Entertainer Archive
Thread: Healing XP slowing to a snail's pace?
JFreeman wrote:
Cutedge wrote:
Since you're removing BF or planning to do so, can we at least get confirmation that won't be doing the same to wounds?
I'm not even an entertainer. I came here trolling the dev tracker, but please don't remove BF. Make it heal faster, but don't remove the need for it.
SWG is unique because it forces interaction between players. You are required to find a doctor. You have to find an entertainer and watch/listen. You used to have to wait with others for shuttles. It promotes healthy interaction with fellow members of the community. Please don't change this.
Message Edited by Cutedge on 06-17-2005 01:19 PM
We want entertainers to be more like 'entertainers', and less like 'healers'.
In general, we don't want to force interaction. You should go to watch an entertainer because you want to, not because you have to. It'll be better for this to be a positive interaction ("I go see an entertainer to get something good") rather than a negative interaction ("I go see an entertainer in order to get rid of something bad").
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 06-17-200510:35 PM
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 06-17-2005 10:35 PM
JFreeman wrote: We want entertainers to be more like 'entertainers', and less like 'healers'. In general, we don't want to force interaction. You should go to watch an entertainer because you want to, not because you have to. It'll be better for this to be a positive interaction ("I go see an entertainer to get something good") rather than a negative interaction ("I go see an entertainer in order to get rid of something bad").
Buffbots did not overrun the cantinas after the November 3rd buffing rules because they were needed "to get rid of something bad." Quite the contrary. Buffbots were created to be able to give away the "good things" 24 hours a day for a guild or power player.
Indeed, the sorry state of the cantinas in 2004 came about not because of the need to get rid of something bad. It came about because we as entertainers were being judged by our audience on the basis of how efficiently we could give out "good things," amusment value or attended status, notwithstanding.
Battle Fatigue encourages the active playing of this class. It also encourages the active participation of the audience. It does because it is something so easy and simple to get attended to, that both the audience and the performer are free to augment their experience in any manner they choose. And I do admit. Healing battle fatigue can be a real chore for an audience member.
...And that is exactly why a performer that does a great job at amusing the audience member is a highly appreciated commodity.
I want you to read this article about the art behind the keys, JFreeman. These professions, more than any others, required a certain technique. It was an art to entertain at the keys, and it was only because we had to fill in the time with something of our own design. The development staff gave us a precious gift. A platform to showgcase our talents, due to a shrewd and masterful mechanic in Battle Fatigue. A mechanic that worked in conjunction with the tip system toencourage the active playing of this class
Because this "dead time" was only dead if the performer was not active. Unattendees don't get tipped for healing Battle Fatiuge. Only the ones who fill in the space with something amusing do. And it is because by doing a good performance that is active, amusing, and fun, we make the Battle Fatigue that may have taken ten minutes to heal feel more like one minute.
I cannot tell you how many times I had healed a 900 Battle Fatigue patron, and have him stick around for 20 minutes longer than needed, only to say, "that was quick," and tip me a large amount of credits. And it is because with a mechanic like Battle Fatigue, it is so intuitive and stress free to attend to, that one really doesn't care about the speed and rapidity of the procedure as much as one cares about the quality and distraction value of the act before them.
I have beenplaying the entertainer professions for a long time, and trust me when I tell you that no playerchooses a dancer on the basis of how mathematically fast they can heal Battle Fatigue. Rather, they choose a dancer that heals Battle Fatigue on much different criteria, criteria that makes the procedure seem fast, whether it is actually faster in reality or not. Battle Fatigue is a live player's game, because the attempt to carry on a live and active performance is something no buffbot can do.
I cannot say the same about buffs, however. Patrons really could care less about the perceived speed of the buffing procedure as much as the actual speed of the procedure. And what is more is that they make it our responsibility as performers to keep track of their cantina time.
In fact, I am sure a close look at the history of these professions will show that entertainment buffs, or those "good things" the development staff seem to encourage, do nothing but promote routinized efficiency and non-immersive play. And in fact, I would argue that being live and amusing actually hinders the attempt to be a good entertainer with regard to buffing the audience. Because if I or any other performer is doing a good job and making the time fly, we are actually seen as being slow, inefficient, or not mindful of our audience's best interests. Buffing is a buffbots game, and macroed buffbots have the advantage in that game because their amusement value has nothing to do with getting the patrons out of the door with a big and speedy buff.
To summarize, if it is the intent of the developers to encourage the active playing of these professions, then I would highly recommend they keep Battle Fatigue, or create new mechanics that are similar to it. Because these mechanics actually encourage players to seek out those entertainers who are entertaining in truth, and not simply automated script runners and guild alts running as a second instance.
However, if it is the intent of the developers to encourage automation, buffbots, and discourage live players and entertaining cantinas, then removing Battle Fatigue is quite possibly the best way to do it. Because we will be players that will be forced to play a buffbot's game, andlive players will be like we were before the CU. We will resemble broken buffbots.
...And all of that care, craft, and art behind the keys that I and many other performers before me have perfected and have been adored for found in that Noolos article you read will no longer have a place in the game.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 06-17-2005 10:33 PM
Chessack wrote:
Non-ents have always seen BF as a kludge designed to force them to interact with Entertainers. They hate it as a result, and tons of antipathy toward entertainers was generated in the process. Taking BF away will be loved by almost all the non-Ents in the game, and as long as they replace our healing exp with something else for us, I see no reason why it would be a bad thing.
C
Hmm... I have a non-Entertainer (purely combat, actually) character, and I've never seen BF as any kind of a "kludge" - instead, it is a mechanic that greatly promotes player-to-player interaction, and encourages roleplaying.
I don't see a single reason why I, as a non-Entertainer should "love taking BF away". It's stupid enough that all the Med. Centers are completely empty because of the lack of Wound healing XP. The BF change does nothing but destroys the starwarsiness and "realism" of the world.
The only non-Entertainer-character-having players I can think of that will "love" this change are the 1337D3WD players with pwning-oriented combat-machine characters. And they, despite their numbers, don't really belong in a Star Wars MMORPG world anyway.
Not me. Most of my sales as a tailor goes to Combat people, but then again I became a tailor just before the CU hit ( I mean like the week before.....)
Panthu wrote:
Akaara wrote:
As a tailor I am a little miffed by this idea. I respect dancers... but dancers are a big part of our income. Why should they be able to make clothes and costumes and 'fake' armor???? Come on... don't give clothing stuff to other professions. Props are one things but please not clothes!
I don't really have a problem with Tailors making costumes for Ents and just getting certs, but it's not really fair unless Tailors also need Ents or Ents have a system to earn credits from the game directly like combat players do (missions that pay well and are fun).
Tailors have always made the most money off of Ents, this is true... but it's always been a one way relationship. It's never really been fair at all for the Entertainers.
Chessack wrote:
Where did he say clothes? He said weapons, armor "and so on." My guess is this does NOT include clothes.
Why are they talking about weapon/armor props? Because we don't want to use real ones that do damage -- and we can't anyway because those require certs. So we will get "toothless" weapons that look cool and allow us to put on performances, but serve no function in battle. It's entirely reasonable to me that entertainers should make those things.
Clothing has never required a cert so there is no reason for my dancer to make her own dresses. And I didn't see any indication that she will be doing so.
As for BE-ed healing clothes... I presume they will eventually replace those with BE-ed buff clothes, i.e., clothes with +25 accuracy buff duration mods or something.
By the way, as a tailor... You DO realize that basically all BE clothes for entertainers are utterly worthless right now don't you? Wound healing doesn't exist in game anymore, and BF healing is irrelevent because nobody really gets much BF anymore... and inspiration buff clothes, if there even are any (are there?) would be totally useless to a master -- who is likely the only person who would want to buy such clothes -- since masters are capped or near-capped (to the point where it makes no difference) on inspiration speed. I mean come on... who is going to buy clothes that let them give an insp buff in 30 seconds rather than 40? Or if they buy them, I can't imagine spending much on them.
So I am not clear on how BE-ed clothes aren't basically already useless to entertainers... and how things could get any worse from this change. My guess is, if you are still selling expensive BE entertainer clothing, you're selling it to entertainers who are ignorant and think it still helps post-CU... it doesn't.
C
Message Edited by Chessack on 06-17-2005 04:32 PM
Wound Healing helps Inspiration Buff, it makes it faster. However to be honest right now us Tailors can't actually make any BE modded clothing.
Your other points are very good
riotcontrol wrote:
Hmm... I have a non-Entertainer (purely combat, actually) character, and I've never seen BF as any kind of a "kludge" - instead, it is a mechanic that greatly promotes player-to-player interaction, and encourages roleplaying.
I don't see a single reason why I, as a non-Entertainer should "love taking BF away". It's stupid enough that all the Med. Centers are completely empty because of the lack of Wound healing XP. The BF change does nothing but destroys the starwarsiness and "realism" of the world.
The only non-Entertainer-character-having players I can think of that will "love" this change are the 1337D3WD players with pwning-oriented combat-machine characters. And they, despite their numbers, don't really belong in a Star Wars MMORPG world anyway.
Lantus wrote:
JFreeman wrote: Yes, it's too slow. We want to change the 'healing' line to a 'props' line that allows you to craft and utilize 'stage props' (weapons, armor and so on that just look like weapons and armor). We're increasing the xp rate gain overall, and removing battle fatigue from the game entirely. We have some other enhancements to the entertainer professions that we want to do as well (profession-specific inspiration buffs for non-combat professions), but this is what is currently in development.
Jeff,
This isn't right and you know it. Give the 'props' line to tailors. They're the ones with the 'Costumier' title (Formal Wear IV). And believe me, I REALLY want a fake mabari helmet back (in white, please) (see here). You want to give us costumes and props? How about fixingplayer theatres so we have an appropriate venue in which to USE said costumes and props? Smack Pex upside the head while you're at it. Half the things the Event Coordinator NPC's hand out should be available from entertainers. WE should be SWG's "cruise directors", not an NPC.
*obligatory /badfeeling*
*breathes*
Pronouncements from upon high about "how things will be" are not the way to get SWG's "socializer" quarter to jump on board. You've got to talk WITH us. Its what we do. Its what we're good at. (You're not afraid? You will be. Yooou.. will be.) Nobody's afraid of pissed-off entertainers. We can't even zerg-rush the devs like a bunch of naked wookiees in front of the Theed starport demanding armor. AND I'M NOT SUGGESTING WE DO (back off, Tiggs). You've read Richard Bartle's Designing Virtual Worlds, right? It was linked off the launchpad a little before the holidays last year. (Unfortunately, the links from that little thing don't appear to be archived anywhere so I can't provide one for the rest of the readers here, but .. look it up on Amazon, beg/borrow/buy a copy from somewhere, its a VERY interesting read.) Was that required reading for the entire development staff? Cause if it was, you're failing to appease the 'socializer' players, and are in the express-lane to a pink-slip. Yep, you've bent over backwards for the 'powergamers', AS YOU SHOULD HAVE. Don't get me wrong, they're the least patient of the lot that don't cancel after their free month is over and done with. Its the 'socializer' archetypes that keep the thing running! And you're nerfing us out of house and home! Maybe 'nerfing' is too strong a word. Neglecting isn't strong enough though. You've demonstrated no second thoughts about taking away from entertainers to give 'balance' to everyone else. Oh I'm sure some quiet voices gave stern looks at that monday morning meeting when it was decided to do away with mind buffs. I don't think you're all monsters.
I'm sorry, this moved from a well-crafted gripe to a full-blown rant, and the last thing I want to do is give you more reason to avoid interacting with us. Therein lies the rub though. We're growing impatient, and the longer it goes without some teamwork on entertainer issues, the more peeve'd we're gonna get. The more peeve'd we get, the less likely you are to want to talk to us. But you've GOT to. Suck it up. Leave us alone for too much longer and our numbers will drop far enough to start effecting the combat classes... or wait, is that the idea? That's a disturbing thought. Go stick your head in marketing's door and ask them with a straight face if they want SWG to die? Surely those couple million dollars a month from subscription fees aren't merely a drop in the bucket to the parent company? Maybe they are, maybe this is all just a grand experiment.
Hell no, I'm not threatening to quit. I'm trying to point a few things out here. I apologize for reading like I'm up in your face. You're one of the few devs I've felt my posting style actually made a dent on, and you deserve better treatment from the people you think you're trying to help. We just want you to know we don't think this IS gonna help in the end.
(final edit: Can we get a little love from the Lithium folks about keeping us logged in while writing rants like this? Forums logged me out by the time I'd hit post. Glad I copied the whole thing to notepad before attempting to edit as HTML, sheesh)
Well written Lantus.
You guys should listen to him Jeff. Lantus has been a calming influence on Wanderhome for a long time in the Entertainer parts of the game. He's a great guy.
riotcontrol wrote:
The only non-Entertainer-character-having players I can think of that will "love" this change are the 1337D3WD players with pwning-oriented combat-machine characters. And they, despite their numbers, don't really belong in a Star Wars MMORPG world anyway.
Yeah, but they rule the game (in terms of population proportions), whether we like it or not. They are most of what is left on the servers, since the devs have catered exclusively to them for 2 years.
C
Message Edited by Chessack on 06-17-2005 09:32 PM
SmedleyLlama wrote:
Being a Ranger should be enough to show a lack of desire for 1337D3WDness on my part.But how does BF increase the "starwarsiness" and add "realism" to the game?Why do the entertainer professions need an artificial crutch in order to be useful? Why wouldn't it be a better idea to give them abilities that make them desirable, rather than something that has to be forced upon the population? This is the part I don't understand.
It forces (OMG! FORCES! *GASP*
) people to interact, that's how. Even if it doesn't directly "force" you to talk to people, especially in a RP manner, or do anything else apart from making you visit the cantina once in a while. It instantly makes you an "extra" in the ANH Eisley cantina scene for a short amount of time. And that's a pretty major thing to accomplish.The Entertainer professions need an "artificial crutch" because, in general, most of the "random MMORPG powergamer" playerbase will never, ever do anything they don't have to do in order to somehow advance. And since this one is based on the actual Star Wars world, there should be game mechanics that promote "starwarsiness" instead of just plain old grinding - you can do the level-up thing in any other game, but this one wasn't supposed to be about that.
I fail to see how something that will be available from the Entertainer professions in the future will ever be "desirable" but not "needed" - the philosophy/mindset of most players simply doesn't allow for that. As shown in numerous examples in the SWG history, if it's good enough, it won't be just "desirable". It will become needed to compete and everyone will be using it after a short while. If it's not good enough, no one will ever use it. It's totally possible to balance the two in theory, but when you give it to the playerbase, the end result will be... well, not that good.
Anyway, killing stuff and stopping by the cantina every now and then is more "starwarsy" to me than killing stuff and... killing stuff. That's about it.
SmedleyLlama wrote:
Being a Ranger should be enough to show a lack of desire for 1337D3WDness on my part.
But how does BF increase the "starwarsiness" and add "realism" to the game?
Why do the entertainer professions need an artificial crutch in order to be useful? Why wouldn't it be a better idea to give them abilities that make them desirable, rather than something that has to be forced upon the population? This is the part I don't understand.
I do not consider Battle Fatigue to be auseless timesink that serves no purpose.
I would argue that it provides a much needed rotational mechanic that assures a player is not "hogging content" that other players are wanting to experience.
It also is a limiting factor that makes realistic strategic decision making possible. When we examine the reality of soldiers in combat, we find that troops cannot maintain full operational efficiency indefinately. Even the best troops will lose effectiveness over time in combat conditions. It is why the first rate armies and navies of the world take combat rotation, recreation, and morale issues very, very seriously.
And that is why if the intent of this simulation is to simulate a war in a persistant world that takes place over an extended period of time, then something like Battle Fatigue would have to be simulated in some way. Because unless there is some sort of measure of how long someone has been in the field, or how intense the experience was, then the concepts of "fresh troops" called up means nothing. The notion that a group of troops is so stalwart holding on far in excess of the norm has no foundation. In short, even if entertainers had nothing to do with removing Battle Fatigue, I would think if this simulation was to make sense, it would have to include something like it, for both the balance aspects, and the realism aspects.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 06-17-2005 11:56 PM
Chessack wrote:
riotcontrol wrote:
The only non-Entertainer-character-having players I can think of that will "love" this change are the 1337D3WD players with pwning-oriented combat-machine characters. And they, despite their numbers, don't really belong in a Star Wars MMORPG world anyway.
Yeah, but they rule the game (in terms of population proportions), whether we like it or not. They are most of what is left on the servers, since the devs have catered exclusively to them for 2 years.
Well... I'm still here.
The thing is - you can force those people to play in a starwarsy manner by just encouraging them to do starwarsy things in order to accomplish the typical 1337 goals. They won't mind. If faction rank could be achieved faster than faction farming by, for example, wearing full Stormtrooper armor, not talking in spatial except in pre-designed sentences, and patrolling a NPC city, you'd have realistic-looking ST patrols all around. Etc.
I really wonder why the game designers are doing the exact opposite, making people who want to play Star Wars play it by the 1337 rules, instead of the other way around. /shrug
PoetDancer wrote:I do not consider Battle Fatigue to be a useless timesink that serves no purpose.
I would argue that it provides a much needed rotational mechanic that assures a player is not "hogging content" that other players are wanting to experience.
It also is a limiting factor that makes realistic strategic decision making possible. When we examine the reality of soldiers in combat, we find that troops cannot maintain full operational efficiency indefinately. Even the best troops will lose effectiveness over time in combat conditions. It is why the first rate armies and navies of the world take combat rotation, recreation, and morale issues very, very seriously.
And that is why if the intent of this simulation is to simulate a war in a persistant world that takes place over an extended period of time, then something like Battle Fatigue would have to be simulated in some way. Because unless there is some sort of measure of how long someone has been in the field, or how intense the experience was, then the concepts of "fresh troops" called up means nothing. The notion that a group of troops is so stalwart holding on far in excess of the norm has no foundation. In short, even if entertainers had nothing to do with removing Battle Fatigue, I would think if this simulation was to make sense, it would have to include something like it, for both the balance aspects, and the realism aspects.
A very good point about the realism/balance of "combat downtime" here. But it's rather obvious that the game designers don't make these changes from a similar point of view. This is not something they want to do with the game (anymore).
The days of complex game mechanics that actually strive to emulate real life or a fictional universe are pretty much gone, I think, and not just in SWG. The trends in the gaming industry have become quite similar to the trends in the movie industry in the recent years, and it's hard for me to say if it's caused by different audience demands, or if the audience demands are gradually shaped by what the industry has to offer. One way or the other, things are... very different from what they used to be.