fencing weapons are light but not so light that you aren't going to notice after a while; also directed to others who think fencer should be faster, moving your arm is going to be faster then moving it with a couple pounds). If people want to add the realism argument then fencers should have an advantage against tk's from a bit of distance and be dominated by pike and heavy sword (if anyone disagrees I can go into the reasons why this would be so) but if the tk's get in range for punches they should dominate as fencers need some distance to work. If ya really want realism then any of the other melee prof's would dominate considering armor unless you added in some serious armor piercing for fencing weapons (then there'd still be alot of other issues to go into).
People also talk about dual wielding, dont think they grasp quite how it works in fencing. Offhand weapon would be a parrying dagger (real fencing with two swords doesn't make sense anywhere but in movies and video games which is cool, just don't bring in realism to the argument. Could also have a swordbreaker in the offhand. Dual wielding in the sense most are talking wouldn't be fencing as you would need two slashing weapons to do (think this is called florentine style, or at least one type is in europe and would either have a kind of whipping motion or scissoring motion). Think Mortarius had the right idea for dual.
What else did I want to mention...ummm...ah yes, don't want to give the wrong idea cause I am all for balancing combat professions (this is a game after all and it would be more fun imo, just don't try the realism argument because 1 ya aren't being realistic and 2 its silly cause its a game). The fact that our best weapon is a blunt instrument and we don't have any real stabbing weapons (which is the focus in most fencing; foil and epee with saber the exception). When fencing was for real it was about massive damage, finishing the opponent in one shot (thus current sport has scoring focus in the upper triangle area). A new stabbing weapon with monifilament point and heavy armor piercing would be nice (if ya want the realism argument heavy swords and pikes weren't sharpened that much as it would increase the chance of chipping, they were somewhat sharp but as much about smashing through that heavy armor as cutting it; due to the nature of the weapons ie weight they were used with a chopping motion rather than slashing, difference being locking the wrist, and chopping with an actual sharp weapon like a long sword would be a nono as it would likely get caught in armor, bone, etc).
Oh, speed argument because of spinning. Well spinning presents your back to your opponent (do I need to go into why this is a bad idea?). As for damage argument, tk's do have vk's (other argument's for damage but dont want to go into unless necessary).Also, fencing is about dominating center line in front of you and back and forth footwork (they tend to be weak in footwork in regards to actually moving around ouside of forwards and backwards).
There are martial arts that focus on center line also (jeet kune do being obvious one with elements of footwork directly taken from fencing). There are also ma's that focus on angular attacks rather than circular (stabs vs swings so to speak).
Tuskenssuck, ya but you keep using same hand to wield the blade and fencers are trained to transfer to offhand (at least places i've studied have) but that takes a valuable second.
To summarize an already too long post be careful when bringing in realism argument, ya need more than ideas from movies/books and even physics (there are details about the fighting styles themselves present and past that you need if ya want to bring it in without being silly...maybe all of us are silly regardless since it is a game with little reality already =p). Nod to ksiazek7 for havin theright idea there imo (tho wrong about speed =p). Also nod to Freth for some good points. Think thats everything
Jarek
Darkside_Isawa
Wed Mar 24, 2004 2:48 am
#57
Btw SeekerJRD i also think that if there would be an offhand weapon it should be something like a parrying dagger...
MasterLogan
Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:10 am
#58
Hmmm, just to point this out:
"Fencers" in SWG are definitally not modeled after european swordsman of the same name. They are Chinese Jian users.
Darkside_Isawa
Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:33 am
#59
Even if thats the case I still think it shouldnt be the way it is now...
TimSpork
Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:19 am
#60
Being a fencer in real life, the most important move a fencer can ever do is the reposte.About 80% of the hits we score in rl are from repostes and not from a direct lunge hit, or slash is your fencing with sabers. Master fencers in this game should have the highest counterstrike ability of any combat profession as that's what fencing is, parrying an incomming attack, taking the right of way and reposting or returning the attack. There should be a whole series of animations for this to help show the effectivenes of this. It would also help the fights against tkm's and we'd be blocking and hitting them on thier attacks.
Ryyger
Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:58 am
#61
How's this: a fencer is the epitaph of percision and form. TKAs have the speed, Swordsman have the brawn, give us the brain.
Status effects. A lot of them. We should be able to do things with the blade others can only dream of. Blind, dizzy, stun, knockdown, bleed (death of a thousand cuts anyone?) and now we need new stuff. A blow to the legs that forces the target to kneeling and removes their ability to run (not burstrun, run. As in they have to walk. Remember walking?) This imitates a dislocated knee or sliced ligament that forces the person into near immobility. And finally, disarm. Equipped weapon is unequipped and a timer prevents any weapon from being equipped for 15 seconds or so. Even TKs will feel the burn as those knuckles vanish.
Status effects. A lot of them. We should be able to do things with the blade others can only dream of. Blind, dizzy, stun, knockdown, bleed (death of a thousand cuts anyone?) and now we need new stuff. A blow to the legs that forces the target to kneeling and removes their ability to run (not burstrun, run. As in they have to walk. Remember walking?) This imitates a dislocated knee or sliced ligament that forces the person into near immobility. And finally, disarm. Equipped weapon is unequipped and a timer prevents any weapon from being equipped for 15 seconds or so. Even TKs will feel the burn as those knuckles vanish.
Kismet81
Thu Mar 25, 2004 12:32 pm
#62
I feel that fencers should just be a little more powerful.. that's all.. I like 'em exactly as they are now. I know a lot of people who gripe and don't like TKA's and they're blinding speed and ever offending "kd/dizzy" but look at is this way....
A TKM is SUPPOSED to be blinding fast. They don't have any kindof of ranged weapon! (sword, dagger, etc...) just their vibro.
Soa TKA has to rely on getting in and attacking fast! If you've ever seen any kindof martial artist such as Shaolin Monks.. or people like Bruce Lee.. their speed is astounding. And that's how they survive against people who are armed.
Secondly.. All the fuss about kd/dizzy is really getting out of hand. Fencers can dizzy/lunge same thing.. just not in the same move. Bounty Hunter carbines has a kd/dizzy.. nobody complains about them... Fencers have:
A: Two bleeds (althought crappy)
B: A stun weapon
C: Amazing kd/dizzy resist and dodge
D: Melee AND ranged defense
The only thing TKA's have is their speed and kd/dizzy.
So please... the TKA's are just fine in my opinion....
Yes the fencers do need to be stronger.. for Christ's sake they're cutting you to ribbons.. you'd think it'd do some damage.... But other than that... Fencers in my opinion far out-do the TKA's
Before you flame me.. I'm a TKM/Fencer so I know both worlds 
Darakeru
Thu Mar 25, 2004 3:34 pm
#63
Agreed. Heavy swordsmen, of the four melee professions in this game,have counterattacking skill as their defensive skill, yet they have the second-most unwieldy melee weapon group. Actually, whether a polearm or a **edit** sword, claymore, nodachi, etc. is a faster weapon is debatable: a fighter with a pole weapon grips it with both hands and a wide grip for better control. The pivot point of a heavy swordsman's weapon is right in his hands. The polearm wielder may exert more torque on his weapon shaft because it has a MUCH longer moment arm. Look at how quickly a fighter with a staff or a yari can recover from an attempted strike, spinning the haft of his/her weapon, then look at a fighter missing a swing with a claymore. Enough said.
All melee fighters are forced to dodge blows at some time in their careers, but fencers and unarmed fighters (stop calling them "martial artists," please - ALL melee fighters -and evenmost ranged fighters - mayqualify to be called "martial artists") thrive on the art of the counterattack. The developers realize that unarmed fighters mix a blend of blocking, dodging, and countering in their combat - they have "Defensive Acuity," a mix of all three. Why do fencers dodge blows, but NEVER block with their weapons or parry/riposte? And pikemen and heavy swordsmen DO? (Okay, so on that last comment, pikemen usually don't live long enough to block anything. They have it worse than do we fencers.)
Jigen Kendan, HoM
Fencer/Rifleman on Radiant
Darakeru
Thu Mar 25, 2004 3:35 pm
#64
Agreed. Heavy swordsmen, of the four melee professions in this game,have counterattacking skill as their defensive skill, yet they have the second-most unwieldy melee weapon group. Actually, whether a polearm or a **edit** sword, claymore, nodachi, etc. is a faster weapon is debatable: a fighter with a pole weapon grips it with both hands and a wide grip for better control. The pivot point of a heavy swordsman's weapon is right in his hands. The polearm wielder may exert more torque on his weapon shaft because it has a MUCH longer moment arm. Look at how quickly a fighter with a staff or a yari can recover from an attempted strike, spinning the haft of his/her weapon, then look at a fighter missing a swing with a claymore. Enough said.
All melee fighters are forced to dodge blows at some time in their careers, but fencers and unarmed fighters (stop calling them "martial artists," please - ALL melee fighters -and evenmost ranged fighters - mayqualify to be called "martial artists") thrive on the art of the counterattack. The developers realize that unarmed fighters mix a blend of blocking, dodging, and countering in their combat - they have "Defensive Acuity," a mix of all three. Why do fencers dodge blows, but NEVER block with their weapons or parry/riposte? And pikemen and heavy swordsmen DO? (Okay, so on that last comment, pikemen usually don't live long enough to block anything. They have it worse than do we fencers.)
Jigen Kendan, HoM
Fencer/Rifleman on Radiant
Darakeru
Thu Mar 25, 2004 6:12 pm
#65
Agreed. Heavy swordsmen, of the four melee professions in this game, have counterattacking skill as their defensive skill, yet they have the second-most unwieldy melee weapon group. Actually, whether a polearm or a **edit** sword, claymore, nodachi, etc. is a faster weapon is debatable: a fighter with a pole weapon grips it with both hands and a wide grip for better control. The pivot point of a heavy swordsman's weapon is right in his hands. The polearm wielder may exert more torque on his weapon shaft because it has a MUCH longer moment arm. Look at how quickly a fighter with a staff or a yari can recover from an attempted strike, spinning the haft of his/her weapon, then look at a fighter missing a swing with a claymore. Enough said.
All melee fighters are forced to dodge blows at some time in their careers, but fencers and unarmed fighters (stop calling them "martial artists," please - ALL melee fighters - and even most ranged fighters - may qualify to be called "martial artists," and still some unarmed fighters may not) thrive on the art of the counterattack. The developers realize that unarmed fighters mix a blend of blocking, dodging, and countering in their combat - they have "Defensive Acuity," a mix of all three. Why do fencers dodge blows, but NEVER block with their weapons or parry/riposte? And pikemen and heavy swordsmen DO? (Okay, so on that last comment, pikemen usually don't live long enough to block anything. They have it worse than do we fencers.)
Jigen Kendan, HoM
Fencer/Rifleman on Radiant
All melee fighters are forced to dodge blows at some time in their careers, but fencers and unarmed fighters (stop calling them "martial artists," please - ALL melee fighters - and even most ranged fighters - may qualify to be called "martial artists," and still some unarmed fighters may not) thrive on the art of the counterattack. The developers realize that unarmed fighters mix a blend of blocking, dodging, and countering in their combat - they have "Defensive Acuity," a mix of all three. Why do fencers dodge blows, but NEVER block with their weapons or parry/riposte? And pikemen and heavy swordsmen DO? (Okay, so on that last comment, pikemen usually don't live long enough to block anything. They have it worse than do we fencers.)
Jigen Kendan, HoM
Fencer/Rifleman on Radiant