Entertainer Archive
Thread: Healing XP slowing to a snail's pace?
Chessack wrote:
Why are they talking about weapon/armor props? Because we don't want to use real ones that do damage -- and we can't anyway because those require certs. So we will get "toothless" weapons that look cool and allow us to put on performances, but serve no function in battle.
Tralmek wrote:
The Devs are attempting to focus the entire game away from forcing interaction through negatives. They're doing this by encouraging people to get out and mingle more. People in this thread have stated that a good reason to keep Battle Fatigue around is because there is still wound healing for Doctors. It's true. Doctors have wound healing, but they're encouraged to get out in the field and heal damage, wounds, diseases, states, etc out there with people where there is not so much of a negative perception of the "downtime."
Chessack wrote:
... and inspiration buff clothes, if there even are any (are there?) would be totally useless to a master -- who is likely the only person who would want to buy such clothes -- since masters are capped or near-capped (to the point where it makes no difference) on inspiration speed.
The wound healing clothes act as "inspiration clothes" because it uses the same mechanic. They are basically worthless though. A leveler won't want to use them because it means they get less EH XP for buffing and a master has no need because we already do it so fast anyway.
... and you are spot on about the clothes. We'll still need to buy all the stuff we do from Tailors now (dresses, so on). I think Chianna is referring to "potential" money they could be making off of us by other "clothes like" things we might get as props such as headgear, jewelry, and "fake armor."
Honestly, the AS and WShave more of a right to freak out than the Tailors I think... but considering that no one currently makes these "fake" items at all, it really seems very nasty to me that anyone would begrudge these cool things going to the poor kids (Ents) just because they see potential to exploit the situation to make even more money than they already do.
We aren't really talking about a loss, we are talking about a potential gain for them with out addressing how we Ents would even be able to pay for this new service they want to charge us for. /tsk No one likes a selfish nasty money monger.
At least talk about the buffs we Ents could be providing you for income or a better way for us to earn income from the game directly like combaters do for their creds to pay for trade items if you are going to say we shouldn't be allowed to provide these things for ourselves.
*phew* Too much talking for this Dancer! I'm off to the Entertainers' Roundtable, hope to see you all there!
Panthu wrote:
No, Reeli! This is a good thing! There has never been anything fun about BF for either side, the one getting it or the one healing it. The fun thing is the interaction, but that can be done so much better by allowing Ents to be tradeskill buffers.
I'm afraid I must disagree with you here a bit, Panthu. From my own experience I was always happy to be able to provide a service to other players by filling a need. If that need was healing mind wounds or BF, I was glad that it gave people a reason to seek me out and provide a means by which I could help them. Some may call it an artificial reason, but it's certainly not an unrealistic one.
An obvious example to point out is the importance of troop morale in combat and the role that the USO plays in helping to maintain it. As a more mundane example, don't we all need to get away from the pressures of the office (or even school) and go home and relax our minds with TV or music or a book or a game?
I've always thought of our role in the game with BF and mind healiong as being a kind of microcosm of this sort of interaction. Granted the BF has always applied to only combat related weariness, but I thought it might be a good idea if the concept of BF were generalized to all professions as a more generic General Fatigue - one that basically makes you less effective at whatever it is you do whether it's crafting or fighting - even dancing (there is a definite difference between performance dancing and dancing for the pure enjoyment of it). I think the rate at which it accumulates needs to be properly examined so that players don't need to feel hampered by it, but that it encourages them to take a little downtime to rest up a bit once in a while before heading back off to do whatever it is they want to do.
Now it's not a perfect system, but I think the biggest problem with it is that it's never really been properly implented. I'm not sure what the average rate of BF accumulation was during normal combat play before the CU was, but it may have been about right. I think death accumulation was and is probably still high. Those players taking larger risks and ending up dying more probably end up with large accumulations in a short amount of time, and that would be a hassle to deal with. What I favor is a system that gives players a gentle encouragement to visit entertainers and take a break once in a while, but that if it builds up too much will affect a player's effectiveness in much the way things happen in real life. I think that's a reasonable 'purpose' for entertainers, and I think if done right, it shouldn't negatively affect other players play experience. Sure some still would complain about forced interaction but in a multiplayer game, interaction with other players is kind of the point of it.
As to the idea of buffs for non-combatants I'm definitely for that as well, and I think that's a great idea, but for combat players, I think that buffs are only part of the answer. Crafters would rarely be under pressure to have to start crafting right away. They generally have the leisure to craft when they want so they would have more freedom to come see us when they feel like, and stay for as long as they want. They can even come to the cantina and stay while they craft anything they want as long as they're properly prepared.
For combatants, though, there are definitely "combat prep times" and "combat downtimes". Buffs tend to fall under the category of "prep time" and the problem with that is that the combat player is often under time constraints to meet up with a group or to hurry off to start their adventure with as little delay as possible. This is often not condusive to a positive entertainer-combatant interaction as the entertainer can be seen as an impediment to the combat player getting to do what he or she wants to do (the mind buff fiasco from pre-CU). Even if the combatant enjoys the interaction, it will still tend to be limited as the combatant may not have much time to hang around. On the other hand, once the combatant has finished their adventure, gotten tired of grinding for a while or whatever, then the combat downtime phase begins and here is where I think there is the best opportunity for the entertainer-combatant interaction. Here is where the entertainer can really try to show off their performance techniques or engage the willing combatant in some discussion of their recent adventure or what's going on with the GCW or whatever. The concept of BF is really just sort of a facilitator that encourages these sorts of interactions to take place, and the interaction itself can be as complex or simple as both parties wish, but for combatants the best chance for it to happen, I think, is in combat downtime. I think if there is to be a link between combatants and entertainers this is the best place to have it. Without BF I'm afraid that there would be little interaction between entertainers and combat players unless there is some other idea put into place to replace BF with something positive that is gained by seeking out such an interaction.
(Oh, and Panthu, I know you already understand some of these ideas, but I went into the extra detail for the benfit of those who are looking in on this thread and may not.
)
JFreeman wrote:
Cutedge wrote:
Since you're removing BF or planning to do so, can we at least get confirmation that won't be doing the same to wounds?
I'm not even an entertainer. I came here trolling the dev tracker, but please don't remove BF. Make it heal faster, but don't remove the need for it.
SWG is unique because it forces interaction between players. You are required to find a doctor. You have to find an entertainer and watch/listen. You used to have to wait with others for shuttles. It promotes healthy interaction with fellow members of the community. Please don't change this.
Message Edited by Cutedge on 06-17-2005 01:19 PM
We want entertainers to be more like 'entertainers', and less like 'healers'.
In general, we don't want to force interaction. You should go to watch an entertainer because you want to, not because you have to. It'll be better for this to be a positive interaction ("I go see an entertainer to get something good") rather than a negative interaction ("I go see an entertainer in order to get rid of something bad").
just as a side note, in order to get my wounds healed these days, its easier for me to launch a droid and find a jedi than it is to find a doctor.
I think that many of us, including myself, are caught up in how things used to be. I still vehemently believe that BF, mind wounds, and mind buffing could have worked if they were implemented properly, and certain things like AFK was not allowed. However, I have also said, many times, that I didn't care if we had those things or not, as long as we had something that made us useful in the game world. So, in theory, the removal of BF really doesn't bother me at all.
And, as an entertainer, I have to say, my experiences have, for the most part, been better since the CU. Oh, there's a lot of stuff I absolutely hate about it, as a combatant. I mean, the fact that I'm a hybrid entertainer/combatant is insanely annoying because of combat levels, which I absolutely loathe. However, the entertainer side of me has been infinitely more enjoyable. The buffbots are gone, or the ones still there are useless and no longer respected. (YAY). Consequently, people have been more likely to go to real entertainers, I have gotten an exponential increase in tips because I play at the keyboard. And, the spam in the Cantinas has lessened to...well, at least a manageable level. I understand that some people have no use for inspiration buffs, but personally, I love them. I definitely take time out to buff myself if I'm in need of experience or faction. And, there are obviously a lot of people who appreciate the fact that I provide them, as evidenced by the increase in pre-combat tips. The only thing I don't really like is the 8 person group limit. And, perhaps increasing overall experience will rectify that, but there will still be a negative impact on group performances.
I've definitely never been opposed to crafting, and if you have to craft one line to get master, that certainly doesn't bother or seem like that much of a burden. I mean, we have been asking for props for a very long time, and if this is the way we get them, I have no objection whatsoever. And, adding more types of inspiration buffs is definitely a good thing. I remember in another dev post, not so long ago, that it was mentioned that things were going to be done for entertainers that play at the keyboard, to have an advantage over the afk'ers. Perhaps having specific profession buffs is the way to do that. After all, there are what...30 professions in the game? If each specific buff required certain types of moves or dances or whatever, then it would hardly be worth it for someone to set up a buffbot that cycles through 30 different buffs, or buy 30 alt accounts for each buff, or even for someone who wanted a buff to sit through 30 cycles. Heh. It'd be much easier to ask your friendly neighborhood dancer for the "rifleman inspiration buff" and have it done immediately. And, because of this, entertainers would be in a much better position to charge for services, way better than simply having a /covercharge. Of course, I have no idea if they're planning to do anything remotely like this. But, at the same time, we don't know all the details, and I think some people are reading too much into things that don't really have much to do with what JFreeman even said. And, even moreso, I tend to see more non-entertainers than entertainers saying that the inspiration buffs are useless. Well, if that is so, how come I'm doing so well now compared to the craptastic experience I had trying to mind buff in a sea of buffbots? There's obviously a market, I obviously have customers. And, well, that's really all I ever wanted as a dancer when it came to interdependency.
Panthu wrote:
Tailors have always made the most money off of Ents, this is true... but it's always been a one way relationship. It's never really been fair at all for the Entertainers.
JFreeman wrote:
Yes, it's too slow.
We want to change the 'healing' line to a 'props' line that allows you to craft and utilize 'stage props' (weapons, armor and so on that just look like weapons and armor). We're increasing the xp rate gain overall, and removing battle fatigue from the game entirely. We have some other enhancements to the entertainer professions that we want to do as well (profession-specific inspiration buffs for non-combat professions), but this is what is currently in development.
That's great news.
Battle fatigue was just a pain now.
If the Devs are attempting to focus the game away from forcing interaction through negatives, then why is it that you have to group in order to gain combat XP? And as far as Doctors being encouraged to get out into the field, that's how Entertainers were always intended as well -- you bring an Entertainer along with your group who dances or plays at the camp to heal your BF. Or at least, that's the way it was supposed to work.
Personally, I don't see a difference between having to see an Entertainer after a hunt to remove BF and having to see an Entertainer before a hunt to get a buff. If these buffs are going to be worth getting at all, then they'll quickly become just as mandatory as removing BF. Nobody's going to want you in their group until you've gotten one. And if they're not powerful enough to be required, nobody's going to use them.
And one thing I haven't seen brought up, so maybe I'm missing something -- but what sort of combat-related buff can Entertainers give that isn't going to chisel into the business of Chefs and Smugglers? Are these buffs going to be more or less important or expensive than food/drink/spice buffs? And if they do the exact same things, why go to a cantina when I can carry the buff around in my backpack? OK, they're going to have more buffs for crafters -- are these crafters who've never had to go to a cantina before going to like having to find an Entertainer before they can go to work? Because if buffed crafters turn out better products, they're going to have to go in order to compete.
Personally, I've always been a combat player and I don't mind heading to the cantina periodically to get my BF taken care of. It makes more sense to me RP-wise that I've been stressed out on the battlefield and need to go out and get a drink and watch a band play than it does thinking that I need to get out in the field -- but oh, wait a minute,maybe I've got time to goof off first byswinging by the cantina for a brewski and a dance.
Entertainers need to be given more things to do in the game, not fewer -- the idea that they're taking away a major reason people come to see them in the first place and adding a skill tree to allow Entertainers to do something they could do for free pre-CU (use props) just seems like a huge mistake.
(BTW, I'm not picking on you or your point-of-view, but your post just happened to bring up a lot of the issues I saw as negatives.)
Tralmek wrote:
The Devs are attempting to focus the entire game away from forcing interaction through negatives. They're doing this by encouraging people to get out and mingle more. People in this thread have stated that a good reason to keep Battle Fatigue around is because there is still wound healing for Doctors. It's true. Doctors have wound healing, but they're encouraged to get out in the field and heal damage, wounds, diseases, states, etc out there with people where there is not so much of a negative perception of the "downtime."
...
Instead of being a mandatory stop before getting back into grinding some more xp, as many combat players see cantinas now, with these new tools, the cantinas are much more likely to turn into the social hubs they were originally intended to be, because they will be the fun place to stop before returning to the grind. Crafters also will now have a reason to visit cantinas, since mind buffs never really helped them too much.
...
To answer concerns about props: I am hoping that any craftables given to the Entertainers will be new and unique schematics that it would make sense for us to make ourselves. Existing armor and weapons, I think, should still be crafted by armor and weapon smiths and then converted by the Entertainers. I will be plugging this hard in the Corr forum, since it returns business to the armor and weapon smiths (business that was lost due to the CU) and it makes sense for Entertainers to make such conversions to things they use for props.
One way to get rid of afk macros - get rid of the need to even have the profession.
JFreeman wrote:
Cutedge wrote:
Since you're removing BF or planning to do so, can we at least get confirmation that won't be doing the same to wounds?
I'm not even an entertainer. I came here trolling the dev tracker, but please don't remove BF. Make it heal faster, but don't remove the need for it.
SWG is unique because it forces interaction between players. You are required to find a doctor. You have to find an entertainer and watch/listen. You used to have to wait with others for shuttles. It promotes healthy interaction with fellow members of the community. Please don't change this.
Message Edited by Cutedge on 06-17-2005 01:19 PM
We want entertainers to be more like 'entertainers', and less like 'healers'.
In general, we don't want to force interaction. You should go to watch an entertainer because you want to, not because you have to. It'll be better for this to be a positive interaction ("I go see an entertainer to get something good") rather than a negative interaction ("I go see an entertainer in order to get rid of something bad").
My daughter (dancer Katie-beth Starr on Kettemoor) just read this thread and said "That's it, I'm respeccing." I told her to wait, but the question remains, "why be an entertainer now?" Taking away most of the reasons for entertainers to exist and giving them no reason to stay makes no sense at all. Inspiration may be fine, but a 10% exp bonus isn't much to make people eager to grind to master. Prop weapons, armor and costumes? What FOR? None of the Jedi that you have created care a fig for roleplaying; they just want to do their own grind at the expense of everyone else. No roleplaying for THEM (when was the last time you saw a Jedi that actually tried to HIDE what they were)? SinceLA wants EVERYONE to be a Jedi there is no reason for entertainers to roleplay...no one to watch them. I agree with the call to just eliminate entertainers and let us all do it as a hobby for no EXP point cost.
Or....(This is what I REALLY want); give them something Real to do again. I have always enjoyed watching creative dancers or musicians. I even was one of them, once upon a time. The Blue Brothers' act was a hit on Ahazi. We told bad jokes, we sang songs about the GCW; we had fun. But there seems to be less and less reason to stay entertaining. Too bad, too.
IkarusSunblaster wrote:
My daughter (dancer Katie-beth Starr on Kettemoor) just read this thread and said "That's it, I'm respeccing." I told her to wait, but the question remains, "why be an entertainer now?" Taking away most of the reasons for entertainers to exist and giving them no reason to stay makes no sense at all. Inspiration may be fine, but a 10% exp bonus isn't much to make people eager to grind to master. Prop weapons, armor and costumes? What FOR? None of the Jedi that you have created care a fig for roleplaying; they just want to do their own grind at the expense of everyone else. No roleplaying for THEM (when was the last time you saw a Jedi that actually tried to HIDE what they were)? SinceLA wants EVERYONE to be a Jedi there is no reason for entertainers to roleplay...no one to watch them. I agree with the call to just eliminate entertainers and let us all do it as a hobby for no EXP point cost.
Or....(This is what I REALLY want); give them something Real to do again. I have always enjoyed watching creative dancers or musicians. I even was one of them, once upon a time. The Blue Brothers' act was a hit on Ahazi. We told bad jokes, we sang songs about the GCW; we had fun. But there seems to be less and less reason to stay entertaining. Too bad, too.
I could be mistaken, but I think the idea is to give them something real to do again. Something withmore of a positive spin.
We're increasing the xp rate gain overall, and removing battle fatigue from the game entirely. We have some other enhancements to the entertainer professions that we want to do as well (profession-specific inspiration buffs for non-combat professions), but this is what is currently in development.
I agree that simply removing BF without expanding the abilities of the Entertainers would be a bad thing.