CUEmu - Thread Posts

Beery

Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:04 pm

"Have you ever thought that the macros aren't the issue so much as people AFK macro because some aspects of the game just are not very fun? Whether it be entertainers or crafters, there are some aspects of the professions that are just too repetitive and not rewarding enough. If you make these aspects more entertaining (no pun intended) for the player, then the AFK macroing will greatly decrease on its own."

I doubt it. It's not because entertaining is boring that players play the game AFK. Entertaining is NOT boring, and anyone who says it is just isn't wired to be an entertainer. When I started I toyed with playing as an entertainer AFK. I didn't do it because entertaining was boring. I thought entertaining was great fun, and I still do. But my thought process was this: "hey, if I have to go to work or sleep I may as well play AFK while I'm at work or asleepbecause it will help me to level, and I'll be able to do more stuff when I've levelled". The interest level was irrelevant. Heck, if you find the job boring why AFK it? This is no longer the hologrind so that excuse doesn't apply. If you find it boring as you're levelling you're going to find it just asboring as a master. Better to find another career.

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Since June 2004, running one of the game's first completely nonviolent characters. Testing the limits of non-combat MMORPG play and trying to have fun into the bargain (although the developers make it difficult).

Combat is no longer compulsory.

NewJedi

Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:13 pm

#93

Glad to see you posting here, Gordon. Reassuring words.

Selandria

Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:22 pm

#94

Beery wrote:

This is no longer the hologrind so that excuse doesn't apply.

Oh the hologrind is very much alive and kicking. I'd even say it is worse now since pub 10 than it has been in a long time. They just traded one version for another. I've heard people brag countless times in spatial as they're looking to get into the group and go AFK that they are just doing it to get 'free' xp for conversion for jedi xp while they are away at work, sleeping, whatver. (Yes, some peopleargue with me in-game about the futility of this given the rate at which we gain xp, and the conversion ratio for entertainers. But it's 'free' xp --even if it is slow, it is stillsome xp ratherthan no xp.)

People want some interim fixes -- here's my wish: remove all forms of entertainer xp from jedi conversion. (Yes, I know this will make me very unpopular with some of you, but I find the comments about removing our buffing ability just as equally distasteful.) (My real wish of removing Jedi entirely from the game as a player-playable profession will obviously never happen...)Remove our xp trade-in andyou'll eliminate anywhere 50% to 75%of the AFK macrotainers we have today. The remaining AFKers are then primarily combat players levelling up an alt tobuff themselves whenever they want. Very few of these turn into full-fledged buffbots (at least on Eclipse), but even as a buffmule they are taking away from people who come to see us -- just in smaller numbers. This portion of the AFKers won't go away anytime soon -- probably not until the combat revamp where I suspect our ability to buff mind will be nerfed into uselessness (not that they will remove it per se, but that all buffs (docs and ents both) will bereduced so much that getting them will only be 'worth it' in a very small percentage of cases).Only a tiny fractionof the people AFKing are genuine entertainers in training trying to level up as fast as they can by doing it even when not there. I know several of those that once they made master don'tAFK any more. It's not that entertainer is boring to them, it's that (like every other profession in this game), you have to be master to really have the profession shine.

I'm certainly not the first person to say this, but the devs really need to re-think the way they allocate skills to non-master. Many professions, most specifically the crafters, are hampered to the point of utter inability to be productive/competitive/whatever until they are master. Entertainer is nowhere near as bad as the crafter professions in this regard -- but it does exist for us as well. And no I don't have any great suggestions on how to rebalance the non-master vs. master entertainer... There is no easy 'fix' for this. (Giving some low-level dances people actually WANT to do instead of cringe at would be a start, though. Music has a bit of this, too, though to a lesser degree than dancer has. *cough*starwars1*cough* /cringe)

I also agree with the others that removing the /join command from macros would help a lot as a short-term fix. Yes, it will break a lot of the casual buff-bots (the major ones will just use 3rd party programs to click on the 'Accept' button to the join request). I do NOT however want the ability to group-buff removed. With the time it takes us to buff, the only way we can keep up is by grouping people. If they remove group buffs, they need to dramatically change the way and/or time in which we give buffs. A lot of combat people will all scream about "I can't find my buffs". Well, you know what -- your "god mode" buffs+90% armor solo group days are numbered already with the combat revamp -- it might be a good thing for you to start learning how to play without them. Also, if you eliminate the buffbots and the AFKers, you will see more real entertainers start to come back to fill the void. Combat players seem to feel it is their right to have instant, free access to mind buffs and they are wrong,just as it is notmy right to demand they hand over any mind enhancement tapes they loot for free. People travel for doc buffs, why should they not for mind buffs?

Anyway, I understand that 'fixing' us is a complex issue and take time. But I too also feel some little things need to be done NOW instead of later. Alas, I don't have much hope for that. Not with the current stance that the CSRs have shown where they are defending buttbots over live players... That the CSRs have done nothing to the people running buffbots that have started harrasing live players... That, SOETyrant, is a mixed message you *NEED TO FIX RIGHT NOW*. If you make no technological changes at all, make a social change -- change the EULA to say unattended gameplay is against the rules and a bannable offense. The way it reads now, its only 3rd party macros that are against the rules -- this needs to change to include in-game macros exploited for unattended gameplay. Oh, but wait... This was already suggested and shot down which is why I have such a hard time believing the sincerity with which you state you want unattended gameplay to cease...

Please keep in mind I am trying to be constructive here, not a whiner. I also realise this post will put me in the 'enemy' camp to all the combat people who think they have a right to buffs and can't have fun without them (which is just being selfish -- that somehow it is ok that entertainers are robbed of their fun by all the AFK bots and macrotainers, just so long as the combat people aren't hindered in their own gaming). I am not going to quit, not anytime soon. I, with all the problems entertainer has, still have fun with it. But I've seen many of my friends quit, and that sadens me.

Sel

Selandria
Master Musician / Master Dancer / Master Image Designer / Master Entertainer / Smugglers' Alliance Ace Pilot

Co-founder and co-leader of Twin Suns Entertainers (TSEnt)
Guild hall: Located in the city of Mos Omenos, Tatooine at -2707, -6518

akothas

Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:50 pm

#95

MyT_Chicken wrote:

Thought I would ask for myself. I'm not gonna get to worked up about it, and I would hope none of you do either. Macro's will die....eventually.

Clicky

Translation:

"We have talked about this some in our little group here, and ya see, if we did that we would have a little over 1/4of the population on each server cancel their subscriptions because 1 out of 4 is a crafting/entertainer bot of some kind. And if you take that bignumber of subscriptions gone and multiply it by $15 then we would have to completely shut down SWG due to lack of funds. So many people are leaving for other games I am hoping we have enough to still do the combat revamp....

...more to come"

_________________________________________________
Phrixus -- Eraok -- Rimar
Elder Jedi -- Elder BH -- NGE Structures
rN Phrixus - The Dark Lord of Tempest Nr
_________________________________________________
g.~~[{{{{{{{{{ m~~gXX~~q}}}F~~\~~gggggggggggggggggg~~)
.Dark Saber Duelist.

Beery

Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:57 pm

#96

"Oh the hologrind is very much alive and kicking. I'd even say it is worse now since pub 10 than it has been in a long time."

But what about the wider point that people will basicallyplayAFK 'because they can'? AFK macroing wasn't invented as a byproduct of the hologrind. It was the most talked aboutproblem on the entertainer-related forumsfrom the very day the game was released. The hologrind merely added insult to injury as far as AFKing was concerned.

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Since June 2004, running one of the game's first completely nonviolent characters. Testing the limits of non-combat MMORPG play and trying to have fun into the bargain (although the developers make it difficult).

Combat is no longer compulsory.

Etdentarie

Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:24 am

#97

I just want to thank Tyrant for posting. I know it's been said many times in this thread, but you honestly have no idea how much of a morale booster it is. I still completely love playing Freya and don't see that ever not being the case, but it is still depressing to see the entertainer profession forums go ignored all the time. This small bit of explaination and reassurance will do wonders around here. Thanks again!

Message Edited by Etdentarie on 11-05-2004 02:25 PM

Freya

Dancer/Musician/Image Designer

Dancers do it on their toes/Musicians do it with instruments

Image Designers do it with everyone

CloverRidge

Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:27 am

#98

For the person saying this will make crafting harder Tyrant said UNATTENDED macroing. You should not be crafting unattended anyway since you still have to click on the resources to add them.

For the people saying it's Required for combatant stuff this is bunk too. I would push more to have your stomach empty on death since it is silly that after you die your stomach doesn't empty.

Brandy and Ahrissa are adequate to buff your mind stats. Too bad you have to pick and choose what you want to eat and drink but you can't have everything so pick wisely. I am a Doc/Rifleman so I can always just use Brandy and Ahrissa and don't worry about other food and drinks for resistances since I can remove affects but that is a bonus of being a Doc. What I lack though are much in the way of defenses. It's a trade off.

Even having a second account that can buff my mind I never do. I have yet to find it necessary for PvE or PvPer.

And if you think it's different because I'm rifleman and hit at range......I start every duel toe to toe with a melee to let them get their shots in first which is usually a knockdown/dizzy and have yet to lose.

I'm not tooting my own horn but it is possible to do very well without Entertainer mind buffs.

And thank you for posting Tyrant it is great to hear!!

Ytoavee Oases

Corbantis

Ytoavee Oases
Corbantis

DanceRulez

Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:31 am

#99

Wow! This a quite a shock this morning, but I'm sooo glad to open up the dev tracker and see posts in the *gasp* Dancer forum! Yea! Thank you so much for taking some time to not only give us some straight answers, but reaffirm the dev team's commitment to our professions. Of course we want our problems fixed now, but it is very heartening to know that you guys do have it somewhere on your plate to work on as soon as you can, and that it's not just neglected in the background somewhere gathering dust and cobwebs.

I would strongly request of you, however, to really consider implementing some interim changes of some sort to change the dismal state of our game right now. You say that you don't like the AFK state of the game, and I assume that you don't support buffbots. Well don't then. Make some change to diminish or eliminate buffbots now. Remove the /join command. Remove passive buffing. Heck remove buffing altogether for now, it's not like it's doing us much good anymore. Work with the CSR's to have them help us to get the bots off our backs. If a player wants to mess with a bot's macro - let them. It's the bot's fault for accepting anyone who gives them an invite. All they have to do if they don't want to be messed with is take out the /join from their macro!

If the buffbot "customers" complain about it, tell them it doesn't concern them. If the bot owner wants to give them a free buff, then the bot owner had better be there at the keyboard to insure that it happens, otherwise all bets are off. It seems to me it's all in the interpretation of the rules, and why not interpret the rules in favor of the people who are trying to *play* the game. Giving us this one tool could allow us to chase the bots out of the public cantinas if nothing else, and let them crawl back to some NPC city or house somewhere to live out their remaining days. That in and of outself would provide a fair degree of satisfaction.

Anyway, thank you very much for taking the time to level with us, Tyrant, though, after this I just can't think of you as any kind of tyrant.

You're my favorite dev! Uhhh - right up there with Tiggs, that is.

I do wish it hadn't taken so long or for the morale in here to have gotten so low for this line of communcation to be opened up, but I'm glad it did, and I hope it continues. I know you can't come in here to answer our every little question, but at the very least some response to our most pressing ones I think is reasonable at the minimum. It certainly gives me more to think about and more reason to stay even even I maybe decide to do more of other things for a while. There are other things I like about the game, but I would have seriously considered quitting based solely on the way this profession was being treated. Here's looking toward a brighter future, and the patience and determination to see it happen.

Shi'ann Dinova
Hot Pink Twi'lek of Mystery

Xyrdre

Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:33 am

#100

I am finally seeing the beginnings of a good vehicle for constructive and positive change. Between Tiggs' and Tyrant's recent posts here, I now know that we have been heard.

I never personally took the original paraphrased statements as anything other than an acknowledgement that the devs understood that the entertainer professions are in serious, serious trouble - an acknowledgement that things just weren't working out at all in the existing model for our playstyle, nor for our overall integration into the whole of SWG. I am not disheartened by the idea of a wait for meaningful change - the underlying problems in the entertainer professions' are not trivial, and cannot be repaired with a simple patch or fix. I believethat the very foundations of the entertainer professions, and our roles here in game, should be re-evaluated and adjusted based on what has been learned. Andfrom the sound ofthe communication that we've been receiving, it appears that the devs agree.

There are symptoms that could betreated in the shorter term, and I have seen statements from the dev team that there will be such kinds of treatments carried out, not just for entertainers but for professions across the board. This is good.

I think that the period between now and the unveiling of the Entertainer Mark II model will be a rocky one... we may be drifting without much direct purpose for a time. Though, with the current state of the entertainer game, this is not too far off of what we currently experience, but with the added knowledge that we are really moving towards something better. I love playing an entertainer, even now. In our current state, I can only love playing an entertainer by letting go of the broken role of healer/buffer. I dance and play music to entertain... myself, my friends, and anyone else who cares to share in the fun. I can continue to do that while reshaping a new, and integrated role, for entertainers everywhere.

I look forward to adding whatever contributions that I can to help shape that future, that next step in the evolution of these 'exciting new professions in MMO gaming'. I am, for the first time in a long while, genuinely optimistic.

Note to the otherDPT's: If this red-tag communication keeps up, you know we'll allbe out of jobs. This is the best way that I could think of to be fired.

Deila Karlossi , Blue Glowie of Dancers, and become more powerful than you could possibly imagine...

Dreamland

Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:57 am

#101

Well as a newer member of the team Mr Walton you certainly talk the talk, I guess only time will tell if you are able to walk the walk. I sincerely hope that is the case and you are able take this game in the direction that you claim. You apear to be someone with vision and i think that game design requires a certain level of dictatorship to be sucessful.

Design by comitee doesn't result in visionary design process. That is aparaphrase of aquotefrom John Romero.Who despite his faliures in running his own company, I believe was right about that point. I truly hope that you are able to succeed inbeing the creativeinfluence on this game you are atempting to be.

Message Edited by Dreamland on 11-05-2004 01:05 PM

Dreamland

Sat Nov 06, 2004 2:36 am

#102

Beery wrote:

"I do not agree that they are a neccesity for pve either.Having done every type of pve there is without mind buffs, it is not only possible but easy."

From July '03 until July '04I was running a primary character who was a pistoleer. Now as any pistoleer playerwill tell you, the pistoleer specials are so screwed up that their best special is not even in the pistoleer tree - it's Bodyshot2 and it's in the Marksman tree. Anyway, even with pistoleer's defects, I never once used a mind buff, and I never onceused a buffbot, and I only played solo. You definitely don't need buffs for PvE, and anyone who says otherwise is either lying, or they don't know what they're talking about. As you say, it's not only possible but easy. Buffs are needless excesses - they are the cocaine of the SWG universe. Like Cocaine, all they do is make you think you're better than you are for a short time, and they make you hate every minute that you're not using.

Actualy whenI did pistoleer, probably last september or octoberI don't believe there were even doctor buffs. Memory is somewhat hazy on exact time doctor buffs became availableas it was over a year ago and was my first combat profession. At any rate i did it without doctor or mind buffs as well. Just good old tattoine sunburns and my rock beetle rocky. Yes everyones rock beetle was named rocky... Took me 3 weeks or so as i remember and was a great deal of fun, lots of old fashioned groups, and some solo play with a tank pet, but you couldn't realy tank much with a rock beetle.

And to the other post yes the other spamming afkers would remain but they are far less objectionable to deal with for the next 6 months than buffbots.

Message Edited by Dreamland on 11-06-2004 01:26 PM

MetalJedi

Sat Nov 06, 2004 3:13 am

#103

Wow.

I have obviously been reading the wrong forums. I have been more engaged by several discussions in the entertainer forums over the last few days than by most posts I have seen since the first day of Galaxies.

I am essentially a hybriduber-casual player. Because I am a Star Wars nerd, I got myself involved in the beta, and I have been playing the live game since day one. I have only mastered four professions, and I'm not even close to having a Jedi character.

I play mostly solo, and I am mostly combat oriented. I have mostly played Pistoleer and Smuggler since launch, so I obviously have no problems playing professions with problems. However, I have always dabbled in entertaining. There is just something fun about it. I like to play those stupid repetitive little songs. I have never used an AFK macro, and, as a consequence, I have never even reached the fourth box in the music branch of the entertainer tree.

Some of my best play experiences have been as an entertainer. Although I have never really been part of a band, I have had a great time playing with other people and chatting up the audience. I even had the chance to play with the FFW in a Tatooine camp once upon a time.

I often feel intimidated by live musicians. I am self-conscious about asking people to play an easier song just so that I can play along. I frequently find myself playing alone in a corner to heal my BF, and I am jealous of the Masters with their fancy instruments and mind-boggling effects. I wish I had a droid that could make fog.

As an extremely part-time entertainer, I have nothing but contempt for the AFK macro. I have to agree with the other recent posters who have argued that mind-buffs are not really necessary to achieve anything you might want to do in the game. In fact, I didn't even start wearing armor until this past August. I have probably used a grand total of five mind buffs since the game started. With a mostly solo character who rarely buffed or used armor, obviously I didn't make much of an impact on the hologrind. But, I did have fun. Maybe I haven't conquered the Corvette, or trashed the Mandalorian compound, but I never felt like there weren't fun things for me to do. I grouped when I could find people that I thought were fun to group with. I even joined a player city for several months (and ultimately ran it as a non-politician character - that was a trick!).

But, in all that, I never gave up dabbling in entertaining.

I am still in awe of the people who have committed to this style of play. I don't think I could do it full-time. It's a task that hasn't even been attempted in any other game like this. So, I hope that those of you who love it will stick with it.

When I am alone in the middle of the night playing my slitherhorn, I am wishing that I could play with a band full of Masters before a packed audience ready to give up their hard-earned credits, because nothing is more entertaining than a dedicated group of live musicians and dancers who know how to put on a good show.

This is by far the longest post I have ever made. But, there was something in this thread that really spoke to me.

Please have some faith that the Devs will give Entertainers a more balanced and compelling role in this wonderful virtual universe. The game would be a much poorer place without you.

If you ever see a lone blue Rodian pathetically squeaking on his horn, I would be honored if you would offer to play with me.

Neeko on the Ahazi server

Message Edited by MetalJedi on 11-06-2004 02:53 AM

AudioOrgana

Sat Nov 06, 2004 3:24 am

#104

SOETyrant wrote:

Removing unattended macroing isa priority item. But it's not simple to do, so it needs both a fair amount of resources and time.. I will push to get it in progress soonest is what I can promise.

I hope one of the reasons is that you are going to also need to solve the root causes of AFK play, not simply the behavior itself.

Sure, there will always be a segment of people who want "something for nothing", but there are also valid reasons for AFK play, mainly the rather boring XP grind for both performing XP (/flourish, wait 10 seconds, /flourish) and healing XP (which is unreliable to accrue, at best) and the simple availability of entertainers.

We have a hundred or more Cantina's per server, once you count all the NPC city ones and player-placed Cantinas, and there simply are not enough entertainers to cover even a small fraction of them. Couple this with the fact that in order to progress you need more people watching you, and anyone going up the tree is just about required to go to Coronet or Theed (though this has gotten better with larger populations in secondary cities, like Mos Eisley, sprouting up near pilot trainers).

Because the people need XP, that's where they go, and it forces players who want healing to go to those major cities, leaving the rest of the Cantina's worthless except as pretty decorative displays. This is why you will find guilds and other players who set up shop in player city cantina's AFK - because it's a needed service and the game mechanic right now forces everyone to go to lag-a-licious major cities just to get a heal.

Before you eliminate AFK play, you need to address the underlying issues of why people do it, and in many cases it's not just to get XP, it's to serve players that otherwise would have no choice but to jump on a ship and change planets (to the same few Cantinas every time) just to get a heal. The issue of boring, not-very-rewarding XP needs to be addressed as well, or the problem with be exasperated - there will simply be a lot less active entertainers and even less people to serve the need of mind healing.

AO

Entertainer Archive

Thread: I asked...I got an answer. :(